OT: Grammar School Shooting in Connecticut

[CalilLove89]

Responsible gun ownership is a complete joke. A lack of responsibility isn't what lead to today's deaths.

If he STOLE guns from his parents, then that contributed to the tragedy, and is poor gun ownership.

You can't TEACH responsibility to a murderer.

You can't stop a MURDERER from MURDERING, because to be a MURDERER you have to have MURDERED.

I agree that people are crazy and that is the number one issue.

[HomoSapien]

You can't stop a MURDERER from MURDERING, because to be a MURDERER you have to have MURDERED.

I agree that people are crazy and that is the number one issue.

But you can make it really **** hard for a murderer to get access to a gun.

[GetBuLLish]

You do realize the guy today was a legal gun owner, right? The scary part about today is that this person didn't commit a crime until he used the guns.

Didn't he steal the guns from his mom...?

Did his mom but them legally or no? It's not illegal to possess a firearm that you yourself didn't buy. What's harder for him, getting guns illegally or getting them from his mother?

So are you advocating a complete ban on guns?

[CalilLove89]

WE HAVE BUY BACK PROGRAMS ALL THE TIME and nobody participates, I don't care what Australia does, America is statistically a more violent nation, and thats not just guns, thats all crime.

Again you don't know what your dealing with when it comes to America 17,000,000 guns were bought so far this year, legally.

Almost all the proposed fixes to gun control in this thread have been implemented in one area or another in the United States, In some places certain things work, in some places they absolutely do not work.

Some places even mandate ownership, you get all kinds of weird things here.

I responded with what we did here, because it was a method that limited and increased restrictions, which is what i've been saying, but you've been making it out that i want a full ban immediately, which isn't true.

No, im not American, i don't live there and i don't know the climate, but im not responding to that.

What im responding to is the fact that im consistently told it's the greatest country in the world, yet you're all scared of your own safety and feel the need to bare arms for protection.

As an outsider, to me, their is something inherently wrong in the mindset that when events like this occur, that people go out and buy more guns, rather than trying to find methods in ways to decrease the usage and deaths that come from them, be it in mass situations like we've witnessed of late, or the daily usage of such powerful weapons against the common man.

I am not defending America, I am defending my family, I think there are more crazy people in America than other countries, thats why I own a gun, and choose not to live in a population center, I make choices every day that stack the odds in my favor, and If you think I am paranoid, events like today, and the recent natural disasters show what a thin veneer of a civilized society we live in.

[AirP.]

Well, if not guns to protect them, here's a young mother and daughter who may have been killed.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... MwabG-jY2A
Here's a 12 year old who called her mom on a break in and the mother told her where they hid their gun and she may have been killed also.
http://kfor.com/2012/10/18/preteen-shoo ... r-in-home/

Both this year in Oklahoma, I'm sure if you look around in all the states you'll find more and more people who saved their lives because they were armed.

People need to be able to defend themselves.

[CalilLove89]

You can't stop a MURDERER from MURDERING, because to be a MURDERER you have to have MURDERED.

I agree that people are crazy and that is the number one issue.

But you can make it really **** hard for a murderer to get access to a gun.

He is still a murderer, and thats the problem, our culture seems to breed more murderers than other cultures, that is the main problem.

[HomoSapien]

You can't stop a MURDERER from MURDERING, because to be a MURDERER you have to have MURDERED.

I agree that people are crazy and that is the number one issue.

But you can make it really **** hard for a murderer to get access to a gun.

He is still a murderer, and thats the problem, our culture seems to breed more murderers than other cultures, that is the main problem.

And if that's the case, how could you possibly be advocating the right to own guns?

[patryk7754]

@calilove
So just because banning guns wouldn't solve every problem means that we shouldn't do it. 47% is a huge number. If a ban a guns would of saved at least one of those babies' lives than it would be worth it.

I can make up numbers to look at this one 2398842903, that was Australia, this is America, we have a different attitude and culture.

