Who is our 3rd best player?

[DannyNoonan1221]

I amazed that there are people who think taj is a better asset then Noah.

To this point in his career the guy hasn't even played 75% of his total minutes against the other team's first unit. It wasn't til this past season that Taj started getting serious minutes (long stretches- the entire 4th quarter) against the other teams best line up on a consistent basis.

And people think he is a better 3rd option than Noah? The guy who carried us through Rose's injuries?

Maybe I am crazy but it sure sounds like people are underestimating the value a guy like Noah has on the team after what we've been through the last 3 years

well:

1. They are both plus defenders but neiter is the second coming of mutumbo or Ben Wallace.
2. Noah makes around 12 million and is due for a large raise in about a year. Taj makes about 8 million and is signed for longer at that price.
3. Taj can spead a defense to 18 feet. Noah can not really spread a defense beyond 4 feet..c'mon be hoenst here.
4. At the Center position, For the next few years even if at the end his prime and barring injuries we have another and Top 3ish C...and offensively perhaps still the #1 C in the game. So value is reletive...I think Gasol makes Noah significantly more tradeable...and Mirotic may do just the same for Taj.

I really like both of these guys...they are true blue collar workers of the NBA and being a chicago guy how can i not love that? But the way of the championship before MJ and now after MJ has been by having super skilled big men. Lebron won a couple in between but even he himself is practically a 4 and had Bosh a top 3 offensively skilled 4/5 tweener. So you need offensively skilled players at 4-5 to win it all...the perkin's and haslems, play very limited roles on championship teams in lieu of the significantly more skilled players...Gasol, Mirotic, and Taj appear to be out most offensively skilled guys going forward, and bearstow has a nice touch to 18 feet and a certain toughness about him as well. So we shall see...but we do have depth at those positions now with skilled guys getting ready to go.

I agree with a lot of what you say, mostly in the last paragraph. I think taj spreads the floor 18 feet in the left corner/baseline, a little bit the same in the right corner and thats it. But in today's NBA, you want a guy who can shoot threes spacing the ball in either of those two directions. Noah spreads the floor 15 feet straight out (free throw line) with his passing and ability to get some steam and drive- which in the case of rose is more valuable as it gets the defending center out of the lane in a place difficult to recover and help- where as taj brings a 4 to corner side but keeps him in much better angles for help line defense.

I still don't see how taj makes up for noah's leadership in any way. Without Noah, both Rose-less seasons go to waste, the way most people expected it to and were surprised it didn't. I am not saying Noah did it alone, but without him and Thibs there to keep everyone focused, DJ/Nate's play would have been two guys playing for contracts rather than two guys resurrecting their careers in the playoffs.

Noah has a history of being injured, which makes me hesitant- as well as my belief that he is at his peak and I question how long he will hold. But the same could be said about Taj- he will be 30 in a year, peaked as a back up and may be getting his chance too late now with Mirotic and Gasol around.

I do not want to seem like i am in disbelief to the point that I won't listen. I understand the hype with Taj, but a lot of people hold him high like he is 26. He's not. It just seems like people are forgetting how much of Taj's impact has come during time against second units. He still has to prove himself as a starter before he can be compared/rated higher than Noah.

[Concept Coop]

He still has to prove himself as a starter before he can be compared/rated higher than Noah.

He plays a different position than Noah. The fact that we are having this conversation is what makes Noah so special; he's a much "smaller" player in a long body. He can switch out on 3 and force a pass, and is long enough to recover and alter shots.

Also, comparing Taj's offense to Noah's isn't fair measure. Compare Taj's standing within his position to Noah's standing within his.

[GetBuLLish]

I agree looking at the top three of any team can be a good foundation point, it can also be incredibly misleading as it would be for the Bulls and the...ugh have to say it...the Spurs.

The Spurs have an excellent big 3 though, not best in the league, but one that would suggest a top 3rd team right off the bat. They might be 3 HOFs one day. Though right now, they have much more of a 'big 4'. So I don't think it would be very misleading about them. They were a serious contender even a couple of years back before the rise of Kawhi.

You could reasonably argue that if all the Spurs players played on the Bulls, the Bulls top 5 players would be: Rose, Parker, Kawahi, Manu, and Duncan.

