ESPN NBA Player Rankings

[kingkirk]

Yeah. You and Dice should consider actually watching him play.. maybe youtube a couple of his games from last year because apparently neither of you know what kind of season he just had. Be honest - how many Raptors games did you watch? He led a historically bad squad to the 4 seed and had the definition of breakout season. He also got the best of Joe Johnson while Noah got his as served by Nene in the playoffs

How many games did you actually watch of the Raptors?

On what planet was that Raptors team of last season a historically bad squad?

That is a laughable statement.

You're asking people to not be biased and be objective in this thread, but then you come up with these zingers.

Please.

[johnnyvann840]

Dragic, Wall, Howard, Cousins, Demar, Kyrie, LMA, Melo, Curry, are all better players off the top of my head. That's 20.

None of these guys are better players than Noah. Noah was DPOY. He was a triple double threat every night. Dwight Howard is not a better player anymore. Cousins is just too stupid. LMA and Portland, without Lillard, were and are CRAP. He takes up a lot of possessions and is not efficient for a big. Not sure what Kyrie has done in the NBA to even rank him in the the top 30. Melo? Ha. Wall? Really? I like Derozan but can't rank ahead of Jo. So many people only see one side of the floor and it's only half the game.

Put it into perspective - DJ Augustin was our best player last year (debatable). Before his arrival, we sucked. DJ Augustin.

No. No he wasn't. He was just the high scorer in a PG centric offense. Would be like saying JL3 was our best player when Rose was out in 2011-12. They filled the same role in a similar manner. DJ shat the bed when it really mattered. (so did Jo and Jimmy, though) . But Noah was 4th in MVP voting, which tells you what most people thought of his impact.

The Bulls were actually a better team with Kirk at point, than they were with DJ (more than net 2 pts per100 better) )t's easy to only look at points scored, but there is another side to the game, you have to stop the other guy, and it matters just as much.

Not to diminish what DJ did for us last reg season. It was huge and we needed it.. just like we needed Nate and JL3. when Rose was out. But none of them were close to the best player on the team.

There is a reason that Noah basically had to play PG in our offense when DJ was on the floor.

[johnnyvann840]

See this is why I get a bit frustrated. We don't overrate our players to the extent that say Knicks fans do, except for one exception - Joakim Noah.

It must be the entire basketball World, then, because Jo is an all star, 1st team ALL NBA, and DPOY.

[Proven_Winner]

I just don't see how Jo has no chance to some of you to be in the top 15. He was 23 last year and has only gotten better at the VERY least Jo will be at 20, but 15 is not like he's being overrated. I see some want to put Dwight so what did Dwight do this past year to solidify him so far ahead of Jo? Let's see looking at the stats the only thing he did significantly better was score 6 more points and a way better FG% which is no surprise, but Jo passes him in FTs and Assists. Jo was considered Mvp, made all nba 1st over dwight, and won DPOY that's alot for a center who appearantly isn't top 15 and debatable top 20.

[bledredwine]

Yeah. You and Dice should consider actually watching him play.. maybe youtube a couple of his games from last year because apparently neither of you know what kind of season he just had. Be honest - how many Raptors games did you watch? He led a historically bad squad to the 4 seed and had the definition of breakout season. He also got the best of Joe Johnson while Noah got his as served by Nene in the playoffs

How many games did you actually watch of the Raptors?

On what planet was that Raptors team of last season a historically bad squad?

That is a laughable statement.

You're asking people to not be biased and be objective in this thread, but then you come up with these zingers.

Please.

You completely changed the meaning of what I intended although I can see why - what I meant by that statwment is that the raptors ARE historically a bad squad - they had a solid enough roster last year but are historically unsuccessful. Although without Demar's breakout season? No chance. And the "zingers" will keep coming. We overrate Noah. It's just as annoying to me as when you get annoyed by blatant homerism from other teams. The only thing laughable is acting like Noah is on his own planet from players like Demar, Wall, or as you did, Nene.

[johnnyvann840]

Yeah. You and Dice should consider actually watching him play.. maybe youtube a couple of his games from last year because apparently neither of you know what kind of season he just had. Be honest - how many Raptors games did you watch? He led a historically bad squad to the 4 seed and had the definition of breakout season. He also got the best of Joe Johnson while Noah got his as served by Nene in the playoffs

How many games did you actually watch of the Raptors?

