USA-Serbia Sunday Sept 14 at 2pm (CDT) on ESPN2 (FINALS)

[coldfish]

Speculation based on comments and observation: Rose really hasn't been working that hard.

I think that the people around Rose fear injury the most. I think that has limited the amount of maximum effort practice that Rose has done over the past two years but particularly after the second one. I think they underestimate just how hard one has to work in order to be one of the best in the world.

As a result, Rose looked more out of shape than anyone else. That's inexcusable as NBA level trainers are able to train you to play basketball if you put in the effort. His timing was off completely too, which is more evidence that he hasn't done much full speed work.

Basically, I think Rose has been working out. Lifting weights, shooting, etc. but has probably limited the severity of it due to injury concerns and as such, isn't ready for high level basketball. His best work was early in the camp when he was completely fresh (its easy to look good in the first 200 yards of a marathon).

I think that FIBA was great in this regard. It gave him a good visual of where he is. Not only does it put him 10 games or so further ahead than he would have been, but it:
- Gives him confidence that he can play without a major injury
- Gives him an opportunity to ratchet up his workout routine for the next few weeks

Rose is not done. Rose just needs to put in a lot of work.

My concerns are:
- Another injury
- Like Chris Paul, it may take him more than a season to get back what he lost as far as touch, feel and timing.

[BullsFTW]

It'll take time for him to get his rhythm back, but he can become the MVP Rose we love.

It seems as if he was holding back the whole tournament. Sure he struggled shooting, but I felt he could have been more aggressive. Part of me thinks he is being cautious. I think he decided to play the role of defender/distributor and not the lethal scorer we know he can be.

I can't blame anyone for being pessimistic, because it will take a lot of time and patience to see Rose perform to an elite level. I predict that after the All-Star break is when he will find his rhythm again. The next coming months he will continue to struggle, but he will get better. Right now, I'm just glad he's healthy, to me, that's the best results of all.

[TheGameChanger]

Derrick always looks awful playing with other superstars. I'll judge him when he plays in the pre seasons games with Jo,Pau,Jimmy,Doug,Nik,Dunleavy

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Really?

yes

Wrong. Never underestimate Rose's inner drive and will to dominate. He has some Jordan in him and this was nothing more then playing on his injured knees to begin the comeback process. The best is yet to come with Rose only a matter of time.

I didn't know people still said stuff like that. Interesting.

[NDave79]

I gotta ask again...

By when do you expect Rose to be CLEARLY better than Kyrie?

When the season starts? By January?

never again

10/31/2014

[Keller61]

Will the Bears outscore Rose tonight?

[MAQ]

Speculation based on comments and observation: Rose really hasn't been working that hard.

I think that the people around Rose fear injury the most. I think that has limited the amount of maximum effort practice that Rose has done over the past two years but particularly after the second one. I think they underestimate just how hard one has to work in order to be one of the best in the world.

As a result, Rose looked more out of shape than anyone else. That's inexcusable as NBA level trainers are able to train you to play basketball if you put in the effort. His timing was off completely too, which is more evidence that he hasn't done much full speed work.

Basically, I think Rose has been working out. Lifting weights, shooting, etc. but has probably limited the severity of it due to injury concerns and as such, isn't ready for high level basketball. His best work was early in the camp when he was completely fresh (its easy to look good in the first 200 yards of a marathon).

I think that FIBA was great in this regard. It gave him a good visual of where he is. Not only does it put him 10 games or so further ahead than he would have been, but it:
- Gives him confidence that he can play without a major injury
- Gives him an opportunity to ratchet up his workout routine for the next few weeks

Rose is not done. Rose just needs to put in a lot of work.

My concerns are:
- Another injury
- Like Chris Paul, it may take him more than a season to get back what he lost as far as touch, feel and timing.

I think not heading out to LA for 2 of the last 3 offseasons has set him back further than we estimated it would. He didn't look nearly this out of shape during the preseason/regular season last year when he played, although he wasn't at 100 percent basketball shape. And I think that's because he did have those workouts in LA with Love and Durant.

[kulaz3000]

[kingkirk]

Maybe it's just the light hitting his head but Thibs looks noticeably greyer in the hair.

Maybe Kate Upton digs the older look?

[kulaz3000]

Maybe it's just the light hitting his head but Thibs looks noticeably greyer in the hair.

Maybe Kate Upton digs the older look?

I noticed that too. I just think he has just let himself be grey and stopped dying his hair.

