Discussing how guards are used in Thibs' defense

[jumpmanjay]

Sorry, but but reading through this thread, I feel the need to throw up a "straw man."

What is expected defensively from Thibs' guards on defense is not much different from most NBA teams since most NBA teams expect their guards to funnel either toward the middle (Utah model) or the baseline (Thibs model), that is, most NBA defenses want their defenders to "funnel" their on-ball opponent. All NBA defenses expect their guards to challenge outside shots.

Right, wrong or more complicated than I'm making it?

right. todays rules, its pretty much impossible for someone to guard an explosive player straight up. they can get a first step on you much faster than you can react and guard going backwards. since you cannot hand check, youre left at the mercy of your own reaction and explosion...therefore, you need help defense at all times, pretty much...and funneling your man into someone else, setting up a trap constantly, helps prevent penetration into the paint. fast accurate rotations really help, since if you can get there before the man being funneled into your direction does, you can take the charge.

[coldfish]

Re: the Utah defense, I remember reading recently that most defenses now do channel guys to the baseline, and that Sloan's system (channelling to the middle) was only being used by one or two teams last year. Utah's switching it up this year, but it helps explain why some of the Utah guys (esp. Booz and Korver) had some trouble with the rotations to start the year.

Utah is switching now, to a system more like ours.

What makes Thib's defense special, more than anything else, is Thibs. The scheme isn't that much different than what most of the league wants to run, he just runs it with an attention to detail that is beyond what other coaches achieve. It's like Battier in the coaching booth: he studies scorers really hard, and then implements wrinkles in his base D to take specific things away.

I agree and disagree. Thibs' defense is basically the baseline funnel on steroids. Help comes as soon as an offensive player makes a move, as opposed to a few steps later when the guy is fully committed. The upside is that help gets to the man before he gets close to the rim making it really hard to draw a foul or get a good shot off. The downside is that the help defense has to be much, much sharper as the likelihood of a pass is greater. If the Bulls helped early and then didn't rotate ultra quick, you would have a ton of wide open shots.

[coldfish]

Sorry, but but reading through this thread, I feel the need to throw up a "straw man."

What is expected defensively from Thibs' guards on defense is not much different from most NBA teams since most NBA teams expect their guards to funnel either toward the middle (Utah model) or the baseline (Thibs model), that is, most NBA defenses want their defenders to "funnel" their on-ball opponent. All NBA defenses expect their guards to challenge outside shots.

Right, wrong or more complicated than I'm making it?

Right!

You are basically saying something I have said for years. Perimeter defense is overrated. As long as the defender puts out a reasonable amount of effort, the impact of an average defender and a top level perimeter defender is minimal.

Where defense is really made is with the big men.

[suckfish]

Sorry, but but reading through this thread, I feel the need to throw up a "straw man."

What is expected defensively from Thibs' guards on defense is not much different from most NBA teams since most NBA teams expect their guards to funnel either toward the middle (Utah model) or the baseline (Thibs model), that is, most NBA defenses want their defenders to "funnel" their on-ball opponent. All NBA defenses expect their guards to challenge outside shots.

Right, wrong or more complicated than I'm making it?

I agree.

Thibs has a system in place, but it's not like it's a new groundbreaking concept. Thibs just has common methods he believes in and drills everything to extreme detail during lengthy practical and film sessions.

Most coaches force baseline (a few middle), just some emphasize stronger more deliberate funneling/forcing than others. Some want aggressive rotating help defense, others want players to stay home a little longer before committing. Some want aggressive hedging on the pick and roll, some want to just show and recover. Some like to trap and bait offenses into turnovers, some want to stay safe.

He takes basic methods but exaggerates them to the max.

It all depends on coaching philosophies and player personnel (smart/dumb, athletic/not athletic, big/small).

[cot2]

I completely disagree.

Defense starts on the perimeter, and while strong interior defenders can lessen the impact of poor perimeter play, it can never make up for it. Staying in front of the offensive player, and not letting him get where he wants, keeps the need of help defender coming, and opening hole to a player closer to the basket, where scoring is more efficient. It is easier to stay in front of your guy, by backing off some, but it is also important to stay close so that wing player does not have an uncontested shot. The ability to fight through screen, so you are not forced to constantly switch, is also important to minimize the amount of open looks. In addition to the system, you need to have players capable of player their roles. When Hinrich was in the games, he was always up harassing the player, and fighting through every screen. The one disaster year with an early Rose, and Gordon were on the floor together, they played 4’ off their men, and switched on every pick. It was a disaster that cascaded through the rest of the defense.

Even when you have a great system, and great defensive players, you have breakdowns, and you have plans for what you, like funneling players to a particular spot. You also define ways to defend great offensive players that require players to form a double team to help by design, and not just from a breakdown. A coach’s comment to funnel a player to a particular spot does not state that they let the player go, it could be forcing him to a spot where he is less efficient, or looking to double team a dangerous player.

