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Bellinelli v Korver Redux

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Post#41 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:56 pm by Rerisen

Yeah Ronnie was a bad jumpshooter he was also brilliant defensively, which more than made up for his jumper, especially when Rose was on the floor. It was when he missed easy layups or baseline shots where he only turned into a liability.

Korver helped win all kinds of games vs tough defensive teams for us, including vs Miami in the regular season. No he didn't have a great 5 game series vs them, but using that to castigate a guy's whole career would be pretty dumb, and would make Derrick Rose look even worse by comparison. Virtually every player on our team had severely diminished offensive performance in that series.
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Post#42 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:58 pm by musiqsoulchild

Rerisen wrote:2011, the only year Bogans was on the team. That he wasn't brought back despite being cheap made it pretty obvious what a band-aid he was that season.

20011 starters had 419 minutes with Bogans, 70 with Korver. and 144 with Gibson in too. Playoffs 251 with Bogans, 114 with Korver. And correction those last two were actually a wash performance wise. It was the Gibson+Korver one in the playoffs that did better. But says a lot that we were still as good with Kyle even missing shots.

Not that we need these specific data sets really, Korver has been a bigger impact player than Bogans his whole career, and continues to be this year.


Re, we dont really need any stats evidence to show that Korver is better than Bogans.

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Post#43 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Tue Jan 8, 2013 11:59 pm by MVP Rose

Belenelli is significantly better.
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Post#44 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:09 am by Flopper

Rerisen wrote:Right now I'd still take Kyle, better for the offense, better for Rose, and not much difference on defense. But we'll see how Marco does with Rose and/if when he gets the starting job once Rip is dealt.

It'd be great to have the spacing that Korver provides, but I think Marco can provide something even more beneficial on the offensive end, which is someone who can create shots and add a layer of complexity for opposition on the defensive end.

Instead of relying on one guy to be the primary scorer and create shots for the rest of the team in crunch time, we can mix it up and give Derrick more time playing off the ball. This will keep him fresher at the end of games and reduce the wear and tear throughout the season. It'll also let Derrick develop an underutilized portion of his game and limit the effectiveness of the "Jordan rules" type defenses teams like to use against him in the playoffs.
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Post#45 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:10 am by GetBuLLish

Per 36 numbers this year:

A: 14.3 Pts 2.0 Ast 2.6 Reb 1.0 Stl 0.1 Blk 1.4 TO 41.2% FG 41.5% 3pt 87.7% FT 55.1% TS 49.2% eFG

B: 13.1 Pts 2.1 Ast 4.7 Reb 1.3 Stl 0.6 Blk 1.1 TO 42.9% FG 43.3% 3pt 83.9% FT 61.3%TS 59.1% eFG

Somehow, multiple people believe that Player A is "significantly better" and that it's not even a question. Pretty foolish, IMO.

Anyways, I've always thought that Korver was the better player for this team. I'm pretty close to being on the fence now, with a very slight leaning towards Korver still. We'll really find out the answer come playoff time.
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Post#46 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:11 am by the ultimates

Rerisen wrote:Yeah Ronnie was a bad jumpshooter he was also brilliant defensively, which more than made up for his jumper, especially when Rose was on the floor. It was when he missed easy layups or baseline shots where he only turned into a liability.

Korver helped win all kinds of games vs tough defensive teams for us, including vs Miami in the regular season. No he didn't have a great 5 game series vs them, but using that to castigate a guy's whole career would be pretty dumb, and would make Derrick Rose look even worse by comparison. Virtually every player on our team had severely diminished offensive performance in that series.



I'm point out the fact that he had one series over the last two years in the playoffs that he made shots. Yes the Bulls as a team did struggle that whole series but Korver's problems began when they played Atlanta. Korver is a one dimensional player role player who didn't make shots in the last three series he has played that is not castigating him that's pointing out lack of production especially when he is never asked to create or initiate offense.
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Post#47 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:13 am by Rerisen

prokchip wrote:It'd be great to have the spacing that Korver provides, but I think Marco can provide something even more beneficial on the offensive end, which is someone who can create shots and add a layer of complexity for opposition on the defensive end.

