OT: Grammar School Shooting in Connecticut

[GetBuLLish]

Cars kill people, randomly, without reason, drunks kill people, prescription drugs, its a dangerous world.

Ya but we can always try making it a safer world. That's the goal.

[CalilLove89]

In taking everyones arguements in to consideration, I do think there needs to be tighter gun control, I am not arguing that.

I do not think guns need to be banned.

I do think that our infrastructure in this country is falling apart, our healthcare is not available to mentally ill patients, most insurance does not cover therapy, there are a multitude of problems that are at fault with America, guns may be one of them, but to say that they are the only things at fault is laughable.

After most of these incidents you always hear the people being interviewed that they knew the guy was weird, he was in to weird stuff, he said creepy things, he stared at people. This happens over and over again, to me there are always warning signs that come before this kind of tragedy, our infrastructure is so poor right now that people are slipping through the cracks. That is the real problem, guns may be a problem, but a gun nut who is curious what its like to kill, does not shoot children, there are deeper things at work in that persons head.

[HomoSapien]

but to say that they are the only things at fault is laughable.

Don't think anyone is saying this.

There are a multitude of problems, you're right. Guns are just part of them.

[CalilLove89]

but to say that they are the only things at fault is laughable.

Don't think anyone is saying this.

There are a multitude of problems, you're right. Guns are just part of them.

and where is the threads around the internet about all the other failings that lead up to this point.

Guns are flashy, its a hot topic, its a 30 billion dollar industry in America, they also are an easy scapegoat.

[CalilLove89]

Cars kill people, randomly, without reason, drunks kill people, prescription drugs, its a dangerous world.

Ya but we can always try making it a safer world. That's the goal.

Honestly the Global trend is this is not a safer world, and is not headed there, countries are rioting, economies suck, overall its not good.

[kingkirk]

but to say that they are the only things at fault is laughable.

Don't think anyone is saying this.

There are a multitude of problems, you're right. Guns are just part of them.

and where is the threads around the internet about all the other failings that lead up to this point.

Guns are flashy, its a hot topic, its a 30 billion dollar industry in America, they also are an easy scapegoat.

They're a scapegoat, and will continue to be until the issue is addressed formally in government and some positive action comes from it, rather than events like this occurring every 6 months, in which we have the same discussions over and over.

[sleepyhead]

I said it in the Aurora Batman shooting thread we had here and I will say it again here: If media was banned from covering such events, in essence giving the shooter his 15 minutes of fame, then nobody would be repeating and committing such acts as often as they do now.

[CalilLove89]

That's going to happen sooner than you think, the ruling in Illinois has the potential to be petitioned all the way up to the united states supreme court, and if that happens they will have to rule if concealed carry is constitutional or not.

[CalilLove89]

I said it in the Aurora Batman shooting thread we had here and I will say it again here: If media was banned from covering such events, in essence giving the shooter his 15 minutes of fame, then nobody would be repeating and committing such acts as often as they do now.

Some media outlets will not run this story front page, they will also not publish the name of the gunman, unfortunately that is the minority of the media.

[kingkirk]

What's scarier, the raw number, or the fact that people have the urge to commit so many of these atrocities?

The gun culture and the way guns a revered in the US needs to be properly addressed, regardless of this incident or any mass shooting that have happened.

[CalilLove89]

What's scarier, the raw number, or the fact that people have the urge to commit so many of these atrocities?

The gun culture and the way guns a revered in the US needs to be properly addressed, regardless of this incident or any mass shooting that have happened.

There are issues with the numbers though, 67 percent of gun deaths are from suicide, and most anti gun establishments include that into their numbers, they also include justifiable shootings, and police actions.

What you are left with is still a large number of people who are killed, but there is always a person behind the trigger.

2.98 = homicide
5.75 = Suicide
0.27 = Accident

Per 100,000 people

chicago population is roughly 2.7-3 million people

That means if chicago was at the national average, they should have 243 murders with a gun a year. Last year I think they had around 325

But the shootings are rising, thankfully, around 80 percent of the people who are shot by handguns live.

This is the number of murders in Chicago

1990: 851
1991: 927
1992: 943
1993: 855
1994: 931
1995: 828
1996: 796
1997: 761
1998: 704
1999: 643
2000: 633
2001: 667
2002: 656
2003: 601
2004: 453
2005: 451
2006: 471
2007: 448
2008: 513
2009: 459
2010: 436
2011: 433
2012: 488(to date)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Chicago#Murders

[CalilLove89]

Nothing against Chicago, just some data, and a point of reference.

But gun crime is a large problem with gangs, and gangs are frequently in the population centers.

Another thing, people confuse shootings with murders, but honestly like I stated above, you have a good chance of living if shot with a handgun.

Although this is largely because people are shot with small calibers more frequently, due to the fact that they are inexpensive.

Historically the .22 has killed more people than any other round, and to give a point of reference you can buy a bb gun in .22

[chitownclown]

@calilove
So just because banning guns wouldn't solve every problem means that we shouldn't do it. 47% is a huge number. If a ban a guns would of saved at least one of those babies' lives than it would be worth it.

