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MrSparkle wrote:The thing about Pat, is he played about 12 good (if we want to call them that.. more like “OK”) games out of 43. I’d consider atleast 10 of those to be deplorable (sub-Snell… better off if he didn’t even shoot the ball). 1-4 record in his 5 “best” games.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willipa01/gamelog/2024

Coupled with missing half the season for the 2nd time in his short career… he failed to achieve many milestones for a RFA.

Saddiq Bey is probably a dead-on comparison (if not clearly better, so far). We’ll see what either guy makes, having some promise, but also many ups and downs, and season ending injuries.

I’ll be kind of livid if Bulls resign him to $15m or more salary. This should be a Coby deal part 2. $33/3 with no player option… but loaded with lofty incentives (all-star, mip, all-defensive, etc.).

I like Sadiq Bey as a DDR replacement.

drosestruts wrote:It would be great to get Patrick Williams to re-sign on a value deal.

The way I see it - Lauri broke out in year 6. Coby's having a breakout in year 5. It takes time these days?

From the 2020 NBA Draft - who's even broken out? Anthony Edwards for sure. Tyrese Haliburton for sure. Tyrese Maxey for sure. Desmond Bane.

Haliburton and Bane especially were both older players.

Some will say LaMelo but, does he even play basketball? Poor Ball brothers, they're so good and so much fun to watch.

It's not that I think everyone else is a bust, I think it just takes time these days. Williams was also the youngest player in his draft class. He was always a project to an extent.

I don't see a Coby/Lauri situation. Coby & Lauri showed the talent they had in year 1 & 2. The reason their total #s didn't progress is because in the AK regime opportunities for young talent was de-prioritized over playing vets like Thad Young & Vucevic & Satoransky.

Per 36 minutes
Coby rookie: 18.5 ppg 35% 3P 4 apg
Coby now: 18.9 ppg 37% 3P 5 apg

Lauri year2: 21 ppg 36% 3P 10 rpg
Lauri now: 25 ppg 40% 3P 9 rpg

Patrick has been 12-13 points per 36 for 4 years now, been given every opportunity and start, wasn't buried on the bench by vet PFs (we don't even roster anyone who could possibly compete with him).

Pat's maximized just being a guy standing in the corner and hitting spoon fed shots at excellent efficiency. To break into 22+ ppg he has to do things off the dribble or be constantly moving off-ball like Klay or Herro. He's never shown the DNA of being talented at either.

kodo wrote:

drosestruts wrote:It would be great to get Patrick Williams to re-sign on a value deal.

The way I see it - Lauri broke out in year 6. Coby's having a breakout in year 5. It takes time these days?

From the 2020 NBA Draft - who's even broken out? Anthony Edwards for sure. Tyrese Haliburton for sure. Tyrese Maxey for sure. Desmond Bane.

Haliburton and Bane especially were both older players.

Some will say LaMelo but, does he even play basketball? Poor Ball brothers, they're so good and so much fun to watch.

It's not that I think everyone else is a bust, I think it just takes time these days. Williams was also the youngest player in his draft class. He was always a project to an extent.

I don't see a Coby/Lauri situation. Coby & Lauri showed the talent they had in year 1 & 2. The reason their total #s didn't progress is because in the AK regime opportunities for young talent was de-prioritized over playing vets like Thad Young & Vucevic & Satoransky.

Per 36 minutes
Coby rookie: 18.5 ppg 35% 3P 4 apg
Coby now: 18.9 ppg 37% 3P 5 apg

Lauri year2: 21 ppg 36% 3P 10 rpg
Lauri now: 25 ppg 40% 3P 9 rpg

Patrick has been 12-13 points per 36 for 4 years now, been given every opportunity and start, wasn't buried on the bench by vet PFs (we don't even roster anyone who could possibly compete with him).

Pat's maximized just being a guy standing in the corner and hitting spoon fed shots at excellent efficiency. To break into 22+ ppg he has to do things off the dribble or be constantly moving off-ball like Klay or Herro. He's never shown the DNA of being talented at either.

Yeah good points. He just isn't that sort of guy and he doesn't have the handles or post moves to be guy who creates off the dribble.

Chi town wrote:Don’t forget!

https://youtu.be/PUOGCDFA_6g?si=J0klOFyaWb_AXJ1H

I think he resigns a Coby type deal. 3/45.

