The Melo Thread Vol. V

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Continue the discussion here

[bullsnewdynasty]

Besides Rose, is there a player on that roster who could even score even say, 15 ppg in the playoffs?

You have to be looking at who is playing major minutes. You really think 3 rookies are going to get major rotation minutes?

If we are talking playoffs, then we seriously do not want to pair Rose and Melo. The two have been pretty much awful in the playoffs (50.3 and 51.3%ts). Who is going to make shots in the playoffs? Before someone comments about them doing it alone, the elite players of the past who played in the playoffs without another high level player were studs then too.

Given how you ignored my question, I guess I'll take it that you admit that nobody on the team other than Rose can score even 15 ppg. So I guess you are saying you have more faith in the Bulls' rookies eventually being efficient playoff scorers than Rose or Melo?

Your posts are really all over the place. On one hand you're saying Rose isn't an efficient playoff scorer but you're favoring a lineup that will require Rose to take about 25 shots in the playoffs next year. And you sport a sig that says rookies are hardly ever good and stars win. Kind of baffling if you ask me.

[The Kane]

Rose was just awful in many of the series he has played in. He hasn't handled those traps well. He took lots of dumb shots. Turned it over way too much. Etc.

Like I said, we have seen other elite players get forced to play as a lone star on a playoff team and deal with lots of doubles and traps. Few elite players have responded as poorly as Rose.

So if he's so terrible in the playoffs why would you want to build the team around him as the lone star again? If anything you should be hyped to get Melo.

[bledredwine]

^^^ Damn. But seconded on the above two posts. What's our plan for playoff success if not rose/Melo? That's what if like to hear? We're going to win it all with taj Noah being our two best players? And alongside DJ being our three best offensive players to other teams and actual contenders with Lebron, wade, George, Westbrook, KD, Parker, Griffin, CP, Harden, Dwight and crue? Please, find cases in history where starless teams win championships.

[coldfish]

Besides Rose, is there a player on that roster who could even score even say, 15 ppg in the playoffs?

You have to be looking at who is playing major minutes. You really think 3 rookies are going to get major rotation minutes?

If we are talking playoffs, then we seriously do not want to pair Rose and Melo. The two have been pretty much awful in the playoffs (50.3 and 51.3%ts). Who is going to make shots in the playoffs? Before someone comments about them doing it alone, the elite players of the past who played in the playoffs without another high level player were studs then too.

Given how you ignored my question, I guess I'll take it that you admit that nobody on the team other than Rose can score even 15 ppg. So I guess you are saying you have more faith in the Bulls' rookies eventually being efficient playoff scorers than Rose or Melo?

Your posts are really all over the place. On one hand you're saying Rose isn't an efficient playoff scorer but you're favoring a lineup that will require Rose to take about 25 shots in the playoffs next year. And you sport a sig that says rookies are hardly ever good and stars win. Kind of baffling if you ask me.

My posts are all over the place because I'm having like 8 different discussions with people all being hypocritical.

Rose and Melo WERE inefficient and poor in the past. With Rose, I chalk a lot of it up to him being young and some of it to him not being a tier 1 superstar. I do think he will improve on that, or would have had he stayed healthy. That being said, if Rose had played better than he did in 2011, then the Bulls would have won a title which blows up the idea that Rose can't win a title without another star next to him. The position that Rose will play better in the future but that a good deep team around Rose can't win a title is logically inconsistent. Pick a lane people.

Regardless, Rose and Melo really aren't Lebron and Michael. Some of my comparisons are to them and that's not entirely fair to Rose and Melo. However, if you want to be logically consistent, since Rose and Melo are not Lebron type players, they need MORE help around them than Lebron. People are being hypocritical on this. I'm acknowledging their talent level when I say that if you have Rose and Melo, you need a LOT of talent around them. If you disagree, then why have they played so poorly in the playoffs when alone? (unlike MJ and LBJ)

[bledredwine]

I think that it goes to show how much people tend to use efficiency to degrade great players... It's overboard. How efficient was Kobe? AI? Rose? And yet they were all excellent players who made it further than any hyper efficient 18 ppg scorer could. Why? They could create at will and make nearly half of their shots. Even Monta Ellis has been awesome this year (I said he would). We highly overrate assists/efficiency and highly underrate scoring. How many championships did Nash Stockton Paul win as number one option? They need the Malones, Kobe's even frickin Blake Griffins to score when needed. We desperately need a Melo. That much is apparent.