On what planet was that Raptors team of last season a historically bad squad?

That is a laughable statement.

You're asking people to not be biased and be objective in this thread, but then you come up with these zingers.

Please.

You completely changed the meaning of what I intended although I can see why - what I meant by that statwment is that the raptors ARE historically a bad squad - they had a solid enough roster last year but are historically unsuccessful. Although without Demar's breakout season? No chance. And the "zingers" will keep coming. We overrate Noah. It's just as annoying to me as when you get annoyed by blatant homerism from other teams. The only thing laughable is acting like Noah is on his own planet from players like Demar, Wall, or as you did, Nene.

Your own opinion is fine. Just don't call out the majority of Bulls fans for theirs. When you say "we overrate Noah" you should say "the whole World" overrates him. He is thought of very highly amongst players and coaches and even talking heads and pundits. I really don't care where ESPN ranks a player anyway.

Your opinion is the dissenting one. Be annoyed with the coaches who made him an all star- the people who voted him 1st Team All NBA, and Defensive Player of the Year.

Look, you're ripping Noah for the playoffs but the Bulls ran a 7 man rotation ragged last year, cause they basically had to to win 48 games. Strangely, the Bulls who played well, Taj, MDJ, Kirk for the most part, all guys who didn't get overworked. Boozer and DJ really had no excuse and were our two biggest problems in the offs. It wasn't ideal, but I'm not holding Noah (or Jimmy) fully accountable for their playoff woes. They were spent and beat. I think both were beat up and hurting more than we know but were being tough and great teammates not complaining. We were short and they were forced to play

[bledredwine]

How many games did you actually watch of the Raptors?

On what planet was that Raptors team of last season a historically bad squad?

That is a laughable statement.

You're asking people to not be biased and be objective in this thread, but then you come up with these zingers.

Please.

You completely changed the meaning of what I intended although I can see why - what I meant by that statwment is that the raptors ARE historically a bad squad - they had a solid enough roster last year but are historically unsuccessful. Although without Demar's breakout season? No chance. And the "zingers" will keep coming. We overrate Noah. It's just as annoying to me as when you get annoyed by blatant homerism from other teams. The only thing laughable is acting like Noah is on his own planet from players like Demar, Wall, or as you did, Nene.

Your own opinion is fine. Just don't call out the majority of Bulls fans for theirs. When you say "we overrate Noah" you should say "the whole World" overrates him. He is thought of very highly amongst players and coaches and even talking heads and pundits. I really don't care where ESPN ranks a player anyway.

Your opinion is the dissenting one. Be annoyed with the coaches who made him an all star- the people who voted him 1st Team All NBA, and Defensive Player of the Year.

Look, you're ripping Noah for the playoffs but the Bulls ran a 7 man rotation ragged last year, cause they basically had to to win 48 games. It wasn't ideal, but I'm not holding Noah (or Jimmy) fully accountable for their playoff woes. They were spent and beat. I think both were beat up and hurting more than we know but were being tough and great teammates not complaining. We were short and they were forced to play

Many fans have stated that we overrate Noah - I'm not some lone wolf on this opinion. I will say this - He had a tremendous season and has an unusual ability to assist for a big man. If it was as important for big men to assist as it was for a PG or even for Jo on the bulls last year, I would consider him a top 15 player no question. But that was in context and he's not going to be doing that again this year. Anyone who expects another season like that is in for a big disappointment. It also seems like he always has an excuse for the playoffs and is never healthy. Well I can't consider him one of the best until he does win his matchups in the playoffs and stops having one amazing game surrounded by games where the other player bests him.

[No-Man]

Seriously, I dont mean any disrespect but some opinions here are laughable, Carmelo Anthony is not better than Noah? seriously? Curry? Howard?

I understand the point of the list, Noah was the DPOY, plus many guys being out or having down seasons, will get Noah into the top15-20.

That does not mean that Noah is a top15-20 player right now, I am talking about my own list, like everyone else, not about ESPNs.

Noah is a top40 player, thats the most far I can go, he is not top25 to me, nor top30, I have my doubts where to put him in the 30-40 rank aswell, so I'd go safe and say that he is a top40 player.