You can build your defense around the players you have, and you can bring in the players you need to make your defense work, except during the off-season, you are doing the former, even though no matter how good of a defensive guru you are, you can only hide so many liabilities. Enough poor defenders on the floor at the same time, the more need for help defenses, and worst case having to play more of a zone defense. Rose’s defense continues to improve, and I expect that he will be at least above average this season, so unless the pair him with another guard who is a defensive liability, they should be able to withstand a player, like Boozer, in the frontcourt.

Having a frontcourt of Howard, and Noah could help make up for the deficiencies of wing players, but having the front court being the most important part of a defense only happens when you have a very weak backcourt to cover up. That is why backcourt players are the most important players to this Thibs Bulls team, and why you can expect to see a good defensive player in the backcourt with Rose most of the time.

[bentheredengthat]

Sorry, but but reading through this thread, I feel the need to throw up a "straw man."

What is expected defensively from Thibs' guards on defense is not much different from most NBA teams since most NBA teams expect their guards to funnel either toward the middle (Utah model) or the baseline (Thibs model), that is, most NBA defenses want their defenders to "funnel" their on-ball opponent. All NBA defenses expect their guards to challenge outside shots.

Right, wrong or more complicated than I'm making it?

right. todays rules, its pretty much impossible for someone to guard an explosive player straight up. they can get a first step on you much faster than you can react and guard going backwards. since you cannot hand check, youre left at the mercy of your own reaction and explosion...therefore, you need help defense at all times, pretty much...and funneling your man into someone else, setting up a trap constantly, helps prevent penetration into the paint. fast accurate rotations really help, since if you can get there before the man being funneled into your direction does, you can take the charge.

Is it just me, or does Thibs not really concerned with the defense taking a charge. We play defense so intensely that I think if Thibs wanted people to draw charges, we'd being seeing more of it.

[transplant]

Sorry, but but reading through this thread, I feel the need to throw up a "straw man."

What is expected defensively from Thibs' guards on defense is not much different from most NBA teams since most NBA teams expect their guards to funnel either toward the middle (Utah model) or the baseline (Thibs model), that is, most NBA defenses want their defenders to "funnel" their on-ball opponent. All NBA defenses expect their guards to challenge outside shots.

Right, wrong or more complicated than I'm making it?

Right!

You are basically saying something I have said for years. Perimeter defense is overrated. As long as the defender puts out a reasonable amount of effort, the impact of an average defender and a top level perimeter defender is minimal.

Where defense is really made is with the big men.

Cool, it's always nice to have you agree with me on X-O stuff...makes me feel that I haven't completely lost my coaching eye.

Still, with all this said, there are some guards who just aren't very interested in defending or are inconsistent in their interest and cause problems for their teams. From personal observation, I put Crawford in this category. Would you put Smith in this category as well?

[suckfish]

Defense starts on the perimeter, and while strong interior defenders can lessen the impact of poor perimeter play, it can never make up for it. Staying in front of the offensive player, and not letting him get where he wants, keeps the need of help defender coming, and opening hole to a player closer to the basket, where scoring is more efficient.

Very few perimeter/wing defenders are capable of doing that though simply because NBA guards/forwards are way too talented and can penetrate past a single defender almost at will. The offensive player will always have the advantage over the defender because he is the one initiating the attack. The defender is on the back foot responding.

Good NBA players are too talented to be locked up on the perimeter by a single man.

That's why at this level individual perimeter defenders almost never have the impact of individual shot blockers and interior defenders.

Perimeter defense in the NBA is more about team defense than individual, while interior defense is more about having an individual who can alter shots and block paths/bodies.

At lower levels perimeter defense can be more important as poor ball handlers can be mugged using full court pressing defense before the ball even gets over the timeline. Not in the NBA though.

[bentheredengthat]

I agree and disagree. Thibs' defense is basically the baseline funnel on steroids. Help comes as soon as an offensive player makes a move, as opposed to a few steps later when the guy is fully committed. The upside is that help gets to the man before he gets close to the rim making it really hard to draw a foul or get a good shot off. The downside is that the help defense has to be much, much sharper as the likelihood of a pass is greater. If the Bulls helped early and then didn't rotate ultra quick, you would have a ton of wide open shots.

thanks for this insight, helps me get to the next level of understanding the difference between our funneling and typical funneling.

This whole scheme makes sense to me because I played both soccer & basketball in high school. In soccer, the coach just wanted us to funnel offensive players with the ball anywhere but the center. If you had any speed at all it made it simple to man-on-man defend. The key was not letting him turn the corner once he went left or right.