[LaRue]

Noah truly has no business being any part of any one big 3 unless you are talking about the big 3 of perrenial one and done possibly a second round exit team.

?

Noah was a decent offensive center last year considering the assists, an excellent rebounder, and a defender. Plenty of title teams have had nobody better as a #3.

Let's look at Bulls '93 vs Phoenix '93. For Chicago, it was Horace and for Phoenix, the #3 was KJ. Jo looks fine there. Or two years later. I don't even know who Houston's #3 player was. Kenny Smith? Otis Thorpe? Sam Cassell? For Orlando, it was Horace or Nick Anderson.

That said, Jo hasn't had a good playoff run in a long time, so if you are talking playoff performance vs. regular season, I could see that argument.

This is certainly a big part of it...his game does not translate into play off success. Defenses just lay off of him and we play 4 on 5. Then when they do lay off of him, he cant "go to work." He just does NOT have a 2nd gear in his offensive repetoire.

The 2013 Nets are in complete agreement with your argument.

[2015nbachamps]

?

Noah was a decent offensive center last year considering the assists, an excellent rebounder, and a defender. Plenty of title teams have had nobody better as a #3.

Let's look at Bulls '93 vs Phoenix '93. For Chicago, it was Horace and for Phoenix, the #3 was KJ. Jo looks fine there. Or two years later. I don't even know who Houston's #3 player was. Kenny Smith? Otis Thorpe? Sam Cassell? For Orlando, it was Horace or Nick Anderson.

That said, Jo hasn't had a good playoff run in a long time, so if you are talking playoff performance vs. regular season, I could see that argument.

This is certainly a big part of it...his game does not translate into play off success. Defenses just lay off of him and we play 4 on 5. Then when they do lay off of him, he cant "go to work." He just does NOT have a 2nd gear in his offensive repetoire.

The 2013 Nets are in complete agreement with your argument.

good point...thats the only time ive seen that though...and the nets were ripe for that given Nate played like MJ on offense that series and their C suffered an injury but your point remains valid...great series for Noah.

But that's just the point...that was a double n triple overtime 7 game series...swap out Gasol for Noah that year...as well as a pure shooter/scorer in mcderm and we sweep that team as we should...with a guy like Noah being a top 3 player for us...it kind of keeps opposing teams in a series they should not be in...classic case last year..Noah was exposed as a fraud by nene...nene punked him...flat out punked him. and Nene is just your typical willy 10-12 year vet. When Nene exposed Naoh like that it allowed the entire team to feast on us as if we were a bottom feeder.

A player with Noah's skills has a place on any team...last year he served as the best player for sure...we over achieved with that team, won 48 games and got pretty much swept and our butts handed to us in the process.

But a team that wants to win a championship? A guy like noah is just your energizer bunny playing 20-26 mpg...perhaps starting perhaps off the bench. he should be your 4th-6th best player...anything higher and your team just isnt talented enough anything lower and he is underutilized. I'm sorry, the dude just has 2 left feet and 2 left hands when it comes to quality (offensive) NBA footwork and and shooting...and he is not a lob machine either. His offense game is really really weak.

[GetBuLLish]

The 2013 Nets are in complete agreement with your argument.

11.4 points on 45%FG, 10 reb, 2.3 asst, 1.9 TO

Not that good. He then followed up with this against the Heat:

9.8 points on 41%FG, 9.2 reb, 2.4 asst, 2.0 TO

Noah's playoff history for the past 4 years has left much to be desired, to say the least.

[2015nbachamps]

The 2013 Nets are in complete agreement with your argument.

11.4 points on 45%FG, 10 reb, 2.3 asst, 1.9 TO

Not that good. He then followed up with this against the Heat:

9.8 points on 41%FG, 9.2 reb, 2.4 asst, 2.0 TO

Noah's playoff history for the past 4 years has left much to be desired, to say the least.

well you are both right..stats were not impressive at all. but Noah did have some end of game moments in that series that helped won a game if not 2.

[2015nbachamps]

I amazed that there are people who think taj is a better asset then Noah.