And that's a lot, and a big compliment, he is a terrific player, he is just not elite, the hype is a little too high with him, and its because the vibe you get from his attitude and intensity that people love, his play is good also, but he gets praised way too much because of other reasons.

[No-Man]

I just don't see how Jo has no chance to some of you to be in the top 15. He was 23 last year and has only gotten better at the VERY least Jo will be at 20, but 15 is not like he's being overrated. I see some want to put Dwight so what did Dwight do this past year to solidify him so far ahead of Jo? Let's see looking at the stats the only thing he did significantly better was score 6 more points and a way better FG% which is no surprise, but Jo passes him in FTs and Assists. Jo was considered Mvp, made all nba 1st over dwight, and won DPOY that's alot for a center who appearantly isn't top 15 and debatable top 20.

How is Noah a MVP pretender when his team wasnt even top10 (tied for 11th with 2 teams) in the league and lost badly in the PO 1st round?

Noah is an MVP candidate, or was last season because the press and the fans love him, because of his play, but mostly his attitude and demeanor, and he gets overhype, he is not a MVP caliber player, not even close.

He just happens to be a fan favourite.

Howard is better than Noah and had a better season, Howard is a terrific player that has some attitude issues and gets criticized everywhere he goes and murder by the media, it is what it is, the Rockets were a superior team to the Bulls last season and they play with no system and with no coach, McHale is bottom 5 in the league.
Seriously, will any of you even think about flipping Noah for Howard for a second?

I understand that the point of the list is ranking the players regarding their previous play from last season, but Howard season was better than Noah's, is just that simple.

I am seriously quite surprised reading your thoughts.

[No-Man]

Bron, KD, Curry, Harden, Dwight, Al Jefferson (way to forget about him. He just posted 21 and 10 and led charlotte last year), Westbrook, Blake, CP, A. Davis, Duncan, LMA (come on guys just admit it), Love, Melo, Dirk, Bosh, Lillard.

Please explain how it wouldn't be an upset if any single one of those players was cut for Noah being a better player? The problem is without knowing it, you're all ranking Thibs with Noah. He's not the reason our defense is great, believe it or not. He's a part of it.

It would not be an upset if Joakim Noah is ranked higher than Duncan, Jefferson, Bosh, Lillard or Dirk.

seriously how not?
I can understand Jefferson or Bosh, Jefferson does not really have a lot of media attention and Bosh lost in the finals and didnt have a great year, but the other 3? seriously?

Nowitzki worst season in his career, after 1-2 years is miles better than any of Jo seasons so far, is a complete different dimension.

Duncan should've won Finals MVP and the Spurs basically dominated the League all year long with him being the 2nd best player on the team.

[johnnyvann840]

I will say this - He had a tremendous season and has an unusual ability to assist for a big man. If it was as important for big men to assist as it was for a PG or even for Jo on the bulls last year, I would consider him a top 15 player no question. But that was in context and he's not going to be doing that again this year.

Ahhh.. but he will do that this year. Except now, it will be a really deadly weapon instead of a predicable go to. With Rose being a much bigger threat to penetrate, I think we are going to see a lot of great big man passing.

[bledredwine]

I will say this - He had a tremendous season and has an unusual ability to assist for a big man. If it was as important for big men to assist as it was for a PG or even for Jo on the bulls last year, I would consider him a top 15 player no question. But that was in context and he's not going to be doing that again this year.

Ahhh.. but he will do that this year. Except now, it will be a really deadly weapon instead of a predicable go to. With Rose being a much bigger threat to penetrate, I think we are going to see a lot of great big man passing.

Haha well touché.. I do disagree, and believe we're not going to have Noah operate half of the offense. Our ball movement will be awesome, but I'd be blown away if he had another 5 assist season.

Operating our offense through Noah is not going to win us playoff games. We need penetration and Rose is ball dominant. Noah got tons of touches right away last year. Noah's assists have been inflated since Rose's leave, which if anything is proof that we have been in dire need of shot creation, hence why Nate Marco DJ looked like geniuses.

I will even go as far as to say Nene if given that many touches would get almost as many assists as Noah. He's the most underrated big man passer in the league, and this isn't just because I was a hardcore Denver fan back in the day - it's true. It's funny that I hate him now… but I respect his game. He's just never healthy and rarely gets full minutes.