Man it's frustrating watching a video like that and comparing it to how Pat plays 80% of his games like he's allergic to the basketball.

I'd be fine if they moved on from Pat. His presence doesn't have a material impact on the outcome of most games he plays in. He's the archetypal "just a guy".

greenl wrote:I'd be fine if they moved on from Pat. His presence doesn't have a material impact on the outcome of most games he plays in. He's the archetypal "just a guy".

On one hand, he had a few nice games this year and showed flashes of having more skills than he has shown. OTOH, he has been injured a lot and disappears frequently. He might be a classic case of "fool's gold".

IMO, the Bulls really don't want to give him a contract that isn't movable. I think he is worth a flyer at slightly more than the MLE but no way would I tie up 4/100 with him. If he walks, he walks. The Bulls have a hard cap at the LT barrier. They can't use up significant portions on that for players who aren't contributing if they want to win.

I my eyes, evaluating Patrick comes down to, what could he do if Lavine and DeRozan weren't there dominating the ball? To me the defense that Williams brings is very strong, if you want to look he's ahead or Lavine, DeRozan, Coby and Vucevic, he''s guarding 1-4 and covering up for the short comings of the other 4 most of the time. He's got a bit of size on Caruso and strength even if he's playing the 4.

I think he's best suited for the SF, but that said when he's played and started at the 4, it's still been there with DeRozan making his move to get to his spot for the mid range shot. This means he has to wait in the corner spreading the floor so he doesn't cut to the basket and draw his man closer to the dribbling Demar. The same applies to Lavine, PWill has to stay in the corner to again spread the floor in the event Zach decides to drive to the rim. Those two guys playing the ios game leaves Williams with no choice but to wait and watch. THEN once the shot goes up, who is there to get back on defense? You watch the games how often do you see DeRozan or Lavine , even Vucevic when he's beyond the arc, as the first one back to stop the break? Almost never, that was PWill and now Ayo.

In those rare stretches and games when Williams has been free to play, he's shown what he's capable of doing. It's up to the Bulls if they want to give him the time and room to do it next to Coby and Ayo who have shown what they can do.

We'll debate this until the Bulls stat making moves and maybe after if Patrick is in a different uniform.

The Bulls need something extremely team friendly or for him to sign the QO. He hasn’t earned anything above that.

HomoSapien wrote:The Bulls need something extremely team friendly or for him to sign the QO. He hasn’t earned anything above that.

Are there any teams with cap space who might be interested in signing him? I don't think he's shown enough for a team to bid high on him.

Maybe the Spurs, Pistons or Hornets? I imagine that the Bulls would match any offers, but hopefully they sign him to a good deal.

HomoSapien wrote:The Bulls need something extremely team friendly or for him to sign the QO. He hasn’t earned anything above that.

Are there any teams with cap space who might be interested in signing PW? I don't think he's shown enough for a team to bid high on him.

Maybe the Spurs, Pistons or Hornets? I imagine that the Bulls would match any offers, but hopefully they sign him to a good deal.

Dan Z wrote:

HomoSapien wrote:The Bulls need something extremely team friendly or for him to sign the QO. He hasn’t earned anything above that.

Are there any teams with cap space who might be interested in signing PW? I don't think he's shown enough for a team to bid high on him.

Maybe the Spurs, Pistons or Hornets? I imagine that the Bulls would match any offers, but hopefully they sign him to a good deal.

Pretty sure the Raptors have capspace and they're rebuilding, plus the Pistons have shown interest in the past.

There are plenty of teams with space that are rebuilding that could take a chance on Pat.

But would the Bulls match?

Muzbar wrote:

Dan Z wrote:

HomoSapien wrote:The Bulls need something extremely team friendly or for him to sign the QO. He hasn’t earned anything above that.

Are there any teams with cap space who might be interested in signing PW? I don't think he's shown enough for a team to bid high on him.

Maybe the Spurs, Pistons or Hornets? I imagine that the Bulls would match any offers, but hopefully they sign him to a good deal.

Pretty sure the Raptors have capspace and they're rebuilding, plus the Pistons have shown interest in the past.

There are plenty of teams with space that are rebuilding that could take a chance on Pat.

But would the Bulls match?

I bet they would match, but a better question is...should they? I mean if the price is too high.

Dan Z wrote:

Muzbar wrote:

Dan Z wrote:
Are there any teams with cap space who might be interested in signing PW? I don't think he's shown enough for a team to bid high on him.