Then when basketball season started, you were to get in perfect defensive stance, on your toes, knees bent, etc and suddenly you were responsible for whatever direction the ball handler wanted to go - left, right, or being in perfect position for the charge if you got in front of him. We became very good at this (made people cry at that level ) but the skill level wasn't very high we were playing against.

[coldfish]

I completely disagree.

Defense starts on the perimeter, and while strong interior defenders can lessen the impact of poor perimeter play, it can never make up for it. Staying in front of the offensive player, and not letting him get where he wants, keeps the need of help defender coming, and opening hole to a player closer to the basket, where scoring is more efficient. It is easier to stay in front of your guy, by backing off some, but it is also important to stay close so that wing player does not have an uncontested shot. The ability to fight through screen, so you are not forced to constantly switch, is also important to minimize the amount of open looks. In addition to the system, you need to have players capable of player their roles. When Hinrich was in the games, he was always up harassing the player, and fighting through every screen. The one disaster year with an early Rose, and Gordon were on the floor together, they played 4’ off their men, and switched on every pick. It was a disaster that cascaded through the rest of the defense.

Even when you have a great system, and great defensive players, you have breakdowns, and you have plans for what you, like funneling players to a particular spot. You also define ways to defend great offensive players that require players to form a double team to help by design, and not just from a breakdown. A coach’s comment to funnel a player to a particular spot does not state that they let the player go, it could be forcing him to a spot where he is less efficient, or looking to double team a dangerous player.

You can build your defense around the players you have, and you can bring in the players you need to make your defense work, except during the off-season, you are doing the former, even though no matter how good of a defensive guru you are, you can only hide so many liabilities. Enough poor defenders on the floor at the same time, the more need for help defenses, and worst case having to play more of a zone defense. Rose’s defense continues to improve, and I expect that he will be at least above average this season, so unless the pair him with another guard who is a defensive liability, they should be able to withstand a player, like Boozer, in the frontcourt.

Having a frontcourt of Howard, and Noah could help make up for the deficiencies of wing players, but having the front court being the most important part of a defense only happens when you have a very weak backcourt to cover up. That is why backcourt players are the most important players to this Thibs Bulls team, and why you can expect to see a good defensive player in the backcourt with Rose most of the time.

I'm not sure that you completely disagree as much as missed my points. I did say that doing the things I listed were extremely important to the functioning of the defense. If you have defenders that just watch their men go by, the defense isn't going to work at all and the big men have no chance to make up for it.

I just think that as long as the guy is interested in doing his job and actually tries, you are going to have 90% of the impact of the best of the perimeter defenders. This is opposed to big men, where speed, size, length and athleticism have a much bigger impact on the results. A big man who tries who is short (for his position), slow and can't jump isn't going to have 90% of the impact of an elite defensive big man, no matter how hard he tries.

Maybe that's just because if you have a short guard who is slow and can't jump, they aren't even in the NBA to start with.

[ManualRam]

individual perimeter defense does matter when the opposition overloads the weakside and either goes side PnR or iso, which happens very often. that's where guys like korver get picked on and exposed. is rip a good enough defender to not be picked on?
i know he's scrappy but he doesnt have the strength to provide some resistance when guys like d.wade are trying to carry him to the cup. he'll get put on wade's hip and he'll stay there.

[TeamMan]

Great stuff!!!

After the lockout, and the long wait for our Bogan's replacement this is totally refreshing to read.

[kyrv]

One thing I've wondered with Thibs' defense, is if the Bulls will ever determine that the 4/5 are soooo important that they are just defensive positions and that the scoring should come from 1 to 3.

Not saying I agree with this, and if they think that, why did they sign Boozer, but wondering what other people think about this. This isn't about bashing Boozer, I'm not really a Boozer basher, it's more on the philosophy and this kind of comes up when discussing potential trades for Granger/Iggy/Ellis et al.

[CalilLove89]

One thing I've wondered with Thibs' defense, is if the Bulls will ever determine that the 4/5 are soooo important that they are just defensive positions and that the scoring should come from 1 to 3.

Not saying I agree with this, and if they think that, why did they sign Boozer, but wondering what other people think about this. This isn't about bashing Boozer, I'm not really a Boozer basher, it's more on the philosophy and this kind of comes up when discussing potential trades for Granger/Iggy/Ellis et al.

Boozer definitely gets sets called for him, so I believe they are looking for 18 points a game from him.

Noah is the garbage man on the boards, and I cannot for the life of me pick out a play that is clearly set up for Noah, only if he gets great position (usually by beating his guy down the court) will they force the ball into him.

The foundation of our offense is penetration by Rose and Deng, defense collapses and they dump it off to Boozer or Noah for the dunk (if the dunk isn't there kick out for a reset or 3). The problem with this is Noah and Boozer cannot catch the ball which is supremely frustrating.

I believe that this system is in theory balanced, the problem is Noah and Boozer have drastically underperformed recently (due to injury, or your personal reasoning)