Rose and the Pick and Roll Update--more video pg. 5

[alucryts]

I've seen a significant increase in pick and roll quality lately, and I figured I would post some videos. Rose has evolved his pick and roll game lately.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yWHUuScchk&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]
Here Rose gets the ball on the shoulder and runs a pick and roll between he, Noah, and Deng. Noah sets a screen to allow Rose to go towards the middle of the floor. For some godforsaken reason the Hornets play the screen defender off of the pick and roll. As Rose and Noah storm the paint, Rose sees that Noah was not able to slide inside of Deng's defender for an open dunk. Seeing this, Rose hits Deng for a wide open shot. The key to all of these pick and rolls is whether or not the roll man (Noah here) can slip inside of the defender that is guarding a player in the corner. If Noah can slip inside of that player, it is an open dunk. If he cannot, that means that the wing player is wide open. What is so new about this? Rose has slowed down and learned the intricate timing of the pick and roll. Notice how long Rose holds the ball as he enters the paint. When he jumps for a pass, he looks at where Deng's defender is and that dictates the location of the pass. The timing aspect is that Rose has learned to hit the roll man at the right time. Before, Rose would hit the roll man much too soon on the roll. The rotation to not allow Noah to slip inside of the corner defender is much less likely if Noah doesn't have the ball yet. Rose's PnR passing timing has taken a big leap this last week.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUrE9Kdj7Ss&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]
This play is borderline hilarious because of the amount of attention Rose has. He has two defenders on him waiting to double him at an instant. Rose sees this and walks the ball all the way to the wing isolating verse the double team. This breaks that silly defense and forces the Hornets to go into a regular defense. Another thing that this does is that it forces Brewer's defender on the other shoulder out of the play. Notice where this pick and roll happens (especially Noah); He is a few steps below the three point line. Rose penetrates for a 2 on 1 with Noah's defender. Notice how Rose waits until Noah is in position ready to drive; the defense has no chance. Rose before would pass it to Noah almost immediately off of the pick and roll allowing the defense to react.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH1CC2vIqGY&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]
Here is a play that isn't as much about timing as it is about where Noah sets the screen. Noah sets the screen a single step inside the three point line. Not a big difference? Well, that extra step is what allowed Noah to get inside Deng's defender. After Noah gets inside that defender, he makes a really nice layup. Look how wide open Deng comes on this play as well .

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN4GR4qGq48&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]
This play shows a much better selection in pick and roll partner on hedges. The defense hedges, and Deng comes wide open in the wing. If the defense hedges, Deng and Boozer have to be the partners coming wide open into the wing. Also, the Bulls offense could use some more surprise screens that happen so quickly the defense cannot react quick enough to hedge.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN2s6dlsJAQ&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]
Here is another play about screen positioning. Boozer catches the pass at the elbow, and Kaman has absolutely no chance to recover and help on Boozer. Notice how good Boozer has looked on these rolls lately with him catching the pass close enough to the basket to surprise and out-quick the rotations.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzKd-qmxjD4&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]
This play shows another aspect to look out for. The defender that Noah has to get inside of for an open dunk here is too small to deal with Noah having that much momentum. Rose times this pass and slows it down enough to let Noah build a head of steam. If Rose passes to Noah before he has a head of steam, we get to watch the awkward dribble Noah show before a terrible drive to the rim encore. Noah with a head of steam is deadly on the pick and roll.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWmSyTQrgQk&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]
This is the crown jewel of examples. Rose and Noah run a pick and roll. Deng's defender sees that he is the one responsible for stepping in front of Noah. You even see him hop around a bit thinking whether or not he should leave Deng for Noah. If Rose passes right away, that defender slides over and we get a dead play. Rose waits for it to be too late for that defender, and passes to Noah with a head of steam so close to the basket that he doesn't even dribble. The defender under the rim might as well have been standing under the rim on a fast break with Noah barreling down on him for as much momentum as Noah got. This play featured perfect pass timing as well as letting Noah get a head of steam. These are Amare/Nash level pick and rolls.

Right now Rose is on another level in terms of pick and roll passing. This level of pick and roll passing is on par with Deron in Utah and Nash in Phoenix. One thing that we have to see is this happening against better defenses. These are examples from some rather poor defensive teams. Let's see if it keeps up against stiffer competition before we can actually put him in or even near the discussion of the great pick and roll point guards.

Here is the link to the Miami thread viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1149605

[WinCity]

I haven't even read it all but wanted to thank you prematurely. I do most things prematurely. My girlfriend hates that about me. Love your work!

[alucryts]

I haven't even read it all but wanted to thank you prematurely. I do most things prematurely. My girlfriend hates that about me. Love your work!

Thanks for the kind words.

[alucryts]

This thread also shows kind of what Rose was doing last night. He was going around being injured and hobbling; he was playing pass first point guard running some very nice pick and rolls. He wasn't looking to score off of these at all. That entire game was him running the offense.

[Bluewaterheaven]

Awesome, this is real good work!!!