[Proven_Winner]

I just don't see how Jo has no chance to some of you to be in the top 15. He was 23 last year and has only gotten better at the VERY least Jo will be at 20, but 15 is not like he's being overrated. I see some want to put Dwight so what did Dwight do this past year to solidify him so far ahead of Jo? Let's see looking at the stats the only thing he did significantly better was score 6 more points and a way better FG% which is no surprise, but Jo passes him in FTs and Assists. Jo was considered Mvp, made all nba 1st over dwight, and won DPOY that's alot for a center who appearantly isn't top 15 and debatable top 20.

How is Noah a MVP pretender when his team wasnt even top10 (tied for 11th with 2 teams) in the league and lost badly in the PO 1st round?

Noah is an MVP candidate, or was last season because the press and the fans love him, because of his play, but mostly his attitude and demeanor, and he gets overhype, he is not a MVP caliber player, not even close.

He just happens to be a fan favourite.

Howard is better than Noah and had a better season, Howard is a terrific player that has some attitude issues and gets criticized everywhere he goes and murder by the media, it is what it is, the Rockets were a superior team to the Bulls last season and they play with no system and with no coach, McHale is bottom 5 in the league.
Seriously, will any of you even think about flipping Noah for Howard for a second?

I understand that the point of the list is ranking the players regarding their previous play from last season, but Howard season was better than Noah's, is just that simple.

I am seriously quite surprised reading your thoughts.

Well let's add some more guys to that list in Harden and George who had higher seeds and both their teams were getting embarrassed in the PO, but does that mean both guys weren't worthy of MVP votes? No.

No the press, fans, players, and coaches like him. Now fans and players don't mean **** in MVP votes so don't know why you brought up fans. How has he been overhyped? MVP is not who is the best player in the NBA it's about who has a very high impact on their teams success and last year Jo was that guy deserving of the votes and if you don't think so you must not watch the Bulls.

And apparently a coach and media favorite.

Never said Howard wasn't better I said how much better. Dwight is good, but I would definitely hesitate to trade him for Noah. Of course they were superior because they didn't have to deal with an injured roster that never had a clear rotation the whole season.

Again never said howard wasn't better he's just not world's better than Noah which means don't be surprised if you see Jo top 15.

I'm surprised reading your thoughts as you try to find ways to demean Jo's accomplishments this year and say why he shouldn't rank in the top 15 or 20 on this list. It's doesn't say who is better than who it's just about who performed better than who last season and Jo has made a case to be way up there after only being 23 last season.

[MAQ]

i dont know why cousins is listed, he doesnt have his **** together. hes SO talented and puts up numbers, but if noah can scrap us into the playoffs how he did, where is boogies team with his 20 and 12?

In the western conference...

[dice]

We don't overrate our players to the extent that say Knicks fans do, except for one exception - Joakim Noah

was it another board that was talking about trading him prior to last season?

was it the realGM bulls board that voted him #4 in the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER race last season?

Because MVP = best player race.

So how much MVP and DPOY consideration did Noah get pre-Thibs?

Do you believe he'd be in that MVP race if the Bulls didn't acquire DJ and kept losing like champs?

Just curious.

my point is that nobody on this board considers noah to be a top 5 player. and probably not a top 10 player. and yet he was voted by the MEDIA #4 in the MVP race. how do you get from that the WE are overrating him?

[Mech Engineer]

We don't overrate our players to the extent that say Knicks fans do, except for one exception - Joakim Noah

was it another board that was talking about trading him prior to last season?

was it the realGM bulls board that voted him #4 in the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER race last season?

Because MVP = best player race.

So how much MVP and DPOY consideration did Noah get pre-Thibs?

Do you believe he'd be in that MVP race if the Bulls didn't acquire DJ and kept losing like champs?
curious.

C'mon...he is a big man who usually take time to develop. Plus, he was in the first few years in the league before Thibs and was hardly given a chance in his first year.

Who cares what he was before or what he is supposed to be 6 years from now? It is based on the actual impact of Joakim on the Bulls for Y 2013-14. What did Melo do? He could not take his team to the playoffs let alone perform in the playoffs? But, he is a top 10 player while Noah is in some 30 -40 range? That's just pure nonsense.