Violence is guaranteed to go down if you the things the assist in said violence regardless of what country you live in. I can almost guarantee that these cowards would be to scared step on a spider without their guns. You take their guns away things like this wouldn't happen.

[CalilLove89]

And if that's the case, how could you possibly be advocating the right to own guns?

To defend myself, and you seem to be fine with the fact that our culture breeds murderers, all you care about is guns.

[GetBuLLish]

HS, would you support a ban on violent video games? Violent movies? Violent lyrics in songs? Alcohol?

It can pretty easily be argued that all the above things can or do lead to more gun violence.

[CalilLove89]

@calilove
So just because banning guns wouldn't solve every problem means that we shouldn't do it. 47% is a huge number. If a ban a guns would of saved at least one of those babies' lives than it would be worth it.

I can make up numbers to look at this one 2398842903, that was Australia, this is America, we have a different attitude and culture.

Violence is guaranteed to go down if you the things the assist in said violence regardless of what country you live in. I can almost guarantee that these cowards would be to scared step on a spider without their guns. You take their guns away things like this wouldn't happen.

In good faith I will not make that same guarantee, and again it would take decades to remove all guns from the USA

[HomoSapien]

And if that's the case, how could you possibly be advocating the right to own guns?

To defend myself, and you seem to be fine with the fact that our culture breeds murderers, all you care about is guns.

Nice, try. Seriously. Nice. You, think I'm ok with murderers. Awesome argument, CaliLove. That really adds a lot to this conversation.

My reasoning is that it's a lot harder to eliminate "crazy" than it is to eliminate guns.

[HomoSapien]

HS, would you support a ban on violent video games? Violent movies? Violent lyrics in songs? Alcohol?

It can pretty easily be argued that all the above things can or do lead to more gun violence.

No. A video game cannot murder a person. A gun can.

[CalilLove89]

And if that's the case, how could you possibly be advocating the right to own guns?

To defend myself, and you seem to be fine with the fact that our culture breeds murderers, all you care about is guns.

Nice, try. Seriously. Nice. You, think I'm ok with murderers. Awesome argument, CaliLove.

My reasoning is that it's a lot harder to eliminate "crazy" than it is to eliminate guns.

You havent done your research, again 17,000,000 guns sold this year, and you think we can get them all out.

By the way, guns can last for 100's of years if you keep them well maintained, so once they are sold, they will be around for a long time.

[CalilLove89]

HS, would you support a ban on violent video games? Violent movies? Violent lyrics in songs? Alcohol?

It can pretty easily be argued that all the above things can or do lead to more gun violence.

No. A video game cannot murder a person. A gun can.

So you don't believe in cultural influence, music, movies, nobody can be influenced?

[HomoSapien]

You havent done your research, again 17,000,000 guns sold this year, and you think we can get them all out.

By the way, guns can last for 100's of years if you keep them well maintained, so once they are sold, they will be around for a long time.

I'll say it once again to you. Stop selling new guns to new owners. It's a start.

So even if it takes a 100 years, your argument is that it is not worth it?

[kingkirk]

In good faith I will not make that same guarantee, and again it would take decades to remove all guns from the USA

You can't remove all guns from any country, its not a realistic target, but that doesn't mean you can't try to get rid of many as possible.

So long as there is a buck to be made, guns will exist in any country.

Can we limit the impact and readiness to procure such weapons? You bet we can, and im sure it would limit the deaths caused by weapons, so long as an education process, strong regulations, penalties and culutre changes towards a gun in America is also worked on.

If any president could do this, it would be such an amazing achievement.

Problem is, it's too big of a political risk, to stick their heads out and make a stand, and that's damn depressing, as a a citizen of this planet.

[johnnyvann840]

First, this is obviously a tragedy, and I feel for the parents, friends, family, community affected by this.

