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Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition

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Re: RE: Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#921 » by Payt10 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:45 pm

kyrv wrote:
Payt10 wrote:
DASMACKDOWN wrote:I guess we can prepare for the league to make big changes in the offseason about 'sitting' players..

I don't know if it can be negotiated in the CBA, but the league is obviously getting a trashing by their sponsors. I totally understand and agree. TNT, ESPN/ABC paid a premium on primetime matchups to put on display and what maybe 1 or 2 have even had all their guys play? The other games were big time blow outs...(one thanks to Bulls)

I honestly don't know how the league can force a teams hand.

You cant say, so and so player MUST play in the game. You also cannot force how many minutes that player plays either. Knowing Popp he would have all his 'resting' guys do the tip off, foul immediately then sub them all out. He is the one guy will the balls to stuff it to the league.

I don't even think stretching out games for less back to backs helps either. I think the more freedom you give the teams, the more freedom they will take. Remember in the lockout year....teams were still "resting players" and we had 50 total regular season games.

Its going to be tough, but the sponsors are going to rip the league a new one if nothing is done about it.

There is nothing they can do. Coaches are trying to do what's in the best interest of their team to try and win a championship. They couldn't care less about what kind of ratings they get on TV, or what the fans paid to come see their favorite players. And they shouldn't care. They don't owe it to anybody to play guys for the sake of entertainment. So, the league should really give up the fight, because it's a battle they will never win.


Yes there is. Of course there is something they can do. Come on man.

Didn't Phil get fined for resting players in a meaningless regular season finale?

This is the integrity of the game.

And yes they do owe it to try and win games.

League will in fact win the battle if they so choose.

The best thing imo is to work together and find a solution. But absolutely the league can stop it. They aren't some helpless bystanders.

Coaches owe nothing to the fans. Their job is to win championships, not meaningless regular season games. If a coach wants to get his players some rest before the post-season, because he thinks it will help in the long run, then that is their prerogative.

I think if the league intervenes too much, to the point where they are beginning to micromanage and undermine a coaches power to run his team the way he wants, it's going to create massive chaos—possibly leading to a strike of some kind—depending on how much power is taken away from them.

I'm struggling even coming up with a rule the league could implement that would keep this from happening. So they force player x to play.. What's stopping a coach from fouling immediately at the start of the game to send the player back to the bench the rest of the game? Then you'll be asking, "Okay, so now how many minutes does player x have to play for the rules to take effect?" Also, "Is it never okay for a player to rest without an injury?" "What's stopping teams from 'faking' an injury or sickness?" These are all pertinent questions.

It's a lot more of a tricky situation than one might think. I don't think it's as easy as just saying "You have to play this guy or we'll fine you" without some serious backlash from players and coaches. Maybe there is some middle ground here that I'm not seeing.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#922 » by bulliedog8 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:01 pm

Predicted 35 wins for bulls. Became a hater because the offseason moves. Will see if I am wrong on the bulls..........Hope they prove me wrong.

Rockets over Warriors in 7 in WCFs bandwagon
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#923 » by Mark K » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:12 pm

RakimAbdulJabar wrote:Teams like the Suns should be fined for this blatant tanking, it's now affecting the Bulls chances too as they're just giving the Pistons this win by sitting all their best players. In fact they should have a % of their lottery balls removed for each game they tank


They should be fined by the league for using the rules set by the league to their advantage?

Nah.

Bunch of old men yelling at clouds in this thread.

If you want to know why NBA tank and why colleges teams play hard and try to win every game, look at the system that these teams operate in and how they're incentivised and take your umbrage up with league office for rewarding the worst teams.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#924 » by the ultimates » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:23 am

Ending tanking is simple. Every team missing the playoffs gets one ping pong ball in the lottery. It then makes little sense to tank because everyone has the same odds. Going to the weighted lottery after the magic got back to back top picks is what has eventually led to this mess.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#925 » by RakimAbdulJabar » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:25 am

Mark K wrote:
RakimAbdulJabar wrote:Teams like the Suns should be fined for this blatant tanking, it's now affecting the Bulls chances too as they're just giving the Pistons this win by sitting all their best players. In fact they should have a % of their lottery balls removed for each game they tank


They should be fined by the league for using the rules set by the league to their advantage?