Instead of relying on one guy to be the primary scorer and create shots for the rest of the team in crunch time, we can mix it up and give Derrick more time playing off the ball. This will keep him fresher at the end of games and reduce the wear and tear throughout the season. It'll also let Derrick develop an underutilized portion of his game and limit the effectiveness of the "Jordan rules" type defenses teams like to use against him in the playoffs.


These were all the things Rip was supposed to bring too. People might not remember it now, having seen his warts, but go back and read the original threads on RIp coming here, all the same claptrap. Now Rip is about to be dumped, after he failed to deliver that, and because we have a similar level player in Marco for much cheaper.
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Post#48 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:16 am by the ultimates

GetBuLLish wrote:Per 36 numbers this year:

A: 14.3 Pts 2.0 Ast 2.6 Reb 1.0 Stl 0.1 Blk 1.4 TO 41.2% FG 41.5% 3pt 87.7% FT 55.1% TS 49.2% eFG

B: 13.1 Pts 2.1 Ast 4.7 Reb 1.3 Stl 0.6 Blk 1.1 TO 42.9% FG 43.3% 3pt 83.9% FT 61.3%TS 59.1% eFG

Somehow, multiple people believe that Player A is "significantly better" and that it's not even a question. Pretty foolish, IMO.

Anyways, I've always thought that Korver was the better player for this team. I'm pretty close to being on the fence now, with a very slight leaning towards Korver still. We'll really find out the answer come playoff time.


Comparing player A and B who is better at creating for themselves, ball handling, starting offense, creating off pick and roll things stats may not show you.
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Post#49 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:18 am by Rerisen

GetBuLLish wrote:Per 36 numbers this year:

A: 14.3 Pts 2.0 Ast 2.6 Reb 1.0 Stl 0.1 Blk 1.4 TO 41.2% FG 41.5% 3pt 87.7% FT 55.1% TS 49.2% eFG

B: 13.1 Pts 2.1 Ast 4.7 Reb 1.3 Stl 0.6 Blk 1.1 TO 42.9% FG 43.3% 3pt 83.9% FT 61.3%TS 59.1% eFG

Somehow, multiple people believe that Player A is "significantly better" and that it's not even a question. Pretty foolish, IMO.

Anyways, I've always thought that Korver was the better player for this team. I'm pretty close to being on the fence now, with a very slight leaning towards Korver still. We'll really find out the answer come playoff time.


Skill set or style preferences over performance and results, only thing it can be.

But skill set and style of play mean nothing if it doesn't pass the reality test on the floor.

The reality tests both at the individual and team level, favor Kyle while he was here.

Again, we haven't seen Marco with Rose yet, so if they have some off the charts chemistry maybe it can be turned on its head. But remember, Bulls had the #5 rated offense last year, even with Rose out a lot. Right now we are 19th. That's steep gap to ask just Derrick Rose coming back to repair.
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Post#50 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:21 am by Rerisen

the ultimates wrote:Comparing player A and B who is better at creating for themselves, ball handling, starting offense, creating off pick and roll things stats may not show you.


What they will show you though, is how many shots the player takes actually go in the basket. More important, how many points they produce on the possessions they use up offensively.

At the lineup level they will show you if that creating for others, setting up offense, etc, is actually leading to better team offense while the player is in.
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Post#51 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:27 am by GetBuLLish

Since everyone is talking about playoffs and how bad Korver was, let's compare playoff averages for the two players. Per 36:

A: 12.1 Pts 0.8 Ast 1.0 Reb 0.0 Blk 0.8 TO 36.5% FG 30.8% 3pt 100% FT 44.8%TS 42.9%eFG

B: 12.3 Pts 2.1 Ast 2.9 Reb 0.5 Blk 1.5 TO 41.2% FG 38.1% 3pt 88.5% FT 54.6%TS 51.4%eFG

Player A is Marco. Of course, he's only had one playoff series (6 games), so it's a small sample size. But people aren't having too much trouble basing decisions on Korver off small sample sizes.
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Post#52 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:29 am by the ultimates

Rerisen wrote:
GetBuLLish wrote:Per 36 numbers this year:

A: 14.3 Pts 2.0 Ast 2.6 Reb 1.0 Stl 0.1 Blk 1.4 TO 41.2% FG 41.5% 3pt 87.7% FT 55.1% TS 49.2% eFG

B: 13.1 Pts 2.1 Ast 4.7 Reb 1.3 Stl 0.6 Blk 1.1 TO 42.9% FG 43.3% 3pt 83.9% FT 61.3%TS 59.1% eFG

Somehow, multiple people believe that Player A is "significantly better" and that it's not even a question. Pretty foolish, IMO.

Anyways, I've always thought that Korver was the better player for this team. I'm pretty close to being on the fence now, with a very slight leaning towards Korver still. We'll really find out the answer come playoff time.


Skill set or style preferences over performance and results, only thing it can be.

But skill set and style of play mean nothing if it doesn't pass the reality test on the floor.

The reality tests both at the individual and team level, favor Kyle while he was here.

Again, we haven't seen Marco with Rose yet, so if they have some off the charts chemistry maybe it can be turned on its head. But remember, Bulls had the #5 rated offense last year, even with Rose out a lot. Right now we are 19th. That's steep gap to ask just Derrick Rose coming back to repair.


Ok then so Marco has to play well in just one playoff series to equal Korver right? You also had better offensive production from Watson and Taj didn't struggle for the first two months of the season and Derrick even banged up still played in more than half of last seasons games.
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Post#53 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:31 am by Rerisen

GetBuLLish wrote:Since everyone is talking about playoffs and how bad Korver was, let's compare playoff averages for the two players. Per 36:

A: 12.1 Pts 0.8 Ast 1.0 Reb 0.0 Blk 0.8 TO 36.5% FG 30.8% 3pt 100% FT 44.8%TS 42.9%eFG

B: 12.3 Pts 2.1 Ast 2.9 Reb 0.5 Blk 1.5 TO 41.2% FG 38.1% 3pt 88.5% FT 54.6%TS 51.4%eFG

Player A is Marco. Of course, he's only had one playoff series (6 games), so it's a small sample size. But people aren't having too much trouble basing decisions on Korver off small sample sizes.


Not uncommon to see role players numbers take hits in the playoffs. Heck even all players. You do generally play the better defenses, and as well as more intense effort and play all around.

But Kyle's playoff efficiency is better than Marco's regular season career marks, let alone playoffs. So yeah, some strange assumptions being made about this.
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Post#54 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:35 am by the ultimates

GetBuLLish wrote:Since everyone is talking about playoffs and how bad Korver was, let's compare playoff averages for the two players. Per 36:

A: 12.1 Pts 0.8 Ast 1.0 Reb 0.0 Blk 0.8 TO 36.5% FG 30.8% 3pt 100% FT 44.8%TS 42.9%eFG

B: 12.3 Pts 2.1 Ast 2.9 Reb 0.5 Blk 1.5 TO 41.2% FG 38.1% 3pt 88.5% FT 54.6%TS 51.4%eFG

Player A is Marco. Of course, he's only had one playoff series (6 games), so it's a small sample size. But people aren't having too much trouble basing decisions on Korver off small sample sizes.


How big should the sample size as a Bull be then? I'm looking at his numbers and play for the last twenty playoff games. I think a fair assessment can be made from that.
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Post#55 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:39 am by Rerisen

the ultimates wrote:You also had better offensive production from Watson and Taj didn't struggle for the first two months of the season and Derrick even banged up still played in more than half of last seasons games.


If you want to compare at the team level like that, Nate is better than Lucas, and if Marco is better than Korver, and Butler about as good as Brewer, we should we better than last year in the same game span without Rose right? Noah is eating up 65-70% of Asik's lost minutes and is better than him. But we haven't been. That leaves just Watson and Hinrich, are we to blame Hinrich for the difference? Not like CJ had a great season last year at all, only slightly more productive than Kirk was.
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Post#56 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:40 am by Kirk Boozer

DuckIII wrote:This hasn't been worth discussing in over a month. Belli is significantly better. The real issue is getting Rip off the floor.


I agree with this 100%.

I can't believe anyone can still think that Korver is better than Marco. Yes, Korver has a higher TS% and eFG%, but that's easy when all you do is shoot wide-open 3's.

Right now for the Hawks, he's taking 8.1 shots per game, and 6.1 of them are 3's.

He doesn't bring anything else to the table, which is why he only takes 8 shots in 29 minutes.

Korver is supposed to help an offense because the defense can't leave him open behind the arc- I hope they leave Marco open behind the arc, he hits 3's at a 2% lower rate than Korver. Even at Korver's current 6 attempts per game from behind the arc, that means that every 16 1/2 games, he'll hit two more three's than Marco.

Marco's ball-handling, defense, and ability to get to the rim more than makes up for the 2% less that he makes from behind the arc.
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Post#57 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:42 am by musiqsoulchild

Rerisen wrote:
the ultimates wrote:You also had better offensive production from Watson and Taj didn't struggle for the first two months of the season and Derrick even banged up still played in more than half of last seasons games.


If you want to compare at the team level like that, Nate is better than Lucas, and if Marco is better than Korver, and Butler about as good as Brewer, we should we better than last year in the same game span without Rose right? Noah is eating up 65-70% of Asik's lost minutes and is better than him. But we haven't been. That leaves just Watson and Hinrich, are we to blame Hinrich for the difference? Not like CJ had a great season last year at all, only slightly more productive than Kirk was.


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Post#58 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:45 am by Rerisen

musiqsoulchild wrote:
Rerisen wrote:
the ultimates wrote:You also had better offensive production from Watson and Taj didn't struggle for the first two months of the season and Derrick even banged up still played in more than half of last seasons games.


If you want to compare at the team level like that, Nate is better than Lucas, and if Marco is better than Korver, and Butler about as good as Brewer, we should we better than last year in the same game span without Rose right? Noah is eating up 65-70% of Asik's lost minutes and is better than him. But we haven't been. That leaves just Watson and Hinrich, are we to blame Hinrich for the difference? Not like CJ had a great season last year at all, only slightly more productive than Kirk was.


Kirk is to blame.


:lol:

Partly for sure. But I'm not sure entirely. I did champion keeping CJ over bringing Kirk here, but not because CJ was great last year, but because I thought he played injured, in tough lineup situations, and would be better this year. Cheaper too.

But just looking at last year, CJ wasn't that much better than Kirk has been. So I'm not sure that can be the whole reason.

CJ: 13.3 PER, .491 TS%, 14.7 pts, 6.2 Ast
Kirk: 10.5 PER, .470 TS%, 8.9 pts, 7.2 Ast
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Post#59 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:46 am by GetBuLLish

Rerisen wrote:Skill set or style preferences over performance and results, only thing it can be.


Yea, seems like it.

the ultimates wrote:How big should the sample size as a Bull be then? I'm looking at his numbers and play for the last twenty playoff games. I think a fair assessment can be made from that.


I'm just saying that people are basing their decisions of a small sample size. That's fine, but then apply the same standard to Marco.
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Post#60 Re: Bellinelli v Korver Redux
Wed Jan 9, 2013 12:47 am by the ultimates

Rerisen wrote:
the ultimates wrote:You also had better offensive production from Watson and Taj didn't struggle for the first two months of the season and Derrick even banged up still played in more than half of last seasons games.


If you want to compare at the team level like that, Nate is better than Lucas, and if Marco is better than Korver, and Butler about as good as Brewer, we should we better than last year in the same game span without Rose right? Noah is eating up 65-70% of Asik's lost minutes and is better than him. But we haven't been. That leaves just Watson and Hinrich, are we to blame Hinrich for the difference? Not like CJ had a great season last year at all, only slightly more productive than Kirk was.



But they weren't without Rose who still played in over half the games last regular season. C.J was better than Kirk who is a known slow starter shooting wise. Taj last season was not awful the first two months.
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