[musiqsoulchild]

Three things matter in playoff/champsionship basketball. There are other factors, but I would argue that they are largely irrelevant if the below 3 are available:

1) The ability to make an opponents shot more difficult ( people will score, but you can make them less efficient than the norm)
2) The ability to collect rebounds over similarly sized players ( also called hustle, effort, lunch pail...yada yada)
3) The ability to make a shot over extremely tight/stingy defenses ( ball movement, shot creation, iso scoring, easy shots....all come into this)

Melo helps us in one of the above 3 criterion and hurts us in two. With the net loss of Taj, we lose out even more on 1) and 2)

Wecan gain the scoring needed for playoff success in other ways: We have shown that for 2 seasons now.

Again, we dont need a scoring binge. We need to score about 3 to 4 baskets more per game than the opponent. These baskets need to be easier baskets to score.

Rose will give us 2 of them. The shooters around Rose will give us 1 more. The offensive rebounding will give us the final incremental easy basket.

All else being equalled out, thats a 6-0 win for us. The probability of this happening is MUCH higher if you retain the D and Rebounding.

If not, then the other team will start making up the differential on their superior rebounding and defense. Melo and Rose can give you 6 incremental points, but we lose 2 due to a drop in second chance points and the opponents gain 4 due to a loss in team defense.

[bledredwine]

If we are talking playoffs, then we seriously do not want to pair Rose and Melo. The two have been pretty much awful in the playoffs (50.3 and 51.3%ts). Who is going to make shots in the playoffs? Before someone comments about them doing it alone, the elite players of the past who played in the playoffs without another high level player were studs then too.

Given how you ignored my question, I guess I'll take it that you admit that nobody on the team other than Rose can score even 15 ppg. So I guess you are saying you have more faith in the Bulls' rookies eventually being efficient playoff scorers than Rose or Melo?

Your posts are really all over the place. On one hand you're saying Rose isn't an efficient playoff scorer but you're favoring a lineup that will require Rose to take about 25 shots in the playoffs next year. And you sport a sig that says rookies are hardly ever good and stars win. Kind of baffling if you ask me.

My posts are all over the place because I'm having like 8 different discussions with people all being hypocritical.

Rose and Melo WERE inefficient and poor in the past. With Rose, I chalk a lot of it up to him being young and some of it to him not being a tier 1 superstar. I do think he will improve on that, or would have had he stayed healthy. That being said, if Rose had played better than he did in 2011, then the Bulls would have won a title which blows up the idea that Rose can't win a title without another star next to him. The position that Rose will play better in the future but that a good deep team around Rose can't win a title is logically inconsistent. Pick a lane people.

Regardless, Rose and Melo really aren't Lebron and Michael. Some of my comparisons are to them and that's not entirely fair to Rose and Melo. However, if you want to be logically consistent, since Rose and Melo are not Lebron type players, they need MORE help around them than Lebron. People are being hypocritical on this. I'm acknowledging their talent level when I say that if you have Rose and Melo, you need a LOT of talent around them. If you disagree, then why have they played so poorly in the playoffs when alone? (unlike MJ and LBJ)

And how many championships did MJ and Lebron win as the only star? How about anyone sans Hakeem and Dirk who had a stacked roster? And what is your plan of winning a championship if not Melo/Rose? How would we match up better against the Heat with another scenario?

[League Circles]

^^^ Damn. But seconded on the above two posts. What's our plan for playoff success if not rose/Melo? That's what if like to hear? We're going to win it all with taj Noah being our two best players? And alongside DJ being our three best offensive players to other teams and actual contenders with Lebron, wade, George, Westbrook, KD, Parker, Griffin, CP, Harden, Dwight and crue? Please, find cases in history where starless teams win championships.