Maybe the Spurs, Pistons or Hornets? I imagine that the Bulls would match any offers, but hopefully they sign him to a good deal.

Pretty sure the Raptors have capspace and they're rebuilding, plus the Pistons have shown interest in the past.

There are plenty of teams with space that are rebuilding that could take a chance on Pat.

But would the Bulls match?

I bet they would match, but a better question is...should they? I mean if the price is too high.

If it exceeds 20m I don't think they should. Pat doesn't deserve more than what Coby got but I'm not sure if there's like a minimum limit he can be offered being he was a no. 4 pick.

Personally I wouldn't go anymore than 15m and a three year deal.

No motor. No QO. Outplayed by Javonte green. Bye bye.

Another AKME mistake. Move on. Maybe he will realize his potential elsewhere, but here he has been an injury prone sleepwalker. He's no better than he was as a rookie. I don't know if I'd want to keep him at any price. He's put up less than 10 "wow" games in 4 years. For a #4 pick. AKME....just tank already. Then resign. Let's try a different front office.

Almost Retired wrote:Another AKME mistake. Move on. Maybe he will realize his potential elsewhere, but here he has been an injury prone sleepwalker. He's no better than he was as a rookie. I don't know if I'd want to keep him at any price. He's put up less than 10 "wow" games in 4 years. For a #4 pick. AKME....just tank already. Then resign. Let's try a different front office.

I go back and forth on him. I think his performance warrants MLE money, which to me is tied to marginal starting talent-level players. The most any team with an MLE slot can offer is a 4/$55 this season. That sort of deal wouldn't bother me. My premise is that this team, as constructed has basically no assets to build with. I think that contract will keep it's positive trade value. I think next season will be a transition to our "rebuild squad", which, right now consists of Coby, Ayo and Pat.

Risk Addict wrote:No motor. No QO. Outplayed by Javonte green. Bye bye.

Amen

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coldfish wrote:

greenl wrote:I'd be fine if they moved on from Pat. His presence doesn't have a material impact on the outcome of most games he plays in. He's the archetypal "just a guy".

On one hand, he had a few nice games this year and showed flashes of having more skills than he has shown. OTOH, he has been injured a lot and disappears frequently. He might be a classic case of "fool's gold".

IMO, the Bulls really don't want to give him a contract that isn't movable. I think he is worth a flyer at slightly more than the MLE but no way would I tie up 4/100 with him. If he walks, he walks. The Bulls have a hard cap at the LT barrier. They can't use up significant portions on that for players who aren't contributing if they want to win.

Pretty much every player has a few games like that per season and it usually doesn't mean future sustainable play at that level, it's usually just a flash in the pan. 80%+ of Pat's career to this point has been quiet and generally unimpactful.

If it's me I move on, preferably in the form of a trade.

GoBlue72391 wrote:

coldfish wrote:

greenl wrote:I'd be fine if they moved on from Pat. His presence doesn't have a material impact on the outcome of most games he plays in. He's the archetypal "just a guy".

On one hand, he had a few nice games this year and showed flashes of having more skills than he has shown. OTOH, he has been injured a lot and disappears frequently. He might be a classic case of "fool's gold".

IMO, the Bulls really don't want to give him a contract that isn't movable. I think he is worth a flyer at slightly more than the MLE but no way would I tie up 4/100 with him. If he walks, he walks. The Bulls have a hard cap at the LT barrier. They can't use up significant portions on that for players who aren't contributing if they want to win.

Pretty much every player has a few games like that per season and it usually doesn't mean future sustainable play at that level, it's usually just a flash in the pan. 80%+ of Pat's career to this point has been quiet and generally unimpactful.

If it's me I move on, preferably in the form of a trade.

I've been hoping to see more out of Pat for a while but the truth is that he is an above average defender (not elite) and an above average 3pt shooter (on middling volume of open shots). As many have said, he is the sort of guy content to score 10-14ppg and will only take 20 shots a game when forced (and then usually with a lot of TO's mixed in because he is a below-average ball handler). What's that guy worth? Smells to me like MLE type money. I'm happy to keep him slightly above that level to pay for upside that really hasn't shown itself with any consistency (in contrast of other young guys we've had over the years who did go on to become very good).

Final and only offer from the Bulls should be $15M for 3 years (Team option on the last year).