Nah.

Bunch of old men yelling at clouds in this thread.

If you want to know why NBA tank and why colleges teams play hard and try to win every game, look at the system that these teams operate in and how they're incentivised and take your umbrage up with league office for rewarding the worst teams.


Yeah OK you completely missed the point :roll: but I'd rather not converse with you anyway so if you could kindly not quote me, thanks
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#926 » by BoozerRoNo » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:33 am

RakimAbdulJabar wrote:
Mark K wrote:
RakimAbdulJabar wrote:Teams like the Suns should be fined for this blatant tanking, it's now affecting the Bulls chances too as they're just giving the Pistons this win by sitting all their best players. In fact they should have a % of their lottery balls removed for each game they tank


They should be fined by the league for using the rules set by the league to their advantage?

Nah.

Bunch of old men yelling at clouds in this thread.

If you want to know why NBA tank and why colleges teams play hard and try to win every game, look at the system that these teams operate in and how they're incentivised and take your umbrage up with league office for rewarding the worst teams.


Yeah OK you completely missed the point :roll: but I'd rather not converse with you anyway so if you could kindly not quote me, thanks


I agree teams should be punished for purposely tanking.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#927 » by Mark K » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:31 am

RakimAbdulJabar wrote:Yeah OK you completely missed the point :roll: but I'd rather not converse with you anyway so if you could kindly not quote me, thanks


:lol:
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#928 » by GimmeDat » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:32 am

How do you stop teams from tanking though? They'll just claim a guy is hurt.

It's the way the league works, and as a Bulls fan, I'd like us to play the situation the same way. Bulls are playing for nothing right now and I'm indifferent to wins and losses.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#929 » by Mark K » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:52 am

GimmeDat wrote:How do you stop teams from tanking though? They'll just claim a guy is hurt.

It's the way the league works, and as a Bulls fan, I'd like us to play the situation the same way. Bulls are playing for nothing right now and I'm indifferent to wins and losses.


Pretty much. There’s no way to completely eradicate tanking. There’s also no way that owners would agree to every team outside of the playoffs having an equal chance at landing the top pick. You won’t get that over the line in a CBA.

The Suns are holding Bledsoe out for their remaining games to tank as much as they can. That’s wise. It improves their draft pick and also reduces the risk of Bledsoe getting hurt and not being able to deal him during the offseason.

It makes too much sense for teams not to tank.

Teams don’t own general fans ****. They also don’t owe their actual fans anything in the short-term when the long-term is far more important, in comparison.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#930 » by R3AL1TY » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:58 am

It looks like the major TV Networks and Adam Silver are really upset at the top teams resting their players more than the teams that are tanking.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#931 » by KissedByaRose1 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:00 am

Mark K wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:How do you stop teams from tanking though? They'll just claim a guy is hurt.

It's the way the league works, and as a Bulls fan, I'd like us to play the situation the same way. Bulls are playing for nothing right now and I'm indifferent to wins and losses.


Pretty much. There’s no way to completely eradicate tanking. There’s also no way that owners would agree to every team outside of the playoffs having an equal chance at landing the top pick. You won’t get that over the line in a CBA.

The Suns are holding Bledsoe out for their remaining games to tank as much as they can. That’s wise. It improves their draft pick and also reduces the risk of Bledsoe getting hurt and not being able to deal him during the offseason.

It makes too much sense for teams not to tank.

Teams don’t own general fans ****. They also don’t owe their actual fans anything in the short-term when the long-term is far more important, in comparison.


Eh, I agree with 90% of this. Teams do owe fans something because on some level fans really do make all these people millionaires/billionaires. If you disrespect your fan base to a certain extent eventually people will stop pumping money into your league.

We're very far away from any large group of people seriously considering this. But at the end of the day the NBA got this big because of people like you and me.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#932 » by DASMACKDOWN » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:03 am

Adam Silver Warns Teams Of Resting Players

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/245360/Adam-Silver-Warns-Teams-Of-Resting-Players

I just knew the commish would step in regarding healthy scratches of star players during premium games. If the teams and coaches have to give significant notice for a player getting rest, that's one way to change the practice.

