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In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades

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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#61 » by Mech Engineer » Sat Jul 5, 2014 12:02 am

The Bulls have to definitely improve at trading. For example, I heard on the radio that the Bulls have been exploring a Kevin Love trade for the last 2 years. Even Love has expressed interest in the Bulls in multiple ways.

But, if they cannot figure out a trade package or accumulate assets for a trade in 2 years, that means they lack a strategic vision for trade planning. It is definitely not something concrete or easy and it is dependent on luck. They need to have an idea of what the other team wants if you are talking to them for 2 years.

In this new CBA when the existing team can give an extra year or give more salary increases, the Bulls cannot depend on Free Agency as the only route. If you miss out in free agency, it hurts the team a lot more because you have lost a lot of assets getting that cap-space for the previous few years.

It is just like gambling in a casino. You either lose or you come out in style like Miami did.

The biggest problem with the Bulls is they haven't found an average playmaking SG/wing player for the last 4 years. They obviously haven't had the cap-space to sign a 10 million value free agent. This was the phase after 2010 when they had to pull off a trade.

They have failed to do that when they had a whole lot of assets even excluding the Asik non-trade justifications.

I don't know if it is GarPax or Reinsdorf who is responsible for this. If Reinsdorf is dictating that a non-contending team cannot keep redundant assets for future use/trade, then GarPax hands are tied(eg..Korver, Asik etc..).
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#62 » by Mark K » Sat Jul 5, 2014 12:19 am

HomoSapien wrote:We can offer a max contract, but our max contract is still quite a bit worse than what NY can offer.


Well, that's what the CBA is designed to do. How do we beat that?

I'm not suggesting this. I think the Bulls played this off-season well, but what we've learned from it is that ultimately most top flight free-agents won't leave their current teams via free-agency because they stand to have too much to lose. I think, if you want that type of talent, you need to acquire them via trade. It's too much to try and convince them to take less to join your team, and it's too risky to gut your roster in advance of meeting with them.

I shouldn't have included Lebron in the OP, and I think that's what confused people about what my point was. I mentioned him mostly because it showed a theme of how a lack of money has come into play here. Though I think it's absurd that he won't even meet with our team in the first place, due to not being able to offer the max.


Sure, but trying to acquire them via trade is more difficult. What teams are going to trade superstars?

Unless they're completely disgruntled, like the Love scenario, i am not sure if that is a more realistic avenue.

A lot of that is time, place and luck.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#63 » by BrooklynBulls » Sat Jul 5, 2014 12:21 am

DJHill wrote:
BrooklynBulls wrote:We are reactive and not proactive in regard to trading. We make trades when we have to get under the tax, dump a bad attitude, clear cap for free agency. These are all reactive trades and not trades based on seeing an undervalued veteran talent. The closest we've gotten to that is the Salmons and Miller trade in 09.


Was just about the mention the Salmons/Miller trade myself. We also got our starting, reigning DPOY Center in a trade but other than that I would have to agree with this post and really have nothing much else to add.


Let's be clear here: the Eddy Curry trade that netted Noah was reactive as well. We fleeced NY because Thomas was incompetent and didn't protect the picks properly.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#64 » by Rerisen » Sat Jul 5, 2014 12:43 am

HomoSapien wrote:[tweet]https://twitter.com/KCJHoop/status/484869828071530497[/tweet]

It's becoming increasingly clear that a lack of money is going to be key in acquiring Anthony.


We can have the money. All we have to do is prioritize LeBron friggin James and Carmelo Anthony above Taj Gibson.

But I guess we won't.

You can argue clearing max for Anthony - and if he wants Taj there himself well tough one - but LeBron James you would clear what's necessary for and still have a better landing spot than Miami.

At this point Wade is a bigger age/health risk than Derrick Rose honestly.

Wade simply cannot do it anymore be that 2nd option that's needed if he's making about 13m or above. They need to get redundancy in the role to help Wade. Derrick still has a very good shot to be that guy.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#65 » by NecessaryEvil » Sat Jul 5, 2014 12:48 am

BrooklynBulls wrote:We are reactive and not proactive in regard to trading. We make trades when we have to get under the tax, dump a bad attitude, clear cap for free agency. These are all reactive trades and not trades based on seeing an undervalued veteran talent. The closest we've gotten to that is the Salmons and Miller trade in 09.