[theanimal23]

Can you please post a link to your other big threads in the past, thanks. And thank you for this analysis.

[alucryts]

Isn't it like night and day when you watch pick and roll that has proper point guard pass timing and better screen positioning? Even when we run the high pick and roll now, we run it so that Noah has more room to gain momentum.

[TechMansoor]

Easily one of the reasons you are a forum mod sir!! Great work...

At the end of all the explanations , you should have quoted Denzel in He got game because not only are you illustrating the new effectiveness of D-Rose's pick and roll game..

but..

"I'm teaching brother, I'm teaching son, I'm teaching" - Jake Shuttlesworth

that you are...


lol..not a direct quote i guess..

but again awesome work..

[alucryts]

Can you please post a link to your other big threads in the past, thanks. And thank you for this analysis.

I put it at the end of the post. Through that there is another link and they are all connected by links.

[alucryts]

Easily one of the reasons you are a forum mod sir!! Great work...

At the end of all the explanations , you should have quoted Denzel in He got game because not only are you illustrating the new effectiveness of D-Rose's pick and roll game..

but..

"I'm teaching brother, I'm teaching son, I'm teaching" - Jake Shuttlesworth

that you are...


lol..not a direct quote i guess..

but again awesome work..

Haha thanks. Another thing that this thread shows is that Rose is learning how to play at less than 100 mph. He realizes that every pick and roll doesn't need him coming off of it at 100 mph barreling towards the paint. The next steps I hope that we see going forward are a lot more of the 7th example (last one). It shows Rose slowing down his dribble in the paint. If Rose can do this more, he will be able to not only hit more plays like the one to Noah, but he will be able to then kick it into gear a lot closer to the rim. Steve Nash is an absolute master of this.

[bigfan26]

I wish i could kidnap you and force you to make these threads each and everyday. I always enjoy reading your posts especially about Pick and roll basketball.

His passing the last few games has been very good, noticeable better than at the beginning of the year. It probably has something to do with his injury and him not attacking the rim as much but instead looking for his teammates off the Pick and Roll.

The Pick and Roll with boozer whenever i see an example of it happening around the elbow or free throw area it always results in a layup for boozer, because the help rotation just can't get there in time. Boozer's already one step away from the rim after the catch.

I want to see how Derrick's passing holds up against the philly's, indiana's, and Miami's because their defense have athletic wings that can play the passing lanes as well as recover to their shooters.

A little off topic, when teams hard double Derrick when he uses a pick it seems to me like he always waits a split second after he gets doubled to pass the ball, is that the correct play? It seems like a better idea to anticipate the double and get rid of the ball as the double arrives.

i'll try to find an example.

[alucryts]

I wish i could kidnap you and force you to make these threads each and everyday. I always enjoy reading your posts especially about Pick and roll basketball.

His passing the last few games has been very good, noticeable better than at the beginning of the year. It probably has something to do with his injury and him not attacking the rim as much but instead looking for his teammates off the Pick and Roll.

The Pick and Roll with boozer whenever i see an example of it happening around the elbow or free throw area it always results in a layup for boozer, because the help rotation just can't get there in time. Boozer's already one step away from the rim after the catch.

I want to see how Derrick's passing holds up against the philly's, indiana's, and Miami's because their defense have athletic wings that can play the passing lanes as well as recover to their shooters.

A little off topic, when teams hard double Derrick when he uses a pick it seems to me like he always waits a split second after he gets doubled to pass the ball, is that the correct play? It seems like a better idea to anticipate the double and get rid of the ball as the double arrives.

i'll try to find an example.

I know exactly what you are talking about. Rose needs to wait just long enough to let the player on the back end get to his spot. Rotations don't start until a player has the ball in the NBA or they come ridiculously wide open. The longer Rose lets a player get set up without a rotation the better. He has to make the pass as a tertiary defender begins his rotation to the player he will pass to. This is commonly seen in plays where defenses hedge out against Rose and we slip a screener into the wing in the shape of Boozer or Deng.

On normal pick and rolls, you see the lack of off ball rotation against Noah a lot in these examples. Defenders simply do not rotate to him unless he has the ball in his hands, and this is a deadly flaw in defenses. Deng will become an extremely important shooter against defenses without this flaw.

[kyrv]

I've seen a significant increase in pick and roll quality lately

Oh now you are just teasing us. But seriously thanks again for the efforts.

Not to sidetrack, but I'm watching and it seems *in general* most teams try to play the same defense, going over screens, big shows, switching on D on a blow by, just, some teams do it way better. I don't think anyone plays mostly zone or strictly man to man, but rather team help defense?

Getting back to un-hijack, I think one of the subtle differences can be how teams handle the PnR. Re-hijack, why doesn't Melo and Amare run the PnR wouldn't that be deadly times a big number?

Thanks again for the efforts. Pretty fascinating. Stacey isn't the best but he does diagram some plays showing who goes where (both good and bad plays). That stuff is fun.

[alucryts]

I've seen a significant increase in pick and roll quality lately

Oh now you are just teasing us. But seriously thanks again for the efforts.

