Have The Bulls Improved Enough To Come Out Of The East? Poll

[Rerisen]

The GB is not a place one goes for intelligent basketball discussions. Their opinion is null and void.

We're not being homers. Not the large majority of us, anyway.

I'll be surprised if many analysts in the media are not picking the Bulls come the start of the season.

To win the NBA championship? I doubt it. Maybe the East, but that is a much different prediction. Very possible the top 3 teams in the league could be in the West. Could reasonably argue more.

[Shill]

Exactly so objective opinion is extremely out of whack with Bulls fans. Do you think 72% of the GB thinks the Bulls are the favorite? Are we turning into Knicks fans here?

If we have the 4th best odds, we're as legitimate of a contender as anyone. I don't see how 72% on a BULLS message board is absurd. Considering NBA pundits, former coaches, and executives (e.g. George Karl) are picking us to come out of the East, how can you say the optimism is unfounded?

That doesn't mean he will be handed a starting spot. I hope he can earn it at some point and I hope Thibs will actually give it to him if he does.

It doesn't mean he will be handed the spot, but based on all of the evidence, it merits discussion. Besides, 2/3 of the board DOESN'T think he will start.

Boozer played because of his 15m contract, and the team was trying to move him for 2 years and keep his profile lifted. Probably also fears he would mentally give up if benched. Basically, he was hopeless. McDermott is not hopeless, is a rookie and hard worker and Thibs is going to make sure he teaches him the right habits.

My point was there were extenuating circumstances to Boozer playing. Dunleavy is not a defensive stalwart. I don't think his one year in the system gives him a strangle-hold on the job.

[Shill]

I don't have as much faith in Taj offensively as you do.

TS% tells me he scores with middling efficiency. I don't think TS% is the be-all end-all, but my eyes tell me the same thing.

Maybe Rose would give him a little bit more of an efficiency bump, but he already takes plenty of wide-open jumpers, and makes them at a mediocre clip.

I'm more interested in team performance and impact than individual efficiency ratings. Taj plays with high energy, helps us get more stops which turn into easy offense, crashes the off boards, and lots of intangible positives.

For whatever reason the team is consistently better with him on the floor for 2 years running. Meanwhile Gasol has to turn around a negative, as his team was worse on both sides of the floor with him last year.

I know people have a million reasons for this. He wasn't trying (wow sounds great), his coach used him wrong, etc, but none of them inspire great confidence.

Modeling an offense around "energy" doesn't inspire great confidence in me, either.

Spurs and Thunder were hot after Gasol, too, so perhaps their front offices saw mitigating factors for the decline in numbers.

[Rerisen]

If we have the 4th best odds, we're as legitimate of a contender as anyone. I don't see how 72% on a BULLS message board is absurd. Considering NBA pundits, former coaches, and executives (e.g. George Karl) are picking us to come out of the East, how can you say the optimism is unfounded?

I'd say we are 'a' contender but not as legitimate as anyone. Certainly not as legit as the Spurs atm.

I think the Cleveland odds are also out of whack, but vegas might be expecting/anticipating a Kevin Love trade, and I expect those to come down if that doesn't happen.

My point was there were extenuating circumstances to Boozer playing. Dunleavy is not a defensive stalwart. I don't think his one year in the system gives him a strangle-hold on the job.

I would hope that most would understand that requirements are a little different on a rookie coming in than ~10 year vets whose defensive level has already been accepted by the team and staff before they came here.

Korver was a poor defender coming here, but did eventually improve under Thibs tutelage and certainly got better as he learned how he was supposed to react and where he was supposed to be. This takes time. He even admitted this himself how he struggled to learn Thibs system after running much different ones for his previous coaches. If you look at the new faces on the roster each year, which is easy thanks to high turnover lately, Thibs usually takes a while to start trusting the newer players. By the AS break or whatever, they seem to start integrating and playing much better.

[kingkirk]

To win the NBA championship? I doubt it. Maybe the East, but that is a much different prediction. Very possible the top 3 teams in the league could be in the West. Could reasonably argue more.