Ouch

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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#66 » by BullRosed » Sat Jul 5, 2014 1:09 am

We are not good at making trades what's so ever.

If the lakers had loul deng a x2 all star they would of ripped someone off blind for him.

The Bulls? Trade him for almost nothing.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#67 » by GimmeDat » Sat Jul 5, 2014 1:11 am

Agree completely with BB in that we are reactive traders. so naturally, we're not gonna get great returns.

In general terms, I think it's the weakness of GarPax, so I agree with the sentiment, but it feels like a bit of a random time/example to bring it up.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#68 » by BullRosed » Sat Jul 5, 2014 1:12 am

NecessaryEvil wrote:
BrooklynBulls wrote:We are reactive and not proactive in regard to trading. We make trades when we have to get under the tax, dump a bad attitude, clear cap for free agency. These are all reactive trades and not trades based on seeing an undervalued veteran talent. The closest we've gotten to that is the Salmons and Miller trade in 09.


I agree we signed Ben Wallace and traded Tyson Chandler for PJ Brown and JR Smith and faster then JR can take a jump shot he was on the nuggets we seriously traded him for nothing.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#69 » by Wingy » Sat Jul 5, 2014 1:32 am

Mech Engineer wrote:I don't know if it is GarPax or Reinsdorf who is responsible for this. If Reinsdorf is dictating that a non-contending team cannot keep redundant assets for future use/trade, then GarPax hands are tied(eg..Korver, Asik etc..).


The latter. Think logically...GarPax are very good to great at drafting, acquiring picks, creating flexibility and getting incredible value off the FA scrap heap. Seems like they know a thing or two about basketball. Yet we are supposed to believe they are total boobs at trading to acquire ANY talent upgrade?

Forget Melo, Love, Lebron. With all the solid work they do, we're supposed to believe they can only pull off 1 trade to add established talent in their entire 11 year tenure?

Something doesn't add up. It's all about the Benjamins, Reiny.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#70 » by cbjackson7 » Sat Jul 5, 2014 3:16 am

Mech Engineer wrote:The Bulls have to definitely improve at trading. For example, I heard on the radio that the Bulls have been exploring a Kevin Love trade for the last 2 years. Even Love has expressed interest in the Bulls in multiple ways.

But, if they cannot figure out a trade package or accumulate assets for a trade in 2 years, that means they lack a strategic vision for trade planning. It is definitely not something concrete or easy and it is dependent on luck. They need to have an idea of what the other team wants if you are talking to them for 2 years.

In this new CBA when the existing team can give an extra year or give more salary increases, the Bulls cannot depend on Free Agency as the only route. If you miss out in free agency, it hurts the team a lot more because you have lost a lot of assets getting that cap-space for the previous few years.

It is just like gambling in a casino. You either lose or you come out in style like Miami did.

The biggest problem with the Bulls is they haven't found an average playmaking SG/wing player for the last 4 years. They obviously haven't had the cap-space to sign a 10 million value free agent. This was the phase after 2010 when they had to pull off a trade.

They have failed to do that when they had a whole lot of assets even excluding the Asik non-trade justifications.

I don't know if it is GarPax or Reinsdorf who is responsible for this. If Reinsdorf is dictating that a non-contending team cannot keep redundant assets for future use/trade, then GarPax hands are tied(eg..Korver, Asik etc..).



Or Minnesota hasnt wanted to trade him? Geezes people act like you can just pick any player of another team offer something to them and they have to accept it. What incentive up until recently has Minnesota had to trade Kevin Love? Premium talent is hard to find, why the hell would you trade it?
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#71 » by NecessaryEvil » Sat Jul 5, 2014 3:18 am

BullRosed wrote:We are not good at making trades what's so ever.

If the lakers had loul deng a x2 all star they would of ripped someone off blind for him.