Honestly I think even from the Silvers point of view, we don't care if you rest against the Nets. But if your next game is televised against the Warriors, you better be playing in that game.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#933 » by the ultimates » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:34 am

GimmeDat wrote:How do you stop teams from tanking though? They'll just claim a guy is hurt.

It's the way the league works, and as a Bulls fan, I'd like us to play the situation the same way. Bulls are playing for nothing right now and I'm indifferent to wins and losses.


You might not stop it but you can hinder it greatly. The biggest reason for tanking is to increase your draft odds. If every non playoff team had the same lottery odds you take away a large incentive.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#934 » by Mark K » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:36 am

KissedByaRose1 wrote:Eh, I agree with 90% of this. Teams do owe fans something because on some level fans really do make all these people millionaires/billionaires. If you disrespect your fan base to a certain extent eventually people will stop pumping money into your league.

We're very far away from any large group of people seriously considering this. But at the end of the day the NBA got this big because of people like you and me.


I don't buy this at all. People aren't going to stop watching the NBA if a team starts tanking the last 12 games in. This sort of rhetoric was said when the Sixers were tanking. Everyone painted Hinkie as this demonic thing costing the Sixers and the leagues fans all over, but that wasn't the case.

If a team like the Suns take out Bledsoe for their last 12 games, sure, it sucks for a brief period. But the potential return is far greater than playing him those final few games.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#935 » by KissedByaRose1 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:42 am

Mark K wrote:
KissedByaRose1 wrote:Eh, I agree with 90% of this. Teams do owe fans something because on some level fans really do make all these people millionaires/billionaires. If you disrespect your fan base to a certain extent eventually people will stop pumping money into your league.

We're very far away from any large group of people seriously considering this. But at the end of the day the NBA got this big because of people like you and me.


I don't buy this at all. People aren't going to stop watching the NBA if a team starts tanking the last 12 games in. This sort of rhetoric was said when the Sixers were tanking. Everyone painted Hinkie as this demonic thing costing the Sixers and the leagues fans all over, but that wasn't the case.

If a team like the Suns take out Bledsoe for their last 12 games, sure, it sucks for a brief period. But the potential return is far greater than playing him those final few games.


Read the second part of my post. To suggest franchises owe the fans "nothing at all" is silly.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#936 » by andrewww » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:58 am

The only way to discourage tanking is to put more value in RS games. But the only practical way to do this is either lessen the number of playoff spots and/or regular season games. That's why you see almost no such tanking in the NFL because every game is meaningful by in large, up until week 17.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#937 » by Mark K » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:29 am

KissedByaRose1 wrote:Read the second part of my post. To suggest franchises owe the fans "nothing at all" is silly.


I didn't see they didn't owe fans anything. I said they owe fans more in the long-term and ensuring the franchise is healthy looking forward more so than instant gratification of a meaningless win at the end of the season.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#938 » by stilldropin20 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:15 am

stopping tanking is easy.

1. get rid of the lottery and give the #1 pick to the best team to not make the playoffs. so the best 9th seed. this will give you more parity too as these #9 seeds are ready to win now and a good rookie could easily make them a top 3 contender the immediate year following. as opposed to prized rookie going to losing organizations.

2. give significantly more money to the teams (and players) that make the playoffs. like 20% raises to the players if their team makes the playoffs. and base this raise on minutes played. so the team's total salary goes up 20% but each chunck of that 20% is based on the minutes played during the season. additional 20% kicker of total league revenue to the playoff teams taken from the teams that dont make the playoffs.

Take this 20% from the losing teams and the players salaries that did not make the playoffs. this will make players hate each other again and create rivalries.

this gives more power to the coaches as well. also same for coaches and front offices. 20% raises for FO and coaches that make playoffs taken from the teams that do not make the playoffs.

this way the 17-30 seeds would draft 1-14 and in that order.