My plan for playoff success if we couldn't get Melo would look something like this:

Sign Mirotic for about 5 mil, Lance for about 9.5 mil, and DJ with the room MLE. Draft Rodney Hood and Montrezl Harrell. Sign Kirk, Richard Jefferson and Jermaine O'Neal for the vet minimum.

5: Noah, O'Neal, Harrell
4: Mirotic, Taj
3: Butler, Jefferson, Hood
2: Lance, Snell, Kirk
1: Rose, DJ

I think that team is a title contender in year one and only looks to get better going into the future with so many young players.

[BeatDaCavs420]

Still stand by that there is no way he is coming here

1.) Phil is commited to him and from what Melo says it looks like he believes in Phil and is very happy the knicks did this

2.) Money

3.) More Money

4.)Knicks are winning now

5.) Sas saying what he been saying just makes me doubt it more and I think he is just talking out of his ass (he also said he didnt think phil was going to take the job)

So yeah I don't see any chance of him coming here and I hope the Bulls FO is already deciding there next move

[coldfish]

Rose was just awful in many of the series he has played in. He hasn't handled those traps well. He took lots of dumb shots. Turned it over way too much. Etc.

Like I said, we have seen other elite players get forced to play as a lone star on a playoff team and deal with lots of doubles and traps. Few elite players have responded as poorly as Rose.

So if he's so terrible in the playoffs why would you want to build the team around him as the lone star again? If anything you should be hyped to get Melo.

See above.

I am hyped to get Melo . . via trade. I honestly don't think the Bulls really stand much of a chance of winning a title as is. Maybe if they do a great job in the draft or Mirotic is a superstud, but that's very unlikely. I also don't think Rose / Melo with capspace stands much of a chance. Maybe in year 2 and 3 but not much of one.

Trading for Melo with Boozer and picks creates a unique opportunity for the Bulls to have a legit 3 year run as a primary contender. I'm all for it. That's the type of "Gasol for Kwame" or "Ray Allen for Lafrentz" type deals that builds a title team. Anything less . . . people need to be realistic.

[coldfish]

And how many championships did MJ and Lebron win as the only star? How about anyone sans Hakeem and Dirk who had a stacked roster? And what is your plan of winning a championship if not Melo/Rose? How would we match up better against the Heat with another scenario?

Check out Lebron and MJ's stats in the playoffs before they got help. You replace Derrick Rose with a young MJ or Lebron and this team is working on its 4 peat right now. People drastically underrate how good this team is.

[Mech Engineer]

^^^ Damn. But seconded on the above two posts. What's our plan for playoff success if not rose/Melo? That's what if like to hear? We're going to win it all with taj Noah being our two best players? And alongside DJ being our three best offensive players to other teams and actual contenders with Lebron, wade, George, Westbrook, KD, Parker, Griffin, CP, Harden, Dwight and crue? Please, find cases in history where starless teams win championships.

How is Indiana winning without a second star? They have the best record in the league.

The biggest issue in this discussion is the fact of trying to build a Miami type team or a team competing against Miami. Both are irrelevant in a year or two.

What Indiana has right now is the best optimum model going forward. It doesn't mean the Bulls should not get Melo or get a second creator. That's the primary requirement but to get lost with beating Miami is the wrong approach in 2014-15. That would have been the correct approach in 2011.

[bledredwine]

And how many championships did MJ and Lebron win as the only star? How about anyone sans Hakeem and Dirk who had a stacked roster? And what is your plan of winning a championship if not Melo/Rose? How would we match up better against the Heat with another scenario?

Check out Lebron and MJ's stats in the playoffs before they got help. You replace Derrick Rose with a young MJ or Lebron and this team is working on its 4 peat right now. People drastically underrate how good this team is.

I beyond highly doubt that. Lebron needed 2 franchise players alongside to win it. Mj had Pippen. He couldn't even make it to the finals in CLE with the exception of that first time around and we saw him get dominated.