To this point in his career the guy hasn't even played 75% of his total minutes against the other team's first unit. It wasn't til this past season that Taj started getting serious minutes (long stretches- the entire 4th quarter) against the other teams best line up on a consistent basis.

And people think he is a better 3rd option than Noah? The guy who carried us through Rose's injuries?

Maybe I am crazy but it sure sounds like people are underestimating the value a guy like Noah has on the team after what we've been through the last 3 years

well:

1. They are both plus defenders but neiter is the second coming of mutumbo or Ben Wallace.
2. Noah makes around 12 million and is due for a large raise in about a year. Taj makes about 8 million and is signed for longer at that price.
3. Taj can spead a defense to 18 feet. Noah can not really spread a defense beyond 4 feet..c'mon be hoenst here.
4. At the Center position, For the next few years even if at the end his prime and barring injuries we have another and Top 3ish C...and offensively perhaps still the #1 C in the game. So value is reletive...I think Gasol makes Noah significantly more tradeable...and Mirotic may do just the same for Taj.

I really like both of these guys...they are true blue collar workers of the NBA and being a chicago guy how can i not love that? But the way of the championship before MJ and now after MJ has been by having super skilled big men. Lebron won a couple in between but even he himself is practically a 4 and had Bosh a top 3 offensively skilled 4/5 tweener. So you need offensively skilled players at 4-5 to win it all...the perkin's and haslems, play very limited roles on championship teams in lieu of the significantly more skilled players...Gasol, Mirotic, and Taj appear to be out most offensively skilled guys going forward, and bearstow has a nice touch to 18 feet and a certain toughness about him as well. So we shall see...but we do have depth at those positions now with skilled guys getting ready to go.

I agree with a lot of what you say, mostly in the last paragraph. I think taj spreads the floor 18 feet in the left corner/baseline, a little bit the same in the right corner and thats it. But in today's NBA, you want a guy who can shoot threes spacing the ball in either of those two directions. Noah spreads the floor 15 feet straight out (free throw line) with his passing and ability to get some steam and drive- which in the case of rose is more valuable as it gets the defending center out of the lane in a place difficult to recover and help- where as taj brings a 4 to corner side but keeps him in much better angles for help line defense.

I still don't see how taj makes up for noah's leadership in any way. Without Noah, both Rose-less seasons go to waste, the way most people expected it to and were surprised it didn't. I am not saying Noah did it alone, but without him and Thibs there to keep everyone focused, DJ/Nate's play would have been two guys playing for contracts rather than two guys resurrecting their careers in the playoffs.

Noah has a history of being injured, which makes me hesitant- as well as my belief that he is at his peak and I question how long he will hold. But the same could be said about Taj- he will be 30 in a year, peaked as a back up and may be getting his chance too late now with Mirotic and Gasol around.

I do not want to seem like i am in disbelief to the point that I won't listen. I understand the hype with Taj, but a lot of people hold him high like he is 26. He's not. It just seems like people are forgetting how much of Taj's impact has come during time against second units. He still has to prove himself as a starter before he can be compared/rated higher than Noah.

i pretty much agree with you...Im not a Taj lover nor a Noah lover...both guys have holes in their game...big holes. Gasol is a much better all around player than both...and Gasol will be better than both both this year and next perhaps the year after as well...so long as he plays within the schemes and the schemes cover up his weaknesses on defense which are no where near the level Noah has weaknesses on offense.

Either or Both Noah and Taj can go in a consolation trade as far as Im concerned...to Minny for Love for example. I look at both as kind of defensive specialists. and this team has either been filled with role players or defensive specialists for far too long. We only need one big man defensive specialist and one wing (jimmy).

Ideally we got defensive specialists that can also shoot or score in the post. Historically if you look at the spurs speicalists...they all could do something on offense...Diaw can both shoot and can score in the post. Bowen was a 41-42% 3 point shooter during their title years. Steven Jackson shot the ball well from 3. Tiago splitter can catch the ball and put in the hoop within 4 feet. the Bulls need their specalists to also be able to shoot or score from with 5 feet. We either need to be able to teach guys like Mcderm and mirotic how to play solid NBA calibre positional defense or we need to find guys that can but can also keep the opposing defense honest.

