Bellinelli v Korver Redux

[kuly1990]

Which he may take since it's doubled and he might of found a home here... I don't see any team going beyond full MLE for him and Marco seems like a guy that would take a little less to stay here.

Hell, can't see a team going full MLE for him. 3-4M seems about right.

that would be great, Korver was payed 5 M so its more than fair price for Marco, although i also want to see more off him, mostly playoffs games, but he is better than i thought, i didnt liked the signing at first but now i think its great, but what about Bulls decision to not sign any long contracts, because of that "2014 plan"?

[Red Larrivee]

I hope your right but I fear that as a starter with decent numbers in the playoffs, the price may go up. I also think that the more he plays for Thibs, the less he will be looked at as a defensive liability which will up his value in the same way that Korver's did as well.

Yeah that's true too. He's having a good season, but numbers wise giving him the full MLE would seem like quite a bit. But there's been worse contracts given.

[Ctownbulls]

Honestly, this can't be answered until the playoffs. Regular season Korver was absolutely awesome. When defenses tighten-up and focus during the playoffs it was hard for him to get shots up even around great screens.

It is very close. The thing that scares me the most about the Bulls come playoff time is who is going to hit shots down the stretch besides D.Rose. If I had to pick between Korver and Marco to take a clutch shot then I would probably choose Korver.

[EastBayFJ]

^

I'd pick Nate

[Rerisen]

Korver wasn't 'shutdown' in the playoffs, he missed open shots. It's like one of those bad internet meme's just keeps coming back.

Right now I'd still take Kyle, better for the offense, better for Rose, and not much difference on defense. But we'll see how Marco does with Rose and/if when he gets the starting job once Rip is dealt.

[DuckIII]

This hasn't been worth discussing in over a month. Belli is significantly better. The real issue is getting Rip off the floor.

[Rerisen]

Better question, why in the heck did we never try starting Korver - over Bogans. He's currently starting for a team with a better winning % than we have, and they don't have Derrick Rose either. They are also 6th in defense, so can't be that. Also putting up near his career high in efficiency.

[musiqsoulchild]

Was always on the Belliwagon.

Folks thought I was being irrationally exuberant. Truth is Marco is multi-skilled. Korver is world class at 1 skill. We needed more folds in our offense.....Marco gives us that.

[musiqsoulchild]

Better question, why in the heck did we never try starting Korver - over Bogans. He's currently starting for a team with a better winning % than we have, and they don't have Derrick Rose either. Also putting up near his career high in efficiency.

Why do you think? What rational explanation could there be?

[Rerisen]

Better question, why in the heck did we never try starting Korver - over Bogans. He's currently starting for a team with a better winning % than we have, and they don't have Derrick Rose either. Also putting up near his career high in efficiency.

Why do you think? What rational explanation could there be?

That's not one of those weak appeal to authority responses right.

But why do I think, because defense first coach, and the team was winning games, which makes it hard to tinker with the lineup, even if the outcome might produce something better yet in the end.

Unfortunately, Bogans continued to be a drag in the playoffs, hurting us at the start of games, and despite Korver's failure to hit his usual amount of shots, the lineup with Korver still produced significantly better in the playoffs than the one with Bogans. That's because Korver has indirect benefits on the offense not matched by players who are less automatic when open.

It's like when we just played Miami the other day, we were willing to leave other shooters on rotations, but we never left Ray Allen, preferring to give someone like Battier open looks than it let it rotate to Ray. Korver drew the same kind of attention.

[the ultimates]

Better question, why in the heck did we never try starting Korver - over Bogans. He's currently starting for a team with a better winning % than we have, and they don't have Derrick Rose either. They are also 6th in defense, so can't be that. Also putting up near his career high in efficiency.

Bogans starting was always overblown because Korver and Brewer got more minutes than him and were out their in crunch time. Keith was on the Bill Cartwright plan and nothing was wrong with that. Korver is playing well because he is on a team with guards that can penetrate in Teague and Williams. We've seen the story of what happens when he can't get loose on screens or doesn't have someone to kick it out to him off penetration. The interesting thing is the per36 numbers for him and Belinelli are close with Kyle averaging 5 more minutes played this season.

[Rerisen]

Bogans starting wasn't overblown, because by starting he was guaranteed about 16-18 mpg, that he didn't deserve.

Kyle and Ronnie both had many nights, I would say the majority of nights, where they were better than Keith, and could have easily filled our entire SG rotation for those games.

The interesting thing is the per36 numbers for him and Belinelli are close with Kyle averaging 5 more minutes played this season.

Close, but with Korver leading in virtually every statistic. And handsomely in the most important one for their role, scoring efficiency. Not that interesting really since Beli is doing what he's always done career wise.

