Tony Allen>Carlos Boozer???

[chadrucf]

Ask yourself who has made more game changing plays in the last two years. If you say Boozer you're lying to yourself

If you mean highlight reel plays, then sure. But that is a poor way to judge players. Boozer is more productive and consistent. It shouldn't matter if he is flashy.

[patryk7754]

Ask yourself who has made more game changing plays in the last two years. If you say Boozer you're lying to yourself

If you mean highlight reel plays, then sure. But that is a poor way to judge players. Boozer is more productive and consistent. It shouldn't matter if he is flashy.

Its a poor way of judging players? The Grizzlies have won by far more games because of Allen's defense than Boozer's offense. Game changing plays don't equal highlight reel, they equal the reason why your team won the game and Allen has made way more than Boozer.

[chadrucf]

The Grizzlies have won by far more games because of Allen's defense than Boozer's offense.

I agree. But only because Boozer doesn't play for the Grizzlies.

Are you ignoring rebounding in your evaluations?

[patryk7754]

The Grizzlies have won by far more games because of Allen's defense than Boozer's offense.

I agree. But only because Boozer doesn't play for the Grizzlies.

Are you ignoring rebounding in your evaluations?

Are you saying Boozer is better than Allen because of rebounding? By that logic he's better than Rose, Durant, James, Kobe, and Paul.

[greenwing]

The Grizzlies have won by far more games because of Allen's defense than Boozer's offense.

I agree. But only because Boozer doesn't play for the Grizzlies.

Are you ignoring rebounding in your evaluations?

Are you saying Boozer is better than Allen because of rebounding? By that logic he's better than Rose, Durant, James, Kobe, and Paul.

I suppose with the intangibles supercedes production argument that you've been implying so far as I can tell, Brian Scalabrine was worth an all-star caliber player based on his "intangibles"? If it's a choice between having a productive player on my team and one who mainly adds intangibles, I'd go with production since it's a more reliable indicator of success.

[patryk7754]

I never said Boozer is worse than Allen. I said they're not comparable because they are polar opposites. You say production like you can only get production on offense. Allen is better at he does best than Boozer is at what he does. This is not arguable. Your (as a coach) preference of these two players should depend on what type of roster you have. Also Boozer doesn't produce that much.

[patryk7754]

Carlos Boozer was 41st in scoring in 2011-12. Allen averaged 5 points less. Boozer is a "scorer" Allen is not so, Boozer should average more than 5 points than someone who's that bad on offense. Allen is a top 5 defender Boozer can't defend his computer from a virus. I'd say Allen is more productive because you do have to play defense when playing basketball plus his intangibles are better.

[BJ43]

I just wanted to say I hardly post here any more, and every time I enter a thread like this and read some of the posts and start to reply, about half way through I just delete everything I've written and think to myself, it's not worth it

If people want to believe Mayo, or Allen, or George or whoever else they think is better than Boozer, I cant be bothered wasting my time anymore, getting too old for this...because Boozer is a poor defender then he gets made the scapegoat as the board always has to have at least one...as if a player of his abilities that also plays great defense is such a common thing and would be available easily at that price...

[drivewayball]

gotta say I agree with BJ43. I don't understand how Boozer the player can be under constant attack by fans ... If they don't like his play, all complaints should be lodged at the management who signed him or his coaching staff. The real point here is that the Bulls got exactly what they bought with Boozer. No player is more consistent with his statistical production on a per floor minute basis over the last five years than Carlos. He shoots 53-55% and grabs a rebound every three minutes or so. All other stats are consistent as well. Since Carlos joined the Bulls, I don't think a team in the NBA has won more games than the Bulls.

[MAQ]

gotta say I agree with BJ43. I don't understand how Boozer the player can be under constant attack by fans ... If they don't like his play, all complaints should be lodged at the management who signed him or his coaching staff. The real point here is that the Bulls got exactly what they bought with Boozer. No player is more consistent with his statistical production on a per floor minute basis over the last five years than Carlos. He shoots 53-55% and grabs a rebound every three minutes or so. All other stats are consistent as well. Since Carlos joined the Bulls, I don't think a team in the NBA has won more games than the Bulls.