Second, it's silly to start trying to use this as any kind of reference for life in America or laws that should be changed. One of the (good) reasons this is such a tragedy is that no one goes into a school and kills 20+ kids on a regular basis. If they did, we wouldn't think it's a tragedy, we'd think it's just part of life.

You don't change gun laws because someone who's clearly severely mentally ill went in and shot up a school. You don't say society has fallen to pieces because someone who's clearly severely mentally ill went in and shot up a school. This isn't a gun problem, it isn't a societal problem, it's a crazy person problem.

It's more complex than being a crazy person problem. Mass shootings are becoming more and more common. It is really easy to get a gun. That's the problem.

Should we go back to alcohol prohibition? Serious question and it's not off topic.

Because you are talking about a handful of isolated incidents that have killed, what, 100 people or less in the last decade? if that. Now I'm not marginalizing any lives, cause all life is precious to me. Especially the lost lives of those children today. But I think Doug makes a good point about not thinking we should change the laws every time we have an isolated incident like these.

I posted this earlier in thread cause I think it's relevant in this discussion. We are talking about the senseless loss of life and prevention through laws.

Again, I ask.. Should we go back to alcohol prohibition?

Could only find the data from two years ago but...

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811402EE.pdf

Persons killed in “Alcohol Related” and “Alcohol Impaired” vehicular accidents
Year
2005 15,985
2006 15,970
2007 15,534
2008 13,826
2009 12,744

--------------------------
According to the FBI CIUS (Crime in the US) 2009 data taken from

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/off...rtable_08.html

Persons Murdered by Firearms:
2005 10,158
2006 10,225
2007 10,129
2008 9,528
2009 9,146


Does this mean we should go back to prohibition (which didn't work anyway) cause a lot more children and innocents are killed by alcohol related vehicular accidents than guns? A lot easier to get rid of consumables than guns.. And this data doesn't include the non motor vehicle related alcohol related deaths which is a HUGE number.

Also, many of the firearm related homicides are gang related or resulted from border shootings over drug smuggling territories and things of that nature. Very, very few of these are from psychos shooting up schools or shopping malls.

But the point is that most people drink, but they don't kill people driving drunk. Should we ban all alcohol in the nation again because so many lives are lost on our roads? Of course not, right? For several reasons..

Prohibition didn't stop people from drinking, it actually increased it,... and worse, it increased children drinking. GarPaxDorf posted the stats earlier in the thread. Stopping the sale of guns is not going to prevent any gun crimes. Studies have already shown that gun control doesn't work.

I'm pretty sure the following post from the basketball shooting in Philly thread is from a police officer, BR0D1E86.. correct me if I'm wrong.

Chicago has some of the toughest gun control laws in the country. Working out well?

Washington DC had more or less the toughest gun laws in the country for about three decades. During those years the DC murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was when the law was enacted. The murder rate in the country as a whole decreased by 11%.

The 31 states that have "shall issue" laws allowing private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons. In fact, the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states.

Also, I'm not against regulation and background checks and age limits, but we have people for the outright banning of all guns and it's just not realistic. Nor, is just stopping the sale guns in this country.

[GetBuLLish]

No. A video game cannot murder a person. A gun can.

But this is what you said:

There is no such thing as absolute results. The idea is to get progressively better.

And if violent video games (or violent music, or violent movies, or alcohol, etc.) lead to more gun violence, by your reasoning, banning them will result in getting "progressively better."

In fact, it should be much more reasonable to ban video games than guns since you aren't implicating a constitutional right, nor are you taking away someone's ability to defend himself.

So again, I ask, would you support a ban on such things?

[HomoSapien]

HS, would you support a ban on violent video games? Violent movies? Violent lyrics in songs? Alcohol?

It can pretty easily be argued that all the above things can or do lead to more gun violence.

No. A video game cannot murder a person. A gun can.

So you don't believe in cultural influence, music, movies, nobody can be influenced?

Of course they can be an influence on the weakest of individuals.