Biggest difference last few games, is Carlos Boozer showing up. Vs Orlando, Beli had 2 points, and vs Miami, he had 7 points on 3-8. Vs Charlotte he actually had a negative Game Score. But team success lifts all boats perception wise I guess, same thing happened with KeBo actually.

[credezcrew24]

Korver is probably the worst defender in the NBA

[musiqsoulchild]

Bogans starting wasn't overblown, because by starting he was guaranteed about 16-18 mpg, that he didn't deserve.

Kyle and Ronnie both had many nights, I would say the majority of nights, where they were better than Keith, and could have easily filled our entire SG rotation for those games.

The interesting thing is the per36 numbers for him and Belinelli are close with Kyle averaging 5 more minutes played this season.

Close, but with Korver leading in virtually every statistic. Not that interesting really since Beli is doing what he's always done career wise.

This is a rehash in the redux thread, but we'll go there.

If offense and defense are 2 levers, keeping Bogans in the starting lineup and Korver in the bench mob were the right choices in creating a team that had a spectacular floor balance.

[Rerisen]

If offense and defense are 2 levers, keeping Bogans in the starting lineup and Korver in the bench mob were the right choices in creating a team that had a spectacular floor balance.

Then why did the team with Korver and the exact same other 4 players vastly outscore their opponents both in regular season and playoffs, vs KeBo in there.

'Spectacular' floor balance was the dynasty Bulls not Thibs Bulls. Thibs Bulls, the starters lacked a secondary creator, and even one elite efficiency scorer (Miami had three), and the bench mob just lacked scoring altogether. Though their fantastic defense was more than enough vs most second units.

[musiqsoulchild]

If offense and defense are 2 levers, keeping Bogans in the starting lineup and Korver in the bench mob were the right choices in creating a team that had a spectacular floor balance.

Then why did the team with Korver and the exact same other 4 players vastly outscore their opponents both in regular season and playoffs, vs KeBo in there.

Are we talking 2012?

Korver and Boozer were both markedly improved on D in 2012. I am also interested in seeing what kind of minutes we are talking about when we compare relative merits of 5 man units.

[Rerisen]

2011, the only year Bogans was on the team. That he wasn't brought back despite being cheap made it pretty obvious what a band-aid he was that season.

20011 starters had 419 minutes with Bogans, 70 with Korver. and 144 with Gibson in too. Playoffs 251 with Bogans, 114 with Korver. And correction those last two were actually a wash performance wise. It was the Gibson+Korver one in the playoffs that did better. But says a lot that we were still as good with Kyle even missing shots.

Not that we need these specific data sets really, Korver has been a bigger impact player than Bogans his whole career, and continues to be this year.

[HomoSapien]

I really liked Korver. I was really against letting him go. I'm still opposed to the trade we made, because the trade was done out of cheapness and I hate what that represents.

That being said, it's pretty clear that Belinelli is the better player. Marco is the type of player this team has needed for a while.

I also, have to strongly disagree that it's a wash on defense.

[Indomitable]

I really liked Korver. I was really against letting him go. I'm still opposed to the trade we made, because the trade was done out of cheapness and I hate what that represents.

That being said, it's pretty clear that Belinelli is the better player. Marco is the type of player this team has needed for a while.

I also, have to strongly disagree that it's a wash on defense.

I agree with you.

[the ultimates]

Bogans starting wasn't overblown, because by starting he was guaranteed about 16-18 mpg, that he didn't deserve.

Kyle and Ronnie both had many nights, I would say the majority of nights, where they were better than Keith, and could have easily filled our entire SG rotation for those games.

The interesting thing is the per36 numbers for him and Belinelli are close with Kyle averaging 5 more minutes played this season.

Close, but with Korver leading in virtually every statistic. And handsomely in the most important one for their role, scoring efficiency. Not that interesting really since Beli is doing what he's always done career wise.

Biggest difference last few games, is Carlos Boozer showing up. Vs Orlando, Beli had 2 points, and vs Miami, he had 7 points on 3-8. Vs Charlotte he actually had a negative Game Score. But team success lifts all boats perception wise I guess, same thing happened with KeBo actually.

Ronnie couldn't make a jumper to save his life and provided no spacing because he didn't make three's. Good defensive teams defended Korver and took him away even when Derrick was on the floor. For the last two seasons the only team he shot well against in the playoffs was Indiana in round one two years ago. The biggest numbers that stand out are the shooting percentages between Marco and Korver with Kyle benefiting from penetration and kick. Marco hasn't had that despite Nate's ability to penetrate plus he has created for himself and others off pick and roll and actually initiated offensive sets. That's something Korver has never been able to do.