The Boozer complaints didn't get LOUD and constant until his no show in the playoffs last year. During the regular season, people pointed out he didn't play defense, and they pointed it out often because it was true...But the true dogging of Boozer didn't come until he was unable to perform in the 2010-2011 post season.

That left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, and carried on to the shortened 2011-2012 season. That's when we got the "Bum Slayer" nickname. And with his chance to redeem himself in the eyes of a lot of fans in the 2011-2012 postseason, he did not improve on last years disappointment.

When it's accepted that you're not going to play defense, the least that should be expected (in the post season) is that you consistently look like a good scoring option. He doesn't consistently do that.

[BR0D1E86]

Well I hate Boozer more than anyone so I want to agree with you, but in good faith I cannot say David Lee is a better player.

Better rebounder better passer better defender and at worst they are equal on offense

Boozer's got the better rebounding %, assist %, has the lower defensive rating and more defensive win shares than David Lee.

But sure, Lee's better at all those things.

Thanks for not addressing this. I'd considered digging through several of your posts in this thread but decided it would have been a waste of time.

Also, they're comparable on offense. They have basically the same efficiency. But Boozer scores more per minute.

[kyrv]

I just wanted to say I hardly post here any more, and every time I enter a thread like this and read some of the posts and start to reply, about half way through I just delete everything I've written and think to myself, it's not worth it

If people want to believe Mayo, or Allen, or George or whoever else they think is better than Boozer, I cant be bothered wasting my time anymore, getting too old for this...because Boozer is a poor defender then he gets made the scapegoat as the board always has to have at least one...as if a player of his abilities that also plays great defense is such a common thing and would be available easily at that price...

I agree, well stated.

[kyrv]

Thanks for not addressing this. I'd considered digging through several of your posts in this thread but decided it would have been a waste of time.

Also, they're comparable on offense. They have basically the same efficiency. But Boozer scores more per minute.

But if the Bulls had Lee maybe they would have had the best record in the league the past two seasons. That would have been cool.

[chadrucf]

Carlos Boozer was 41st in scoring in 2011-12. Allen averaged 5 points less. Boozer is a "scorer" Allen is not so, Boozer should average more than 5 points than someone who's that bad on offense. Allen is a top 5 defender Boozer can't defend his computer from a virus. I'd say Allen is more productive because you do have to play defense when playing basketball plus his intangibles are better.

Why are you using points per game when better statistics are available?

I brought up rebounding because it is a part of the game you have not factored into your offense vs. defense structure.

[bullsnewdynasty]

gotta say I agree with BJ43. I don't understand how Boozer the player can be under constant attack by fans ... If they don't like his play, all complaints should be lodged at the management who signed him or his coaching staff. The real point here is that the Bulls got exactly what they bought with Boozer. No player is more consistent with his statistical production on a per floor minute basis over the last five years than Carlos. He shoots 53-55% and grabs a rebound every three minutes or so. All other stats are consistent as well. Since Carlos joined the Bulls, I don't think a team in the NBA has won more games than the Bulls.

The Boozer complaints didn't get LOUD and constant until his no show in the playoffs last year. During the regular season, people pointed out he didn't play defense, and they pointed it out often because it was true...But the true dogging of Boozer didn't come until he was unable to perform in the 2010-2011 post season.

That left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, and carried on to the shortened 2011-2012 season. That's when we got the "Bum Slayer" nickname. And with his chance to redeem himself in the eyes of a lot of fans in the 2011-2012 postseason, he did not improve on last years disappointment.

When it's accepted that you're not going to play defense, the least that should be expected (in the post season) is that you consistently look like a good scoring option. He doesn't consistently do that.

Great post, 100% correct, but it will probably get ignored by most of the irrational Boozer defenders.