The Bulls? Trade him for almost nothing.


LMAO

Great post

Truth

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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#72 » by DaeDae » Sat Jul 5, 2014 3:24 am

fleet wrote:I've long had the theory that The Chairman would rather eat rotton eggs than go after Lebron after the charade in 2010 where Lebron conned the Bulls. Some people just don't forget getting swindled. I admire him for keeping his pride intact. Don't give it up. Not for anybody.


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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#73 » by WesleyExChiFan » Sat Jul 5, 2014 3:25 am

sporadiclee wrote:It looks like I'm in the supreme minority here, but I agree with the OP, although I don't see the immediate connection to the Lebron situation.

Pax has done some good things in his tenure with the Bulls. He's proved to be a solid, if not spectacular, drafter. He is very adept at clearing cap space. He's done an exceptional job acquiring picks for players who need to be moved. But trading for talent isn't one of his strong suits.

Look a the list of trades involving players that Pax has made since he's been here:

2003-Traded Jalen Rose, Donyell Marshall and Lonny Baxter for Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams, and Chris Jefferies.
2003-Traded Roger Mason Jr for Rick Brunson
2004-Traded Jamal Crawford and Jerome Williams for Mutombo, Othello Harrington, Frank Williams and Cezary Trybanski
2004 Traded Mutombo for Mike Wilks, Eric Piatowski and Adrian Griffin
2005-Traded Antonio Davis and Eddy Curry for Mike Sweetney, Jermaine Jackson Tim Thomas and picks
2006-Traded #2 pick for #4 pick and Viktor Khryapa
2007-Traded Tyson Chandler for PJ Brown and JR Smith
2007-Traded JR Smith for Howard Eisley and picks (2nd round)
2007-Traded Eddie Basden for Martynas Andriuskevicius
2008-Traded Ben Wallace, Joe Smith and Adrian Griffin for Larry Hughes, Cedric Simmons, Drew Gooden and Shannon Brown
2009-Traded Drew Gooden, Andres Nocioni, Cedric Simmons and Michael Ruffin for John Salmons and Brad Miller
2009-Traded Larry Hughes for Jerome James, Tim Thomas and Anthony Roberson
2009-Traded Thabo Sefolosha for a pick
2010-Traded Aaron Gray for Devin Brown
2010-Traded Tyrus Thomas for Acie Law, Flip Murray and a pick
2010-Traded John Salmons for Joe Alexander and Hakim Warrick
2010-Traded Kirk Hinrich and a pick for a lower pick
2010-Traded picks for Carlos Boozer (S&T)
2010-Traded picks for CJ Watson
2012-Traded Kyle Korver for TPE
2014-Traded Luol Deng for Andrew Bynum (waived)
2014-Traded Marquis Teague for Tornike Shengelia
2014-Traded picks for Anthony Randolph and picks

The main impetus for the majority of these trades was cost-cutting, adding flexibility or dumping a player we no longer wanted. Rarely was a trade centered around the Bulls giving up assets to upgrade in talent. Sometimes the returns worked out (Antonio Davis, PJ Brown), but the Bulls were still the ones giving up the younger, more talented player(s). The exception is the Noc for Salmons and Miller trade, which upgraded the roster flexibility as well as the product on the floor. Otherwise, these trades are more about rebuilding than getting better in the short-term.

The problem with this pattern is that the Bulls are constantly acquiring assets to use in future moves to upgrade the roster. Yet when it comes time to consolidate those assets for an established player close to his prime, Pax hasn't been able to pull off the deal. The constant shuffling of deck chairs is why we always seem to be looking forward to some Summer of 2010/2014/etc plan. Eventually, you have push your chips into the center of the table and see what happens. Obviously, you don't do a deal just for the sake of doing a deal. But we've seen far too many assets depreciate here before they could be turned over into something of equal or greater value. Then it's back to diving into the free agency pool and overpaying for second-tier players.