I can make up numbers to look at this one 2398842903, that was Australia, this is America, we have a different attitude and culture.

I view it as a problem that America is so reluctant to learn from the experience of other countries. This is a case of ignoring the very evidence you purport to desire as a precondition to tighter gun control.

I am not defending America, I am defending my family, I think there are more crazy people in America than other countries, thats why I own a gun, and choose not to live in a population center, I make choices every day that stack the odds in my favor, and If you think I am paranoid, events like today, and the recent natural disasters show what a thin veneer of a civilized society we live in.

If, as you say, there are ‘more crazy people in American than other countries’, then why are you so comfortable with mass gun ownership? I understand that you support some degree of gun ownership regulation, but you must believe that any such scheme won’t catch out all of these ‘crazy people’

And if that's the case, how could you possibly be advocating the right to own guns?

I agree.


It is very sad that these incidents are becoming less alarming as they continue to occur. Especially given that the vehicle for their occurrence can be controlled to an extent. Until we find the 'best' solution, we should look to the safest one. Making it more difficult for 'crazy people' to own guns is the safer option for now, going by the experience of other countries.

[mysticbb]

2.98 = homicide
5.75 = Suicide
0.27 = Accident

Per 100,000 people

About 320m people live in the U.S., that makes deaths by guns (according to your numbers):

ca. 9600 homicides
ca. 18400 suicides
ca. 900 accidents

Btw, in 2011 there were 3.37 homicides in the U.S. with handguns per 100,000, about 10728, the number in the figure! No suicides or people killed by police action were counted.

[CalilLove89]

I am not comfortable with the number of guns that are available, and that are out there, but what you have to realize is that It would be almost impossible logistically to get the guns off the street.

I own a gun because I use every avenue available to me to secure my loved ones.

I don't give a **** about the second amendment

I don't give a **** about any of that, except that I have a Human Right to defend myself, and a gun is an equalizer.

I own a lot of guns, and I do not support the NRA or the Second Ammendment Foundation.

I am a Democrat, and support tighter gun regulation, although not a ban.

I own a gun because America is a crazy place.

I have come to the realization that it would be impossible to remove all the guns, and probably even a majority of the guns from the USA, so if you cant beat them join them.

And I love shooting targets for fun.

[CalilLove89]

2.98 = homicide
5.75 = Suicide
0.27 = Accident

Per 100,000 people

About 320m people live in the U.S., that makes deaths by guns (according to your numbers):

ca. 9600 homicides
ca. 18400 suicides
ca. 900 accidents

Btw, in 2011 there were 3.37 homicides in the U.S. with handguns per 100,000, about 10728, the number in the figure! No suicides or people killed by police action were counted.

It very well could be, I know that some websites twist the numbers, thats all.

I just know that I have a better chance at defending my life or my loved ones life with a firearm than without.

[mysticbb]

I just know that I have a better chance at defending my life or my loved ones life with a firearm than without.

How many situations occured, in which you had to defend yourself with a firearm? Do you carry a gun around the clock? How do you defend yourself with a firearm, if it is locked up at your home?
It is a fallacy to think your safety would increase, because you own a gun. Is there any reliable data about that at all? No, there is not. You don't increase your chance of survival by owning a gun, if you live in one of the industrial countries.

[CalilLove89]

And if you want to know what is possible under obama's renewed clinton gun ban.

Clintons ban was 94-04

Previous largest school shooting occured under the ban, 1998

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_As ... eapons_Ban

Some more info on its effectiveness on crime, and criteria of banned guns.

Look at the murder rates of chicago under the ban, and look at them today, draw your own conclusions.

[CalilLove89]

I just know that I have a better chance at defending my life or my loved ones life with a firearm than without.

How many situations occured, in which you had to defend yourself with a firearm? Do you carry a gun around the clock? How do you defend yourself with a firearm, if it is locked up at your home?
It is a fallacy to think your safety would increase, because you own a gun. Is there any reliable data about that at all? No, there is not. You don't increase your chance of survival by owning a gun, if you live in one of the industrial countries.

I have also not commited a crime owning a gun, whats your point, If people want to know why I own guns that is why.

I like the whole it cant/wont happen to me arguement to, if it doesnt happen to anyone, where are these murder statistics coming from.

People defend themselves with guns every day, use google.

[mysticbb]

I have also not commited a crime owning a gun, whats your point

I suspect, you also don't plan to commit a crime. But that is beyond the point. The point is, the chances of you getting into a situation where you can really defend yourself with your gun are rather slim to non-existent.

I like the whole it cant/wont happen to me arguement to, if it doesnt happen to anyone, where are these murder statistics coming from.

The point is not that it doesn't happen, it happens. But it happens way less often than you think. And, the murdered didn't save their lifes with a gun.

People defend themselves with guns every day, use google.

I did not say that it doesn't happen, the question is how often AND are you really able to defend yourself with a gun, if such situation occurs? The only reasons to expect that it happens to you are that you are either a special target (criminal, police, etc.) or paranoid.