I was referring to winning the East.

I don't get this impression that Bulls fans, or at least the Bulls fan on RealGM are overly confident.

In fact, let's reread this thread, or any other damn thread on this board for that matter (i am pointing at the Kirk resiging thread specifically).

It's mostly glass half empty type stuff. If anything, this board is full of masochists that are only truly happy through misery.

[Rerisen]

Modeling an offense around "energy" doesn't inspire great confidence in me, either.

Spurs and Thunder were hot after Gasol, too, so perhaps their front offices saw mitigating factors for the decline in numbers.

Well the numbers say he is still a plus player, even if declining, that means he is going to help a team, but we are arguing relative improvement here over an already strong position and vs other much weaker ones.

What his deal looks like in year 2 and 3 as he hits 35 and 36, vs a younger signing, is also worth thinking about.

[Rerisen]

I was referring to winning the East.

I don't get this impression that Bulls fans, or at least the Bulls fan on RealGM are overly confident.

In fact, let's reread this thread, or any other damn thread on this board for that matter (i am pointing at the Kirk resiging thread specifically).

It's mostly glass half empty type stuff. If anything, this board is full of masochists that are only truly happy through misery.

The poll thread disagrees with your view. Now if you debate with the same few opposite viewpoints all the time might paint a different perspective, but most seem extremely confident, not just about the East either.

[Shill]

I'd say we are 'a' contender but not as legitimate as anyone. Certainly not as legit as the Spurs atm.

I think the Cleveland odds are also out of whack, but vegas might be expecting/anticipating a Kevin Love trade, and I expect those to come down.

Point is it's not asinine for 72% of Bulls fans to think we can win the title with the caveat of our star player returning to MVP form. I bet you would find a similar split on any top 5 contending team.

I would hope that most would understand that requirements are a little different on a rookie coming in than ~10 year vets whose defensive level has already been accepted by the team and staff before they came here.

Korver was a poor defender coming here, but did eventually improve under Thibs tutelage and certainly got better as he learned how he was supposed to react and where he was supposed to be. This takes time. He even admitted this himself how he struggled to learn Thibs system after running much different ones for his previous coaches. If you look at the new faces on the roster each year, which is easy thanks to high turnover lately, Thibs usually takes a while to start trusting the newer players. By the AS break or whatever, they seem to start integrating and playing much better.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I think the circumstances are rare enough for McDermott to start as a rookie. Even if he doesn't start, he's going to be playing AT LEAST 20-24 minutes. I think starting Dougie balances out the lineup. If he comes off the bench, that's almost too much youth on the floor at once.

[Rerisen]

Modeling an offense around "energy" doesn't inspire great confidence in me, either.

I never said model the offense around him.

And it really doesn't matter if he was a pure net neutral there (though he's been positive), as his impact on defense is so massive, that it overcomes even positive offensive players unless they are way way ahead of him. The last two years, Gasol has not been so.

[MalikJoakim24]

The GB is not a place one goes for intelligent basketball discussions. Their opinion is null and void.

We're not being homers. Not the large majority of us, anyway.

I'll be surprised if many analysts in the media are not picking the Bulls come the start of the season.

To win the NBA championship? I doubt it. Maybe the East, but that is a much different prediction. Very possible the top 3 teams in the league could be in the West. Could reasonably argue more.

obviously one of those 3 teams are the spurs, but who are the other two teams in the west?

[Shill]

Modeling an offense around "energy" doesn't inspire great confidence in me, either.

I never said model the offense around him.

And it really doesn't matter if he was a pure net neutral there (though he's been positive), as his impact on defense is so massive, that it overcomes even positive offensive players unless they are way way ahead of him. The last two years, Gasol has not been so.

I just think a lineup of:

Noah
Taj
Butler
Lance
Rose

is way too limited offensively.

I like what we have now better.