None of this matters if Melo commits to Chicago. But if he doesn't, I agree that it's time to take a new approach.
seems like a lot of those trades got rid of bad apples.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#74 » by NecessaryEvil » Sat Jul 5, 2014 3:29 am

The problem with this pattern is that the Bulls are constantly acquiring assets to use in future moves to upgrade the roster. Yet when it comes time to consolidate those assets for an established player close to his prime, Pax hasn't been able to pull off the deal. The constant shuffling of deck chairs is why we always seem to be looking forward to some Summer of 2010/2014/etc plan. Eventually, you have push your chips into the center of the table and see what happens. Obviously, you don't do a deal just for the sake of doing a deal. But we've seen far too many assets depreciate here before they could be turned over into something of equal or greater value. Then it's back to diving into the free agency pool and overpaying for second-tier players.


Great post..

2006 as well..

2018 is next...I fear
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#75 » by coldfish » Sat Jul 5, 2014 3:32 am

I find it odd that this thread would be brought up now. Others have said that but what the Bulls would need to do to get capspace is to dump Taj.

The Bulls have proven over and over and over that they are good at dumping. They take dumps in new and innovative ways. They can dump for future capspace (Nocioni). They can dump for picks (Curry). They can even dump for immediate capspace using picks (Hinrich). They can dump for lux tax savings and tell you that they will reinvest the savings with a straight face (Deng). Basically, the Bulls have proven that they can give you whatever kind of dump you want at a moment's notice.

With that said, I agree with the undercurrent of Homo's thread. I have been salting it into threads but the Bulls have to give up on flexibility. Stop making trades to remove salary obligations. Start doing the hard work of identifying and acquiring talent. Find hidden gems and get them. Make trades that improve the team now, not that downgrade the team now with only a thin hope of upgrading it later.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#76 » by DaeDae » Sat Jul 5, 2014 3:36 am

DJHill wrote:
BrooklynBulls wrote:We are reactive and not proactive in regard to trading. We make trades when we have to get under the tax, dump a bad attitude, clear cap for free agency. These are all reactive trades and not trades based on seeing an undervalued veteran talent. The closest we've gotten to that is the Salmons and Miller trade in 09.


Was just about the mention the Salmons/Miller trade myself. We also got our starting, reigning DPOY Center in a trade but other than that I would have to agree with this post and really have nothing much else to add.


We traded for a draft pick and got lucky when joakim Noah a) didn't come out the year before, and b) fell to us in the draft. Had the kings taken him instead of Spencer hawes, the disingenuous point you tried to make just now would be moot. We did not trade for joakim Noah. We traded for a late lottery draft pick and got very VERY lucky that he was available when we picked.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#77 » by Dajody10 » Sat Jul 5, 2014 3:40 am

When you overvalue your players, it makes it very hard to make moves for established players.

Boozer, Butler, Gibson, rights to Mirotic and picks for Love, Martin and Brewer. Fair trade for both sides, assuming Minny still feels the need to move Love.

Rose, Martin, Brewer, Love and Noah with Hinrich, Snell, Dunleavy, McDemott and Smith coming off the bench.

Gotta be willing to trade our good assets for established stars and needs. The above does exactly that, period.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#78 » by TheSuzerain » Sat Jul 5, 2014 3:43 am

GarPax suck at selling high.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#79 » by fleet » Sat Jul 5, 2014 3:59 am

DaeDae wrote:
fleet wrote:I've long had the theory that The Chairman would rather eat rotton eggs than go after Lebron after the charade in 2010 where Lebron conned the Bulls. Some people just don't forget getting swindled. I admire him for keeping his pride intact. Don't give it up. Not for anybody.


Is this a serious post? I need to know before I decide how to respond.

Deadly serious. Serious like a heart attack. Serious as Ben N Jerry's Chunky Monkey.
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Re: In Today's NBA, You Need to be able to Make Trades 

Post#80 » by AhUtopian » Sat Jul 5, 2014 4:00 am

I partially agree with homo bcz via trading for pkayers,we can obtain more counted salaries in our roster,for ex. if we just sign pgasol,we have to go under the cap,and are incapable using mle/bae,but if we can take him from s&t,we can keep above the cap(and provide higher salary for him to choose us),then using mle and bae,to maximize our talent.

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