[ManualRam]

Really?

yes

Wrong. Never underestimate Rose's inner drive and will to dominate. He has some Jordan in him and this was nothing more then playing on his injured knees to begin the comeback process. The best is yet to come with Rose only a matter of time.

whatever inner drive you think derrick has i think kyrie has too.
but on top of that, kyrie's skill level is off the charts good. imo, it's something that i dont think derrick is capable of matching. you look at his core skills and he has everything. his ball skills and shooting ability are phenomenal. his handle is top notch and he's a natural shooter from every level of the floor. whereas derrick's handle is as it always was. he's also had 2 years of pretty much just shooting practice and he still can't settle on a form, still shooting flat lasers with little touch.

you look at kyrie's advanced skills and he's ahead in those areas too. shot-creation, creativity, change of pace, PnR ability, touch plays, etc. team-wise, the things that were missing from last yr's team: coaching, vets, experience, etc are there now. the cavs are no longer the youngest team in the league, depending on 1-3 yr players as their core with a terrible coach.

i've said this since i first laid eyes on kyrie in HS that he was bound to be the best PG in the league and i stand by that. when cp3 is done, i believe the mantle will be passed to kyrie. love derrick, but i think kyrie's the more complete, more skilled player with a better feel, pace, creativity to his game with less holes.

[kingkirk]

I certainly agree with Ram that Irving has more natural skill, but it remains to be seen if he can put it all together to become the best PG in the league.

Being more skilled doesn't mean he will be the better or more effective player, though. Time will tell.

He regressed in 13-14 imo, despite having a very promising opening 2 seasons.

Like Derrick though, injuries may be an issue for him at some point given how many games he has missed in his young career to date.

[ManualRam]

I certainly agree with Ram that Irving has more natural skill, but it remains to be seen if he can put it all together to become the best PG in the league.

Being more skilled doesn't mean he will be the better or more effective player, though. Time will tell.

He regressed in 13-14 imo, despite having a very promising opening 2 seasons.

Like Derrick though, injuries may be an issue for him at some point given how many games he has missed in his young career to date.

injuries are a concern but he's never suffered anything major. he also has the type of game to not take as big of a step back post-injury because he is not nearly as reliant on his athleticism. skill for skill he's already among the tops in the league imo.

[kingkirk]

injuries are a concern but he's never suffered anything major. he also has the type of game to not take as big of a step back post-injury because he is not nearly as reliant on his athleticism. skill for skill he's already among the tops in the league imo.

From a skill perspective, i completely agree with you. The guy is a freak. Be it his shooting touch and all round offensive repertoire or his ball handling abilities, he has all that you love to see from your PG.

Mentally though, does he have it?

I really rated Kyrie after 12-13, but i think he handled 13-14 quite poorly in terms of his decision making on the floor.

Perhaps that was more to do with the culture, but i didn't like the rising sense of entitlement.

[lilojmayo]

yes

Wrong. Never underestimate Rose's inner drive and will to dominate. He has some Jordan in him and this was nothing more then playing on his injured knees to begin the comeback process. The best is yet to come with Rose only a matter of time.

whatever inner drive you think derrick has i think kyrie has too.
but on top of that, kyrie's skill level is off the charts good. imo, it's something that i dont think derrick is capable of matching. you look at his core skills and he has everything. his ball skills and shooting ability are phenomenal. his handle is top notch and he's a natural shooter from every level of the floor. whereas derrick's handle is as it always was. he's also had 2 years of pretty much just shooting practice and he still can't settle on a form, still shooting flat lasers with little touch.

you look at kyrie's advanced skills and he's ahead in those areas too. shot-creation, creativity, change of pace, PnR ability, touch plays, etc. team-wise, the things that were missing from last yr's team: coaching, vets, experience, etc are there now. the cavs are no longer the youngest team in the league, depending on 1-3 yr players as their core with a terrible coach.

i've said this since i first laid eyes on kyrie in HS that he was bound to be the best PG in the league and i stand by that. when cp3 is done, i believe the mantle will be passed to kyrie. love derrick, but i think kyrie's the more complete, more skilled player with a better feel, pace, creativity to his game with less holes.

Derrick Rose was the best PG in NBA in his 2011 season. Also, Stephen Curry is just as skilled as Kyrie

[ManualRam]

injuries are a concern but he's never suffered anything major. he also has the type of game to not take as big of a step back post-injury because he is not nearly as reliant on his athleticism. skill for skill he's already among the tops in the league imo.

From a skill perspective, i completely agree with you. The guy is a freak. Be it his shooting touch and all round offensive repertoire or his ball handling abilities, he has all that you love to see from your PG.

Mentally though, does he have it?

I really rated Kyrie after 12-13, but i think he handled 13-14 quite poorly in terms of his decision making on the floor.

Perhaps that was more to do with the culture, but i didn't like the rising sense of entitlement.

as i mentioned, he was expected to lead a super young team, who's core players were 1-3 yrs in the league and varejao who's in and out of the lineup, that was poorly coached with a poor system. mike brown is an abomination of a coach. a player's coach and a cheerleader is not the type of coach that a young team (or any team ftm) needs. they've since addressed those issues. even if what he accomplished was overseas, i have MUCH more respect for blatt's coaching ability and ability to establish a culture.
the instincts, skill and talent are all there for kyrie to be special. i think this team usa experience will be a great boon for his progression as a player.