[NecessaryEvil]

Post scoring - Gasol / Gibson
Wing scoring - McDermott / Dunleavy
Guard scoring - Rose / Brooks

Overall, I think we're ok. Maybe a move away from being elite but definitely ready to get back to the ECF (which indeed would be a fail season)

[Rerisen]

Point is it's not asinine for 72% of Bulls fans to think we can win the title with the caveat of our star player returning to MVP form. I bet you would find a similar split on any top 5 contending team.

Maybe its normal for this time of year, I happen to think this forum is one of the least homeristic generally speaking. Certainly during the year when our warts are more present due to the reality nature of seeing them in losses.

I'm not usually a big offseason poster though so maybe I'm immune to the ritualistic chest thumping that is a natural pat of this time of year.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I think the circumstances are rare enough for McDermott to start as a rookie. Even if he doesn't start, he's going to be playing AT LEAST 20-24 minutes. I think starting Dougie balances out the lineup. If he comes off the bench, that's almost too much youth on the floor at once.

What are those circumstances though? To me the circumstances would have to be that Doug *proves* he has on ball talents that Dunleavy doesn't have that can immediately solve that hole in our team in a sure way. I really doubt he's going to be able to show that much just in the short time of preseason.

As for his minutes, your prediction isn't far off mine. I think I had him at 18 in my predicted rotation. And I'm actually afraid he will prove worthy of starting during the year, and Thibs actually won't do it.

[Rerisen]

I just think a lineup of:

Noah
Taj
Butler
Lance
Rose

is way too limited offensively.

I like what we have now better.

The great thing about that lineup is Lance is a two way player that upgrades us on both sides of the ball and could work in numerous units with our weak defense shooters like McDermott and Dunleavy, and even help Mirotic stay on the floor. Now to build units with those guys we have to keep Butler on the floor (or Thibs almost surely will) and if he has another year struggling to shoot/score it really tamps down the lethality of those units.

While with Gasol, he may bring more offense than Taj, but it's a tradeoff, and we could lose defense in equal or even greater proportion to put him in. This presents a problem late in playoff games when you are trying to match up with elite 2 way units and don't want to concede either end.

[kingkirk]

The poll thread disagrees with your view. Now if you debate with the same few opposite viewpoints all the time might paint a different perspective, but most seem extremely confident, not just about the East either.

Are we really going to use a sample size of 151 votes on a Bulls board to suggest that 'Bulls fans' hold the view that we're shoe in should Rose be healthy to win a title as a basis that 'Bulls fans' are being overzealous and drinking too much kool-aid?

[NecessaryEvil]

I just think a lineup of:

Noah
Taj
Butler
Lance
Rose

is way too limited offensively.

I like what we have now better.

The great thing about that lineup is Lance is a two way player that upgrades us on both sides of the ball and could work in numerous units with our weak defense shooters like McDermott and Dunleavy, and even help Mirotic stay on the floor. Now to build units with those guys we have to keep Butler on the floor (or Thibs almost surely will) and if he has another year struggling to shoot/score it really tamps down the lethality of those units.

While with Gasol, he may bring more offense than Taj, but it's a tradeoff, and we could lose defense in equal or even greater proportion to put him in. This presents a problem late in playoff games when you are trying to match up with elite 2 way units and don't want to concede either end.

That would of been a great unit. With McDermott & Mirotic coming, we would of had ample time to develop both without Gasol. Although I am all for Gasol, I see the advantage of that move as well.

[Rerisen]

The GB is not a place one goes for intelligent basketball discussions. Their opinion is null and void.

We're not being homers. Not the large majority of us, anyway.

I'll be surprised if many analysts in the media are not picking the Bulls come the start of the season.

To win the NBA championship? I doubt it. Maybe the East, but that is a much different prediction. Very possible the top 3 teams in the league could be in the West. Could reasonably argue more.

obviously one of those 3 teams are the spurs, but who are the other two teams in the west?

Thunder I'd have ahead of any East team and I think Clippers have as strong a case as the Cavs or Bulls.

Once the year begins, records may not reflect the true strength of teams due to conference disparity. It will be easy to rack up wins in this soft conference.