You really believe that Lebron needs Joakim Noah, Butler and Taj to beat the Spurs? No chance. Think about the offense. That's the key here.

He needed tons of offensive help from Allen and Bosh, otherwise he wouldn't even have won with Miami, who by the way have a way more well-rounded roster, thanks to the 3 stars + surrounding roll players. Wade put up 25 PPG in the finals against the Mavs that they lost.

Meanwhile, Dirk and Terry went lights out.

[bledredwine]

^^^ Damn. But seconded on the above two posts. What's our plan for playoff success if not rose/Melo? That's what if like to hear? We're going to win it all with taj Noah being our two best players? And alongside DJ being our three best offensive players to other teams and actual contenders with Lebron, wade, George, Westbrook, KD, Parker, Griffin, CP, Harden, Dwight and crue? Please, find cases in history where starless teams win championships.

How is Indiana winning without a second star? They have the best record in the league.

The biggest issue in this discussion is the fact of trying to build a Miami type team or a team competing against Miami. Both are irrelevant in a year or two.

What Indiana has right now is the best optimum model going forward. It doesn't mean the Bulls should not get Melo or get a second creator. That's the primary requirement but to get lost with beating Miami is the wrong approach in 2014-15. That would have been the correct approach in 2011.

At least they have a first star.

My point was Indiana's emergence of Paul George this year was the reason for such success. Would you disagree with that? And that our Rose emergence was a big reason why we had 1st seed twice? Do people forget how many 4th quarter comebacks he led us to? Even Doc Rivers has stated this.

And let's not lie.... Indiana is SIGNIFICANTLY more loaded than us, and significantly more deep. We're relying on rookies this season, Joakim to be a pointguard genius, DJ to save us and of course our coach who is the reason for 75 percent of our success.

Paul George was awesome and Indiana looked unstoppable. He started slumping and so did Indiana. There's a correlation. When you have a star, your team is just better.. much like 2011 Chicago with Rose. Take him off and we stand no chance. But when your star struggles, so do you since your team relies on him so much. Hence Indy now and us against Miami.

Well, Miami had no problem shutting off 100% of our offense aka Derrick Rose. So lets get someone else who can do that, shall we? Carmelo Anthony is one of 2 players who can equal Lebron's production head to head. Seems like a good choice.

[Dajody10]

You win with stars in the NBA, regardless if we're going up against Miami or Indiana.....anyone making the argument about Rose / Melo past playoff performance is futile, neither have EVER played with a secondary scoring star, thus it put them in a position to force the issue in order to stay in games against top competition.

LeBron James couldn't get his team over the top without a secondary star scorer (Cleveland playoff failures) and the same goes for Kobe. You need a second star scorer, it's really a very simple situation. Can the Bulls beat most teams without a second scoring star, assuming Rose is healthy, yes - but against the best of the best they need a guy like Melo otherwise they'll always be very good but not quite good enough.

Find a way to get Melo, plain and simple.

[bledredwine]

^^^

exactly.

Go to nba.com and take a look at the headlines.

Is it "Taj's 10, Joakim's defense, and Nazr Muhammed's hustle put Bulls up by 15"

Nope. "Griffin's 21 leads Clippers past Lamarcus-led Blazers"

Why?

Stars win championships. There has yet to be one exception.

[musiqsoulchild]

You win with stars in the NBA, regardless if we're going up against Miami or Indiana.....anyone making the argument about Rose / Melo past playoff performance is futile, neither have EVER played with a secondary scoring star, thus it put them in a position to force the issue in order to stay in games against top competition.

LeBron James couldn't get his team over the top without a secondary star scorer (Cleveland playoff failures) and the same goes for Kobe. You need a second star scorer, it's really a very simple situation. Can the Bulls beat most teams without a second scoring star, assuming Rose is healthy, yes - but against the best of the best they need a guy like Melo otherwise they'll always be very good but not quite good enough.

Find a way to get Melo, plain and simple.

I agree with everything about your post.