[GimmeDat]

My two cents, I think Blatt is going to be an awesome coach, I'm thoroughly impressed by him and I think it will have a major contribution to the success of this Cavs team.

Also, I think on top of Kyrie's obvious talents, I think playing with LeBron is going to be massive for him as well, and if he learns to successfully play off of him I think Kyrie is going to be scary good.

[ManualRam]

Wrong. Never underestimate Rose's inner drive and will to dominate. He has some Jordan in him and this was nothing more then playing on his injured knees to begin the comeback process. The best is yet to come with Rose only a matter of time.

whatever inner drive you think derrick has i think kyrie has too.
but on top of that, kyrie's skill level is off the charts good. imo, it's something that i dont think derrick is capable of matching. you look at his core skills and he has everything. his ball skills and shooting ability are phenomenal. his handle is top notch and he's a natural shooter from every level of the floor. whereas derrick's handle is as it always was. he's also had 2 years of pretty much just shooting practice and he still can't settle on a form, still shooting flat lasers with little touch.

you look at kyrie's advanced skills and he's ahead in those areas too. shot-creation, creativity, change of pace, PnR ability, touch plays, etc. team-wise, the things that were missing from last yr's team: coaching, vets, experience, etc are there now. the cavs are no longer the youngest team in the league, depending on 1-3 yr players as their core with a terrible coach.

i've said this since i first laid eyes on kyrie in HS that he was bound to be the best PG in the league and i stand by that. when cp3 is done, i believe the mantle will be passed to kyrie. love derrick, but i think kyrie's the more complete, more skilled player with a better feel, pace, creativity to his game with less holes.

Derrick Rose was the best PG in NBA in his 2011 season. Also, Stephen Curry is just as skilled as Kyrie

cp3 has been consistently excellent and is the standard as far as i'm concerned.
also, i think what separates kyrie from steph from a potential standpoint is physical tools and ease of which kyrie can get to the basket. kyrie is much more of a threat to get to the basket which makes him more of a threat from all levels of the floor. i also think steph is sloppier and weaker with the ball. he can be pressured, played tight when he has the ball and flustered because of his lack of strength and his average ability to separate with his quickness. defenders cannot pressure or play kyrie close with the ball in his hands because his handle is immaculate and his quickness is better. neither are good defenders, but i at least think kyrie has the foot speed to stay with opposing guards at a more competent level. even in FIBA competition, curry was constantly picking up cheap "handsy" fouls because he lacked the quickness and strength to stay with non-NBA guards. i think he'll always have to be hidden defensively.

[DanTown8587]

I have no questions about Kyrie's skill level, the ONLY thing I wonder about with him is can he be the leader of a team. I think he more than anyone else in the league can benefit from the off the court stuff LeBron can teach about playing the game.

[suckfish]

Speculation based on comments and observation: Rose really hasn't been working that hard.

I think that the people around Rose fear injury the most. I think that has limited the amount of maximum effort practice that Rose has done over the past two years but particularly after the second one. I think they underestimate just how hard one has to work in order to be one of the best in the world.

As a result, Rose looked more out of shape than anyone else. That's inexcusable as NBA level trainers are able to train you to play basketball if you put in the effort. His timing was off completely too, which is more evidence that he hasn't done much full speed work.

Basically, I think Rose has been working out. Lifting weights, shooting, etc. but has probably limited the severity of it due to injury concerns and as such, isn't ready for high level basketball. His best work was early in the camp when he was completely fresh (its easy to look good in the first 200 yards of a marathon).

I think that FIBA was great in this regard. It gave him a good visual of where he is. Not only does it put him 10 games or so further ahead than he would have been, but it:
- Gives him confidence that he can play without a major injury
- Gives him an opportunity to ratchet up his workout routine for the next few weeks

Rose is not done. Rose just needs to put in a lot of work.

My concerns are:
- Another injury
- Like Chris Paul, it may take him more than a season to get back what he lost as far as touch, feel and timing.

I disagree with this because I think Rose has been working hard. I just think it's really really difficult to miss two seasons and get back to being one of the NBA's elite guards. I also think it's harder for Rose to regain his touch and skill because he isn't as naturally skilled as a lot of other guards. He's had to work his ass off to become a respectable shooter and he has never had amazing court vision or passing skill to impact the game off pure instinct. At the college level Rose was pretty much an elite athlete who could handle the ball and get to the basket. Once he got into the league he refined his jumpshot and other basketball skills/techniques and really found a groove as a pro. So I truly believe it's going to take Rose longer purely because he had to put so much work in to build his skill level up, unlike like many other great guards who were probably more refined skill wise by the time they were graduating school/in college.

I also think the team USA experience is making things harder to gauge. Rose has had a history of playing garbage in the all star setting because he defers too much and thinks it's okay to just jog past half court, pass it off, and stand and watch. It's like he relaxes too much and thinks he doesn't have to be aggressive and step up.

The latter is pretty much why I wasn't really all that keen on him playing. I think he would have been better off at Bulls summer camp.