Irving might be the best player in the NBA 4 years from now. But, last year his impact was team dis-order, coach firing, lottery leader and a lousy team. I have concerns about Noah because of his fit on the Bulls.

But, that should not be the reason to minimize Noah's actual impact while most of the other guys(Melo, Irving etc..) are all about "theoritical or possible" impact.

[kingkirk]

You completely changed the meaning of what I intended although I can see why - what I meant by that statwment is that the raptors ARE historically a bad squad - they had a solid enough roster last year but are historically unsuccessful. Although without Demar's breakout season? No chance.

I still have no clue what you're getting at. What does being a losing team in previous seasons, most of which Demar wasn't in the league for, have to do with what he did this season?

What do the 2005 Raptors have to do with Derozan and his play this season?

And the "zingers" will keep coming. We overrate Noah. It's just as annoying to me as when you get annoyed by blatant homerism from other teams. The only thing laughable is acting like Noah is on his own planet from players like Demar, Wall, or as you did, Nene.

I am not putting Noah on his own planet or suggesting he should be ahead of where he needs to be, like a real homer would.

All i am suggesting is that you don't measure value, impact and worth by PPG.

[kingkirk]

seriously how not?
I can understand Jefferson or Bosh, Jefferson does not really have a lot of media attention and Bosh lost in the finals and didnt have a great year, but the other 3? seriously?

Nowitzki worst season in his career, after 1-2 years is miles better than any of Jo seasons so far, is a complete different dimension.

Duncan should've won Finals MVP and the Spurs basically dominated the League all year long with him being the 2nd best player on the team.

What does Dirk do now another that score and shoot the ball?

He has lost a step, doesn't rebound much and is ordinary on defense. He is still a very good player, but he has lost a little bit. His resume prior to 2013-14 is irrelevant. We're discussing their games as at now.

Same thing with Duncan. He is arguably the games best defensive big, but his offense is not good anymore. It's average. His TS% is average. People like to discredit Noah because of his lack of offensive game and scoring, but his TS% almost mirrored Duncan's (53.5 to 53.1). This being done in a heavy offensive system that was good enough for 3rd in the league, whilst Jo did it in one of the worst offenses in the NBA.

Like Noah, Duncan is incredibly important to those Spurs team, even if he has regressed, but let's look at reality. He isn't the same player on the offensive side of the ball as he once was.

[TheStig]

Noah has an excellent shot of being in the top 20. Here is one stat that should show how well regarded he is in the national media. He was 12th in MVP voting in 2012-13 and 4th in 2013-14. I would be surprised if he fell out of the top 20. I wouldn't be shocked if he mde into #10 either. He was somewhere in that 10-20 range last year IMO.

[bledredwine]

You completely changed the meaning of what I intended although I can see why - what I meant by that statwment is that the raptors ARE historically a bad squad - they had a solid enough roster last year but are historically unsuccessful. Although without Demar's breakout season? No chance.

I still have no clue what you're getting at. What does being a losing team in previous seasons, most of which Demar wasn't in the league for, have to do with what he did this season?

What do the 2005 Raptors have to do with Derozan and his play this season?

And the "zingers" will keep coming. We overrate Noah. It's just as annoying to me as when you get annoyed by blatant homerism from other teams. The only thing laughable is acting like Noah is on his own planet from players like Demar, Wall, or as you did, Nene.

I am not putting Noah on his own planet or suggesting he should be ahead of where he needs to be, like a real homer would.

All i am suggesting is that you don't measure value, impact and worth by PPG.

I remember you disagreeing when I said that Noah was "on the same tier" as Nene….. which is what I don't understand in general. As for Demar - I think that it says a lot when you are part of a historically bad organization's success. The best example of this is MJ's 6 championships. Of course this is on a way lesser scale. VC was special as well, and moreso than Demar. So was Chris Bosh. There's definitely something to it.

The Raptors made the 3rd seed and Demar was their best player. And yet some scoff at me ranking Demar above Noah? That's what I consider homerism. Raptors fans would not want Noah for Demar, nor would we… and I'm just speaking strictly in terms of who our fan bases consider better.