Where I disagree is the bolded part. I am not OK with any way to get Melo. The cost of acuiring Melo is as important to me as is the act of just acquiring him.

The two go hand in hand for me. And they should for everyone here, who wants the team to do better.

If the costs ( not financial only) of getting Melo > Benefits of getting Melo, then I dont want him.

Prove to me that you can change the direction of the above statement in a reasonable way that NYK will also be on board with and I will be totally OK with getting Melo.

Right now, I dont see that.

[bullsnewdynasty]

My posts are all over the place because I'm having like 8 different discussions with people all being hypocritical.

Rose and Melo WERE inefficient and poor in the past. With Rose, I chalk a lot of it up to him being young and some of it to him not being a tier 1 superstar. I do think he will improve on that, or would have had he stayed healthy. That being said, if Rose had played better than he did in 2011, then the Bulls would have won a title which blows up the idea that Rose can't win a title without another star next to him. The position that Rose will play better in the future but that a good deep team around Rose can't win a title is logically inconsistent. Pick a lane people.

a) A large part of Rose playing poorly was that he was the only offense and everyone knew it. To this day, nothing is different.

b) Your proposal to fix that problem is adding 3 rookies to the current team (who won't play that much) and an okay free agent. Speaking of, on net, will they even equal the loss of Augustin and Boozer's offensive production?

Regardless, Rose and Melo really aren't Lebron and Michael. Some of my comparisons are to them and that's not entirely fair to Rose and Melo. However, if you want to be logically consistent, since Rose and Melo are not Lebron type players, they need MORE help around them than Lebron. People are being hypocritical on this. I'm acknowledging their talent level when I say that if you have Rose and Melo, you need a LOT of talent around them. If you disagree, then why have they played so poorly in the playoffs when alone? (unlike MJ and LBJ)

So you need stars and depth? Okay, so you add depth later. It seems like you want to add depth now and then magically (?) acquire a star later. The Bulls have been trying that for the last 10 years with no success.

There's basically no situation where the Bulls are winning a title next year. In either route, you are going to have to wait for rookies to develop into starting caliber players or acquiring depth via exceptions.

[Mech Engineer]

^^^ Damn. But seconded on the above two posts. What's our plan for playoff success if not rose/Melo? That's what if like to hear? We're going to win it all with taj Noah being our two best players? And alongside DJ being our three best offensive players to other teams and actual contenders with Lebron, wade, George, Westbrook, KD, Parker, Griffin, CP, Harden, Dwight and crue? Please, find cases in history where starless teams win championships.

How is Indiana winning without a second star? They have the best record in the league.

The biggest issue in this discussion is the fact of trying to build a Miami type team or a team competing against Miami. Both are irrelevant in a year or two.

What Indiana has right now is the best optimum model going forward. It doesn't mean the Bulls should not get Melo or get a second creator. That's the primary requirement but to get lost with beating Miami is the wrong approach in 2014-15. That would have been the correct approach in 2011.

At least they have a first star.

My point was Indiana's emergence of Paul George this year was the reason for such success. Would you disagree with that? And that our Rose emergence was a big reason why we had 1st seed twice? Do people forget how many 4th quarter comebacks he led us to? Even Doc Rivers has stated this.

And let's not lie.... Indiana is SIGNIFICANTLY more loaded than us, and significantly more deep. We're relying on rookies this season, Joakim to be a pointguard genius, DJ to save us and of course our coach who is the reason for 75 percent of our success.

Paul George was awesome and Indiana looked unstoppable. He started slumping and so did Indiana. There's a correlation. When you have a star, your team is just better.. much like 2011 Chicago with Rose. Take him off and we stand no chance. But when your star struggles, so do you since your team relies on him so much. Hence Indy now and us against Miami.

Well, Miami had no problem shutting off 100% of our offense aka Derrick Rose. So lets get someone else who can do that, shall we? Carmelo Anthony is one of 2 players who can equal Lebron's production head to head. Seems like a good choice.

You are writing the same thing. I don't see the need for the Bulls to build a team to counter Lebron/Wade/Bosh in 2015