[Rerisen]

The poll thread disagrees with your view. Now if you debate with the same few opposite viewpoints all the time might paint a different perspective, but most seem extremely confident, not just about the East either.

Are we really going to use a sample size of 151 votes on a Bulls board to suggest that 'Bulls fans' hold the view that we're shoe in should Rose be healthy to win a title as a basis that 'Bulls fans' are being overzealous and drinking too much kool-aid?

Ok, Bulls fans 'on this board' if we must be so literal. That's the sphere of influence that is relevant to our discussions anyway.

[Shill]

Point is it's not asinine for 72% of Bulls fans to think we can win the title with the caveat of our star player returning to MVP form. I bet you would find a similar split on any top 5 contending team.

Maybe its normal for this time of year, I happen to think this forum is one of the least homeristic generally speaking. Certainly during the year when our warts are more present due to the reality nature of seeing them in losses.

I'm not usually a big offseason poster though so maybe I'm immune to the ritualistic chest thumping that is a natural pat of this time of year.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I think the circumstances are rare enough for McDermott to start as a rookie. Even if he doesn't start, he's going to be playing AT LEAST 20-24 minutes. I think starting Dougie balances out the lineup. If he comes off the bench, that's almost too much youth on the floor at once.

What are those circumstances though? To me the circumstances would have to be that Doug *proves* he has on ball talents that Dunleavy doesn't have that can immediately solve that hole in our team in a sure way. I really doubt he's going to be able to show that much just in the short time of preseason.

As for his minutes, your prediction isn't far off mine. I think I had him at 18 in my predicted rotation. And I'm actually afraid he will prove worthy of starting during the year, and Thibs actually won't do it.

The circumstances:

1. Experienced 4-year college player
2. Great work ethic
3. Son of a coach
4. Practiced under Thibs for Team USA
5. Will practice under Thibs again for Team USA
6. A need in the lineup for elite shooting
7. No stalwart incumbent ahead of him
8. He was the guy Thibs wanted


I just don't know how much more Dunleavy gives us. Now if MDJ were a lockdown defender, you could make the argument Thibs would want to establish the tone defensively in the starting unit.

MDJ is not that guy, especially at 34. He was brought in to be a backup for a reason.





Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[AKfanatic]

I was referring to winning the East.

I don't get this impression that Bulls fans, or at least the Bulls fan on RealGM are overly confident.

In fact, let's reread this thread, or any other damn thread on this board for that matter (i am pointing at the Kirk resiging thread specifically).

It's mostly glass half empty type stuff. If anything, this board is full of masochists that are only truly happy through misery.

The poll thread disagrees with your view. Now if you debate with the same few opposite viewpoints all the time might paint a different perspective, but most seem extremely confident, not just about the East either.

It's ashame voting in a poll doesn't require some sort of explanation for ones selection. I'd take that poll and many others on any teams board with a Everest sized grain of salt. How many people voted championship more out of hopes and wishes than actual confidence in the team achieving that? Hard to be that confident when your superstars last on court performance was way below all-star level.

That said, if this team gels, has health, and is firing on all cylinders going into the playoffs, no amount of success should be a surprise.

Bulls fans have been pointing out weaknesses every season. Shooting to spread the floor for Rose was always at the top, or near the top of the list. Boozers poor play was pretty high on the list also. A secondary "creator" was also on the list. The Bulls addressed some of those weaknesses this off-season, had they been lucky, they'd of addressed all weaknesses while somehow also solving world hunger with each made basket (Big Macs for everyone!). In the end, they've built a team we as fans should feel upbeat about, at least until the season starts.

Hopefully as the season progresses our rookies show to indeed be dead-eye shooters, Butler takes a step back toward season two Jimmy, Snell builds upon summer league, Rose stays healthy and comes out swinging, and our DPOY - sixth man runner up - and Gasol prove to be formidable. It's a lot of what ifs, but none of it is any less of a given than a "Kevin Martin" putting us over the top.

We've got what looks to be a potentially potent team on both ends of the court. Do our championship aspirations hinge on how effective Rose is? Hell yeah, he's our superstar...but he's far from without enough help.