[SensiBull]

I think the fact that Joakim, a player with too limited a shooting range to play any more than about 15 feet from the basket, tops, is the main facilitator of scored baskets, and I mean this as an asset, not a liability is an underestimated factor.

I don't know what percentage of those assists are 3-pointers, but, it has to help that he's so often getting the ball to people within such close range to the bucket, garnering higher percentage shots for the player he's dishing to.

Aside from his obvious hustle in terms of offensive rebounds and blocked shots, I think his contribution to our offense is under-rated.

No way Taj does more than that. We're selling Noah short.

[johnnyvann840]

Neato stat of the night...

Last season FG% from 16<3pt

Pau Gasol .366%

Joakim Noah .409%


"Oh, but they never shoot from there", you say.

.. try again. Jo took about 2 shots per game from there and Pau about the same. 186 and 159. They both shot more from there than from 10<16ft. Interesting how perception can be so different than reality. Just because Jo's shot is ugly you think he would be less accurate from outside of 15ft than Pau, but he wasn't.

**Doesn't matter though, cause Dantoni made him take and miss all those shots

[johnnyvann840]

i pretty much agree with you...Im not a Taj lover nor a Noah lover...both guys have holes in their game...big holes. Gasol is a much better all around player than both...and Gasol will be better than both both this year and next perhaps the year after as well...so long as he plays within the schemes and the schemes cover up his weaknesses on defense which are no where near the level Noah has weaknesses on offense.

Either or Both Noah and Taj can go in a consolation trade as far as Im concerned...to Minny for Love for example. I look at both as kind of defensive specialists. and this team has either been filled with role players or defensive specialists for far too long. We only need one big man defensive specialist and one wing (jimmy).

There is so much wrong with this I'm not even gonna try. Not sure if this is just flat out trolling, or WTF is even going on here anymore.

[kingkirk]

Either or Both Noah and Taj can go in a consolation trade as far as Im concerned...to Minny for Love for example. I look at both as kind of defensive specialists. and this team has either been filled with role players or defensive specialists for far too long. We only need one big man defensive specialist and one wing (jimmy).

Joakim Noah, Taj Gibson & Jimmy Butler are certainly not defensive specialists.

That's not even remotely true.

[League Circles]

Either or Both Noah and Taj can go in a consolation trade as far as Im concerned...to Minny for Love for example. I look at both as kind of defensive specialists. and this team has either been filled with role players or defensive specialists for far too long. We only need one big man defensive specialist and one wing (jimmy).

Joakim Noah, Taj Gibson & Jimmy Butler are certainly not defensive specialists.

That's not even remotely true.

I think it's very fair to say that as of now Jimmy is a defensive specialist. He shoots at a low volume, with low efficiency, and has few tangible offensive skills. I mean, if he's not a defensive specialist, who is among wings?

[dougthonus]

I still can't get a handle on your values based on just this. Help me, which would you say is more true:

1. Noah is drastically overrated around the league (As 1st All Team NBA and DPOY)
2. Taj Gibson is drastically underrated, Noah is great, but Taj is just as great and people don't realize it.
3. Some middle ground combination of the above two.

I'm not so far from #3 here. I don't think Noah's a significantly better player than Taj on the team as it will be constructed this year. The biggest strengths he has on Taj will be minimized this season. I think they're comparable defenders. Noah's great but Taj is also great. I think Noah as an NBA first team guy was more about the story than anything else.

I certainly like Noah more than Taj overall, but I don't think the gap is the gap is nearly as wide as you'd make it look by throwing out awards. When you think NBA 1st team you think of a guy who's a top 5 guy in the NBA, Noah's not a top 5 guy, he's not a top 10 guy, he might not be a top 20 guy.

[transplant]

1. Rose (100%)
2. Noah
3. ????

If I had to answer this right now based on last year, even for players not on our team, I would say Taj Gibson. Some might (rather lazily imo) say Gasol just based on name recognition and historical performance, but its a dangerous assumption until we actually see him on our team and bouncing back on *both* sides of the floor. Right now that is just hopeful wishes though till its proven.

Agree with that last part so I'm going to wait until the season is well under way before offering my opinion.