What this would fix:

1. more teams and players would fight (their butts off) for the playoffs.
2. FO's would sign more vets and less young kids learning the game. (which give you a better overall product)
3. there is essentially no reason to tank at all at any level. too much money to lose
4. bad teams and organizations are not rewarded in any way shape or form with picks or money.
5. more competition at the top. (imagine if this years bulls get the #1 pick) we could turn things around quickly and compete sooner.
6. giving teams like the 76ers of the past couple year these really high draft picks has done nothing for them. by the time they are any good. if ever, embied will bolt.

It will be hard to get out of the basement. too effin bad. Bad teams and FO's office would be fired (or perhaps sold) quickly.
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#939 » by GimmeDat » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:54 am

the ultimates wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:How do you stop teams from tanking though? They'll just claim a guy is hurt.

It's the way the league works, and as a Bulls fan, I'd like us to play the situation the same way. Bulls are playing for nothing right now and I'm indifferent to wins and losses.


You might not stop it but you can hinder it greatly. The biggest reason for tanking is to increase your draft odds. If every non playoff team had the same lottery odds you take away a large incentive.


I think that's a really flawed plan though. What if the worst teams struggle to get top picks and suck forever? Will it encourage borderline playoff teams to miss the playoffs instead of getting wiped out by a top seed because they have a legit chance at a top pick?

There's no simply answer to eradicating tanking, imo.

stilldropin20 wrote:stopping tanking is easy.

1. get rid of the lottery and give the #1 pick to the best team to not make the playoffs. so the best 9th seed. this will give you more parity too as these #9 seeds are ready to win now and a good rookie could easily make them a top 3 contender the immediate year following. as opposed to prized rookie going to losing organizations.


Say I was an 8th seeding nearing the end of the season in this scenario - would I rather get wiped out by the Cavs in a sweep, or tank for a shot at that 'last lottery spot' and a star talent?
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Re: Around the NBA: 2016-17 Stretch Run Edition 

Post#940 » by stilldropin20 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:07 am

GimmeDat wrote:
the ultimates wrote:
GimmeDat wrote:How do you stop teams from tanking though? They'll just claim a guy is hurt.

It's the way the league works, and as a Bulls fan, I'd like us to play the situation the same way. Bulls are playing for nothing right now and I'm indifferent to wins and losses.


You might not stop it but you can hinder it greatly. The biggest reason for tanking is to increase your draft odds. If every non playoff team had the same lottery odds you take away a large incentive.


I think that's a really flawed plan though. What if the worst teams struggle to get top picks and suck forever? Will it encourage borderline playoff teams to miss the playoffs instead of getting wiped out by a top seed because they have a legit chance at a top pick?

There's no simply answer to eradicating tanking, imo.

stilldropin20 wrote:stopping tanking is easy.

1. get rid of the lottery and give the #1 pick to the best team to not make the playoffs. so the best 9th seed. this will give you more parity too as these #9 seeds are ready to win now and a good rookie could easily make them a top 3 contender the immediate year following. as opposed to prized rookie going to losing organizations.


Say I was an 8th seeding nearing the end of the season in this scenario - would I rather get wiped out by the Cavs in a sweep, or tank for a shot at that 'last lottery spot' and a star talent?


your entire team woul dtake a 20% loss for tanking. a player making 20 million would be giving away 4 million and only make 16 million.

i'll go out on a limb and say no player in the league would do that.

your owner who might make 50M would now only make 40M since he's a billionaire, maybe he's ok with it? the fans of his team? since no player would be in on it. no coach would either. no coach could ever recover from that and still have the locker room.

so your front office would have to fire its coach and hire a temp coach(and pay the old coach for whatever years he has left...lets call it 10M). that temp coach would have to bench its best players to ensure losses. the FO would then have to deal with its stars losing 4-6M on average. No FO could survive that.

the lost good will alone would crush a fanbase.

the stars would def "speak out."

the coach would speak out on behalf of his players.

this would be a night mare for future free agents. they would never go to a team that tanked like that.

in addition to all that the FO would also take a 1M loss on average out of their salaries.

In short, no effing way would any team under any circumstances tank from a 7 or 8 seed to a 9 seed given the financial damages my 'system" would impose.

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