Not to sidetrack, but I'm watching and it seems *in general* most teams try to play the same defense, going over screens, big shows, switching on D on a blow by, just, some teams do it way better. I don't think anyone plays mostly zone or strictly man to man, but rather team help defense?

Getting back to un-hijack, I think one of the subtle differences can be how teams handle the PnR. Re-hijack, why doesn't Melo and Amare run the PnR wouldn't that be deadly times a big number?

Thanks again for the efforts. Pretty fascinating. Stacey isn't the best but he does diagram some plays showing who goes where (both good and bad plays). That stuff is fun.

The way teams handle it is a very good point. An easy key to watch for in real time is what happens on a high pick and roll. If the screen defender is in Rose's face on a hedge/trap, we should see open jump shots. If the screen defender stays back in the paint like 6 out of these 7, we TORCH that. Rose kills this defense both by scoring and now by passing.

Screen defender sags: torch the defense
Screen defender hedges: jump shots and struggling

That is our team to a "T" right now and something people can watch for during live games to know what to look for in real time. Something Rose can improve: =iIf the screen defender does hedge out on Rose, Rose needs to stretch the trap out very far by trying to go over the top of the screen defender hedge. This causes major problems for the trap if done correctly.

[kyrv]

^^ This sort of blends in with existing threads and probably some people are tired of it, but maybe Rose wasn't going full throttle because he was doing what he needed and smartly conserving energy (to me he didn't look 100%).

From your wording, is that your guess? That would make us happy campers. ;p

And yep as mentioned above, great PnR's and two man games can make the game look soooo easy.

[Fast Dont Fib]

This is fantastic news for people who would like to enjoy Derrick six, or seven years from now, and for now of course too.

Thanks as always for the vids/explanations.

[alucryts]

^^ This sort of blends in with existing threads and probably some people are tired of it, but maybe Rose wasn't going full throttle because he was doing what he needed and smartly conserving energy (to me he didn't look 100%).

From your wording, is that your guess? That would make us happy campers. ;p

And yep as mentioned above, great PnR's and two man games can make the game look soooo easy.

He was conserving energy and playing at half speed last night. We aren't used to seeing Rose play at half speed ever, so when he does purposefully we kind of assume he is injured. Yes, he probably wasn't 100%, but he didn't have to go 100% so he went 50% and was a significantly improved play maker for it.

[Fast Dont Fib]

Id be curious to rewatch the game in Toronto last year where Rose played with a bum elbow. That game had a similar vibe, so far as Derrick not looking to attack, and just facilitate at a slower pace. Just to give myself an eye test of the difference in play between a year ago and now.

[kyrv]

^^ This sort of blends in with existing threads and probably some people are tired of it, but maybe Rose wasn't going full throttle because he was doing what he needed and smartly conserving energy (to me he didn't look 100%).

From your wording, is that your guess? That would make us happy campers. ;p

And yep as mentioned above, great PnR's and two man games can make the game look soooo easy.

He was conserving energy and playing at half speed last night. We aren't used to seeing Rose play at half speed ever, so when he does purposefully we kind of assume he is injured. Yes, he probably wasn't 100%, but he didn't have to go 100% so he went 50% and was a significantly improved play maker for it.

People did note last night that he did make several Rose type athletic plays without screaming in pain, which, from having back spams, is a very possible outcome. ;p I know that's over analyzing his every move but Rose is the franchise. I should have probably accepted that he was cleared and okay to play or he wouldn't have played.

Back to PnR, do you have a guess on how often they run the PnR with Rose and other players, like not exact but who is the most common person? Seems like they don't run it much with Deng, is that accurate? And does Watson run the PnR or not so much?

[alucryts]

^^ This sort of blends in with existing threads and probably some people are tired of it, but maybe Rose wasn't going full throttle because he was doing what he needed and smartly conserving energy (to me he didn't look 100%).

From your wording, is that your guess? That would make us happy campers. ;p

And yep as mentioned above, great PnR's and two man games can make the game look soooo easy.

He was conserving energy and playing at half speed last night. We aren't used to seeing Rose play at half speed ever, so when he does purposefully we kind of assume he is injured. Yes, he probably wasn't 100%, but he didn't have to go 100% so he went 50% and was a significantly improved play maker for it.

People did note last night that he did make several Rose type athletic plays without screaming in pain, which, from having back spams, is a very possible outcome. ;p I know that's over analyzing his every move but Rose is the franchise. I should have probably accepted that he was cleared and okay to play or he wouldn't have played.

Back to PnR, do you have a guess on how often they run the PnR with Rose and other players, like not exact but who is the most common person? Seems like they don't run it much with Deng, is that accurate? And does Watson run the PnR or not so much?

Just guessing, we run it the most with Noah, second with Boozer. Watson runs it but he is no where near as good as Rose at running it. That is why Melo/Amare wouldn't be all that great. The ball handler has to have quick guard dribbles and excellent decision making/understanding of positioning during the whole pick and roll.