And if Taj is our 3rd best player, seems a little odd that we are for so casually trading him for possible wing options that may not be definite proven solutions. It seems to me you wouldn't trade such an important player unless you absolutely got a player back that fills a big hole no questions asked.

OK...agree.

Then a bigger question, is a team with Taj Gibson as its 3rd best player, or even a 34 year old declining Gasol if you chose him, really a team that immediately strikes you as a worthy championship contender?

Disagree that this is a bigger question than the preceding question. In fact, it's microscopic by comparison. In any case, I didn't know that the determining factor for contender-worthiness is the relative quality of the 3rd-best player on the team.

[Hangtime84]

3rd best player Taj Gibson

Potentially to be Gasol or McDermott.

Dark Horses: Bulter and Snell

Happy Wish: Mirotic

[Stratmaster]

If Mirotic and Hypodermott are lesser players than Taj Gibson the Bulls are in trouble for a long time...particularly McDrain.

You expect them to be better as rookies though?

If they are, both will be competing with each other for ROY. Seems on the real high side of expectations.

Because Taj is a 16 PER player with elite defense, that's no chopped liver.

Well, you know how much stock I put in PER, and we have differing opinions on Taj's overall value; however, your point is well taken. I took the question literally, and I believe they are both better basketball players.

My view of Taj is that he is not a starter in a perfect world, and for his position I rate him A- on defense (with Noaf, for example, being an A), C+ in rebounding and C- on offense. That doesn't make me right and I don't want to start another debate on that, it is just my view. If I had to rate the other two based on my expectations (because obviously, we can't be sure yet) I would probably say C on defense, C on rebounding and A- in offense. I believe with Thibs and the Bulls schemes the defense can be offset easier than the offense.

In the context of who will have a bigger impact this season, I think McDermott has a chance to because he will get enough minutes to have an opportunity. Mirotic is more of a wildcard depending on how minutes are allocated, if injuries to others give him more minutes, etc.

So my tiers would be

Rose

Noah

Gasol (slightly above the next tier)

Hypodermott/Mirotic/Taj

Butler/MDJ/Hinrich

Everyone else.

[DannyNoonan1221]

He still has to prove himself as a starter before he can be compared/rated higher than Noah.

He plays a different position than Noah. The fact that we are having this conversation is what makes Noah so special; he's a much "smaller" player in a long body. He can switch out on 3 and force a pass, and is long enough to recover and alter shots.

Also, comparing Taj's offense to Noah's isn't fair measure. Compare Taj's standing within his position to Noah's standing within his.

I don't care how you compare them- within their own positions, against each other... either way, i don't see how taj comes out on top. The only way Taj wins any comparison is if you filter it down to two things- Contract and PPG. Unfortunately for him, there is a lot more to the game.

[RedBulls23]

The 2013 Nets are in complete agreement with your argument.

11.4 points on 45%FG, 10 reb, 2.3 asst, 1.9 TO

Not that good. He then followed up with this against the Heat:

9.8 points on 41%FG, 9.2 reb, 2.4 asst, 2.0 TO

Noah's playoff history for the past 4 years has left much to be desired, to say the least.

All its proven is that Noah can't be your 1st or 2nd most dependable player. Which because of injuries, he was resorted to that and had to take on more offensive load than he should be.

Just let him concentrate on rebounding, defense and hustle. And making the right offensive play.

And he's limped into the post season the past two years himself. One thing is for certain, he should not play more than 30 mins a game. I think that's when he's his freshest.

[mj234eva]

Neato stat of the night...

Last season FG% from 16<3pt

Pau Gasol .366%

Joakim Noah .409%


"Oh, but they never shoot from there", you say.

.. try again. Jo took about 2 shots per game from there and Pau about the same. 186 and 159. They both shot more from there than from 10<16ft. Interesting how perception can be so different than reality. Just because Jo's shot is ugly you think he would be less accurate from outside of 15ft than Pau, but he wasn't.

**Doesn't matter though, cause Dantoni made him take and miss all those shots

Jo:

Last two seasons combined, he's 26/46 (56.5%) from 20-24 feet (he attempted 2 3s, which I didn't count). Small sample size, all things considered.

Pau: