The Derrick Rose Thread -MERGING

[bullsRlife]

^^^^^

You lost me at, "pretty good scorer", and, " solid player".

[tsherkin]

^^^^^

You lost me at, "pretty good scorer", and, " solid player".

Re-read, then

[kingkirk]

^ Doesn't like Derrick Rose, can't be trusted.

Will respond in saying he never said that. Even more reason not to trust him.

[Keller61]

^^^^^

You lost me at, "pretty good scorer", and, " solid player".

He's got grit, too.

Oh wait, we're not talking about Kirk?

[fleet]

^^^ No. Derrick is grimy, not gritty. Kirk gritty. Derrick grimy.

[League Circles]

I think there's a very good chance that Dunleavy has a career year off of rose drive and kicks. He's never played with a penetrator like that IIRC.

[Stratmaster]

How is it that Ty Lawson and John Wall are on teams who ranked lower last season in FG% than the Bulls did the two seasons I showed for the bulls (last two seasons Rose played) but were 2nd and 3rd in assists per game last season?

Per 100 possessions:

2013-2014

Code: Select all

Player       AST TOV  PTS
John Wall   12.5 5.1 27.4

2013-2014

Code: Select all

                         
Player       AST TOV  PTS
Ty Lawson   12.0 4.4 24.0


2011-2012

Code: Select all

                           
Player          AST TOV  PTS
Derrick Rose   12.0 4.7 33.4


2010-2011

Code: Select all

                           
Player          AST TOV  PTS
Derrick Rose   10.9 4.9 35.6


AST%, TOV%, & USG%:

2013-2014

Code: Select all

Player      AST% TOV% USG%
John Wall   40.5 16.3 27.4

2013-2014

Code: Select all

                         
Player      AST% TOV% USG%
Ty Lawson   38.2 16.9 22.7


2011-2012

Code: Select all

                               
Player         AST% TOV% USG%
Derrick Rose   40.3 12.9 30.5


2010-2011

Code: Select all

                             
Player         AST% TOV% USG%
Derrick Rose   38.7 13.1 32.2


In Rose's MVP year, the Bulls were 23rd (of 30) in pace. To be exact, they averaged 90.4 possessions per game. The year after that, they were 28th, with 89.1 possessions per game. The Nuggets last season were 3rd in pace, at 98.1 possessions per game. While the Wiz avg'd 93.2 possessions per game.

Last season, the Nuggets avg'd 23.9 3PA's per game. While the Wizards averaged 20.8. The Bulls, in '11 & '12? 17.3, and 16.9 respectively.

Also look at roster construction. The Wizards had 3 guys (Wall not one of them), average 4 or more 3PA's per game. Wall is a really good drive and kick player.

The Nuggets also had 3 guys average 4 or more 3PA's per game. However, per 36, they had 8! guys that averaged 4 or more 3PA's per game. And Lawson was not one of them.

I'd also note that while you mentioned FG%, the Wizards actually had a better eFG% than the Bulls did, in those two seasons you compared w/Rose. .506 for the Wizards, and in '11 the Bulls had an eFG% of .501, and '12 .490 (w/Rose missing 27 games).

The Nuggets eFG% was .497, but they play at such a fast pace, it's easily understood that he (Lawson) will have more assists opps.

Maybe you didn't read the part where I said DRose assists were not an issue for me, and that his numbers compare very well to the best in the league. The discussion was around Rose missing out on assists because his teammates can't hit shots. eFG% has nothing to do with that from an assist quantity perspective. DRose is not being held back from getting assists because his teammates can't shoot. Pace? Sure that has an effect. The fact that he is the primary scorer? Absolutely that has an effect.

[DanTown8587]

Every team in the league misses shots. Unless you're going to show some stat like "Derrick only has 56% of his potential assists converted where John Wall has 84% converted," I'm not going to buy some anecdotal evidence that is primarily used by Derrick Rose fans to once again rip his teammates to prop Derrick up (see: 2010-11 MVP season when the primary thing was "Derrick is carrying a bunch of scrubs to 62 wins").

Part of the reason why Derrick doesn't get more assists is two fold:

1. Derrick shoots more than other PG so that leaves less shots for his teammates to get assists from
2. Derrick doesn't really drive to create for others as much as he drives to create for himself

[Mech Engineer]

Outsider peeking in:

Rose is not a conventional point guard, and 2011 was a weird season. Chicago shouldn't have forced him to shoot that much, since that's a tactical exploit waiting to happen in the PS. Credit Rose for playing very well and mixing his drive with very good shooting ability.

Reading this thread, I see a fancy with conventional PG style that seems at odds with the way in which basketball games are won. Like volume scoring, volume distributing is only useful within the right context. For volume scoring, it's strong efficiency with good reads on the D coupled with good passing when the help D arrives. For volume playmaking, it's only useful if it works with the roster the team has and is matched by the ability to switch modes and score well enough and often enough to keep the defense honest. It behooves one to recall that volume playmakers have only won 5 titles, and even Magic wasn't quite the #1 option on his team for all of those titles, yes? Balanced offense is usually better; Magic was great because he could create opportunities out of nothing, which he matched against highly-efficient mid-volume scoring. He had to replace some of Kareem's lost scoring as KAJ declined, so he scored more. He maintained the balance.

Rose is a very good player. He's a pretty good scorer. He's an extremely talented mid-range shooter who can get to the rim and who finishes at a rate relatively similar to Russell Westbrook. He's had trouble, even when healthy, drawing fouls, but he sucks the D in and he's a strong penetrate-and-pitch passer who was showing signs of improving his PnR playmaking, particularly when Boozer was hitting his bloody jumpers and still able to go to the rim be-times.

This is not something with which to be frustrated; you don't need a 10 apg guy unless the guy getting those assists is doing so at an elite level. There's a difference between the 10 apg Rondo was getting and the 10 which Nash was getting, for example.

If Rose is healthy and scoring at even a league-average level of efficiency in the high teens or low 20s, then the Bulls have their RS offense sewn up in advance. They were pretty rough without him last year, but they've gone and added Pau Gasol, who is also an excellent PnR player.

Even Old Man Gasol last year (and playing for idiot MAD) was a roughly 17/10 player. He was, of course, noticeably less efficient than usual, but that's because as aforementioned, Mike D'Antoni is an idiot. Gasol does have good hands, good range and great length for finishing around the rim. Since leaving Memphis, he's averaged 44.5% from 10-15 feet and 43.6% from 16-23 feet, while shooting over 67% at the rim. He'll struggle with his health, of course, but in essence, he's better than Boozer has ever been.

Matching a partner like that with Rose is a very good idea, because Derrick will be able to exploit that very effectively. Now you add Noah; now you add Dunleavy (who, say what you will, is still a competent 3pt shooter). In limited minutes, Hinrich can space. Two years ago, Butler showed some 3pt range; maybe in a more dynamic offensive environment, that will return.

The point is, Rose is a solid player, and with the increase in offensive talent around him, I suspect a lot of the complaints about him not being a savant playmaker or a more classical player will go away. Hope for health; as long as he has that, Rose will very likely show that he can be extremely effective with what the Bulls put on the court.

Cheers.

Good read...We can see the organizational philosophy of how they want to use Derrick. Pax always talked about building around Derrick. And, after the two injuries, he started saying building with Derrick. There is a shift in how they want to use Derrick. They tried to get Melo not for his star skillset but also as a build with Derrick type player.

I agree with your post plus I think what you wrote is impactful in wins with Derrick's style. But, the key is until he can prove he can remain healthy with this style of play...there will be questions asked about his passing. They didn't try to get a second wing playmaker with all the flexibility they had and thus basically locking down the philosophy back to the Derrick Rose being the primary guard ball handler.

It will be interesting to see how Thibs will use the big men(who are all skilled offensively) than what it was in 2010-12(All of them...Gasol, Taj, Noah and Mirotic are better).

IMO, big men's offense gives you easier baskets and it is more punishing to the opponent's defense. They can soften up the defense for Derrick who can then use his skills/athleticism to take advantage. I think it can be a little bit of change where earlier Derrick opened up everything for the big men to the big men opening up things for Derrick.

[Rerisen]

Re: assists

It stands to reason you get more assists if Ray Allen is shooting from your passes than Ronnie Brewer. But I don't think its some significant number. Obviously without Derrick the last 2 years, the offense has been crap - and only not league worst because of pickups like Nate and DJ, who notably aren't here to help when Derrick is healthy - so that kind of shows you that yeah the Bulls probably blow more opportunities than other teams, with less efficient players. But who knows if its one shot a game or what.

On the other hand, Derrick has really high usage due to being primary playmaker, so this gets him extra assists too that wouldn't be there if we had other guys handling the ball more. But if you look at the rate Derrick has to score for this team, his assist numbers are pretty much in line with other big time dual role scoring/playmaker leaders like LeBron and Wade when they were sole number #1s on their teams. It's just rare you are going to see a guy averaging 24 PPG and also 10 assists.

Re: Rose's vision

One thing I find ironic about the Bulls roster as it relates to Rose as a PG, it lacks secondary playmakers, or especially off the dribble, and I think because of this lack there is unconscious extra pressure applied to Derrick from segments of the fanbase to set the entire team up for good shots. Because people notice when Derrick isn't creating a shot for someone, the offense is generally been pretty bad. Maybe if there was another wing on the team that could consistently get 3 or 4 assists a night, people wouldn't be so focused on that Derrick isn't Chris Paul or Rondo at setting people up, on top of being a top 3 scoring PG in the league. Always seemed a little overkill on expectations.

The answer is to balance out the roster on skill sets not to expect your already best and franchise player to become elite in another category he's never been elite in.

[Mech Engineer]

Re: assists

It stands to reason you get more assists if Ray Allen is shooting from your passes than Ronnie Brewer. But I don't think its some significant number. Obviously without Derrick the last 2 years, the offense has been crap - and only not league worst because of pickups like Nate and DJ, who notably aren't here to help when Derrick is healthy - so that kind of shows you that yeah the Bulls probably blow more opportunities than other teams, with less efficient players. But who knows if its one shot a game or what.

On the other hand, Derrick has really high usage due to being primary playmaker, so this gets him extra assists too that wouldn't be there if we had other guys handling the ball more. But if you look at the rate Derrick has to score for this team, his assist numbers are pretty much in line with other big time dual role scoring/playmaker leaders like LeBron and Wade when they were sole number #1s on their teams. It's just rare you are going to see a guy averaging 24 PPG and also 10 assists.

Re: Rose's vision

One thing I find ironic about the Bulls roster as it relates to Rose as a PG, it lacks secondary playmakers, or especially off the dribble, and I think because of this lack there is unconscious extra pressure applied to Derrick from segments of the fanbase to set the entire team up for good shots. Because people notice when Derrick isn't creating a shot for someone, the offense is generally been pretty bad. Maybe if there was another wing on the team that could consistently get 3 or 4 assists a night, people wouldn't be so focused on that Derrick isn't Chris Paul or Rondo at setting people up, on top of being a top 3 scoring PG in the league. Always seemed a little overkill on expectations.

I just don't think it is easy to switch philosophies either. That's why Rondo/Paul cannot score like Derrick/Westbrook do. The coaches/players play based on a philosophy of attacking and then trying to score/distribute. Rondo/Paul dribble the ball with the mind-set of distributing because they know they cannot attack/finish like Derrick/Westbrook. If they tried to mix and match(which they cannot), they will go down in distributing efficiency.

[2Chainz]

Why is it a belief here that Derrick's MVP was undeserved?

[bullsRlife]

Re: assists

It stands to reason you get more assists if Ray Allen is shooting from your passes than Ronnie Brewer. But I don't think its some significant number. Obviously without Derrick the last 2 years, the offense has been crap - and only not league worst because of pickups like Nate and DJ, who notably aren't here to help when Derrick is healthy - so that kind of shows you that yeah the Bulls probably blow more opportunities than other teams, with less efficient players. But who knows if its one shot a game or what.

On the other hand, Derrick has really high usage due to being primary playmaker, so this gets him extra assists too that wouldn't be there if we had other guys handling the ball more. But if you look at the rate Derrick has to score for this team, his assist numbers are pretty much in line with other big time dual role scoring/playmaker leaders like LeBron and Wade when they were sole number #1s on their teams. It's just rare you are going to see a guy averaging 24 PPG and also 10 assists.

Re: Rose's vision

One thing I find ironic about the Bulls roster as it relates to Rose as a PG, it lacks secondary playmakers, or especially off the dribble, and I think because of this lack there is unconscious extra pressure applied to Derrick from segments of the fanbase to set the entire team up for good shots. Because people notice when Derrick isn't creating a shot for someone, the offense is generally been pretty bad. Maybe if there was another wing on the team that could consistently get 3 or 4 assists a night, people wouldn't be so focused on that Derrick isn't Chris Paul or Rondo at setting people up, on top of being a top 3 scoring PG in the league. Always seemed a little overkill on expectations.

The answer is to balance out the roster on skill sets not to expect your already best and franchise player to become elite in another category he's never been elite in.

Spot. On.

[TheJordanRule]

Re: assists

It stands to reason you get more assists if Ray Allen is shooting from your passes than Ronnie Brewer. But I don't think its some significant number. Obviously without Derrick the last 2 years, the offense has been crap - and only not league worst because of pickups like Nate and DJ, who notably aren't here to help when Derrick is healthy - so that kind of shows you that yeah the Bulls probably blow more opportunities than other teams, with less efficient players. But who knows if its one shot a game or what.

On the other hand, Derrick has really high usage due to being primary playmaker, so this gets him extra assists too that wouldn't be there if we had other guys handling the ball more. But if you look at the rate Derrick has to score for this team, his assist numbers are pretty much in line with other big time dual role scoring/playmaker leaders like LeBron and Wade when they were sole number #1s on their teams. It's just rare you are going to see a guy averaging 24 PPG and also 10 assists.

Re: Rose's vision

One thing I find ironic about the Bulls roster as it relates to Rose as a PG, it lacks secondary playmakers, or especially off the dribble, and I think because of this lack there is unconscious extra pressure applied to Derrick from segments of the fanbase to set the entire team up for good shots. Because people notice when Derrick isn't creating a shot for someone, the offense is generally been pretty bad. Maybe if there was another wing on the team that could consistently get 3 or 4 assists a night, people wouldn't be so focused on that Derrick isn't Chris Paul or Rondo at setting people up, on top of being a top 3 scoring PG in the league. Always seemed a little overkill on expectations.

The answer is to balance out the roster on skill sets not to expect your already best and franchise player to become elite in another category he's never been elite in.

Your post seems like disingenuous pandering but for the sake of argument, let's treat it as sincere. First, I agree that Rose deserves a lot of credit for being our best player on offense. Where you lose me is this nutty idea that we are somehow obligated to never call him on his flaws on offense. Asking Rose to improve at a skill as basic as passing when he plays point guard-- a position that places a premium on passing ability-- isn't unreasonable or disrespectful. It's actually a must. You're too content to sit around blaming the front office for its failures in the off season. You ignore the fact that Rose is such a potent threat on offense that he consistently draws defenders in on him, out of position, and Rose is always slow at recognizing and exploiting this. I've seen nothing in the FIBA or preseason to suggest he's even attempted to up his game in this regard. If anything, he seems worse at it than ever before. In his last season, Rose averaged 4.3 assists while playing 31 minutes per game. That's not just "not elite". Those are third string point guard numbers. And yet the fan boys cry and personally insult anyone who brings this up while And-1'ing your post. ^.^

[tsherkin]

I'm curious why you define elite-level passing by volume.

Rose's last, injured season, was a 10-game sample. Using that as a meaningul source for analysis is by far more disingenuous than anything said elsewhere in this thread. After roughly averaging 6 AST36 in eah of his first two seasons, he posted 7.4 and 8.0 in the next two before posting that 5 AST36 season over 10 games, just to entertain your volume examination.

You should probabl reevaluate your stance on that one, because it is an irrefutably fallacious angle of consideration.

Rose could improve in several areas, like basically any player, but his passing is not an area of major deficiency, and certainly not based on volume output in a 10-game sample.

[PaKii94]

Re: assists

It stands to reason you get more assists if Ray Allen is shooting from your passes than Ronnie Brewer. But I don't think its some significant number. Obviously without Derrick the last 2 years, the offense has been crap - and only not league worst because of pickups like Nate and DJ, who notably aren't here to help when Derrick is healthy - so that kind of shows you that yeah the Bulls probably blow more opportunities than other teams, with less efficient players. But who knows if its one shot a game or what.

On the other hand, Derrick has really high usage due to being primary playmaker, so this gets him extra assists too that wouldn't be there if we had other guys handling the ball more. But if you look at the rate Derrick has to score for this team, his assist numbers are pretty much in line with other big time dual role scoring/playmaker leaders like LeBron and Wade when they were sole number #1s on their teams. It's just rare you are going to see a guy averaging 24 PPG and also 10 assists.

Re: Rose's vision

One thing I find ironic about the Bulls roster as it relates to Rose as a PG, it lacks secondary playmakers, or especially off the dribble, and I think because of this lack there is unconscious extra pressure applied to Derrick from segments of the fanbase to set the entire team up for good shots. Because people notice when Derrick isn't creating a shot for someone, the offense is generally been pretty bad. Maybe if there was another wing on the team that could consistently get 3 or 4 assists a night, people wouldn't be so focused on that Derrick isn't Chris Paul or Rondo at setting people up, on top of being a top 3 scoring PG in the league. Always seemed a little overkill on expectations.

The answer is to balance out the roster on skill sets not to expect your already best and franchise player to become elite in another category he's never been elite in.

Your post seems like disingenuous pandering but for the sake of argument, let's treat it as sincere. First, I agree that Rose deserves a lot of credit for being our best player on offense. Where you lose me is this nutty idea that we are somehow obligated to never call him on his flaws on offense. Asking Rose to improve at a skill as basic as passing when he plays point guard-- a position that places a premium on passing ability-- isn't unreasonable or disrespectful. It's actually a must. You're too content to sit around blaming the front office for its failures in the off season. You ignore the fact that Rose is such a potent threat on offense that he consistently draws defenders in on him, out of position, and Rose is always slow at recognizing and exploiting this. I've seen nothing in the FIBA or preseason to suggest he's even attempted to up his game in this regard. If anything, he seems worse at it than ever before. In his last season, Rose averaged 4.3 assists while playing 31 minutes per game. That's not just "not elite". Those are third string point guard numbers. And yet the fan boys cry and personally insult anyone who brings this up while And-1'ing your post. ^.^

do you forget we were having growing pains last year?

[Rerisen]

Your post seems like disingenuous pandering but for the sake of argument, let's treat it as sincere. First, I agree that Rose deserves a lot of credit for being our best player on offense. Where you lose me is this nutty idea that we are somehow obligated to never call him on his flaws on offense. Asking Rose to improve at a skill as basic as passing when he plays point guard-- a position that places a premium on passing ability-- isn't unreasonable or disrespectful. It's actually a must. You're too content to sit around blaming the front office for its failures in the off season. You ignore the fact that Rose is such a potent threat on offense that he consistently draws defenders in on him, out of position, and Rose is always slow at recognizing and exploiting this. I've seen nothing in the FIBA or preseason to suggest he's even attempted to up his game in this regard. If anything, he seems worse at it than ever before. In his last season, Rose averaged 4.3 assists while playing 31 minutes per game. That's not just "not elite". Those are third string point guard numbers. And yet the fan boys cry and personally insult anyone who brings this up while And-1'ing your post. ^.^

Did you watch 2012? I take it you did not, or you would have recognized Rose WAS improving his PG skills that season before the injuries started piling up. As Tsherk noted, using a 10 game sample from last year where Rose was rusty as heck all around and had a sub .500 TS% and criticizing his assist rate on that is ludicrous. No one doing serious analysis would consider that in any way resembling a healthy Derrick Rose.

I'd also lay off name calling and insulting your fellow posters while trying to play victim about others doing the same.

[TheJordanRule]

Your post seems like disingenuous pandering but for the sake of argument, let's treat it as sincere. First, I agree that Rose deserves a lot of credit for being our best player on offense. Where you lose me is this nutty idea that we are somehow obligated to never call him on his flaws on offense. Asking Rose to improve at a skill as basic as passing when he plays point guard-- a position that places a premium on passing ability-- isn't unreasonable or disrespectful. It's actually a must. You're too content to sit around blaming the front office for its failures in the off season. You ignore the fact that Rose is such a potent threat on offense that he consistently draws defenders in on him, out of position, and Rose is always slow at recognizing and exploiting this. I've seen nothing in the FIBA or preseason to suggest he's even attempted to up his game in this regard. If anything, he seems worse at it than ever before. In his last season, Rose averaged 4.3 assists while playing 31 minutes per game. That's not just "not elite". Those are third string point guard numbers. And yet the fan boys cry and personally insult anyone who brings this up while And-1'ing your post. ^.^

Did you watch 2012? I take it you did not, or you would have recognized Rose WAS improving his PG skills that season before the injuries started piling up. As Tsherk noted, using a 10 game sample from last year where Rose was rusty as heck all around and had a sub .500 TS% and criticizing his assist rate on that is ludicrous. No one doing serious analysis would consider that in any way resembling a healthy Derrick Rose.

I'd also lay off name calling and insulting your fellow posters while trying to play victim about others doing the same.

You're right that last season's 10 game sample size was too small and biased. My bad on that one. But my point that Rose has the passing ability of an NBA pine rider stands when you take a look at his collective stats. Rose's career assist rate per 36 minutes (in over 289 games played) is 6.6. Career pine riders like Pablo Prigioni, JJ Barea, Ramone Session and Will Bynum produce the same / basically the same career assist rate. Bench warmers like Phil Pressey (7.7 assists per 36 minutes), Greivis Vasquez (7.9 assists per 36 minutes) and Kendall Marshall (9.8 assists per 36 minutes) have career assist rates that dwarf Rose's. Shelvin Mack has a career assist rate of 6.3, and he's a guy who is not someone who handles the ball nearly as much as Rose. In fact, none of the guys I've mentioned have nearly as many opportunities to touch and distribute the ball as Rose. And yet all of them manage to keep pace with him or best him. Hmm... but I'm sure that's only because I'm putting a negative spin on Rose's passing greatness???? The only thing Rose's assisting ability has been consistently good for is finding guys open for long range jump shots... and that's not a particularly unique "talent". The drop off we saw in Boozer's play between his last year as a Jazz member and his first year as a Bull maybe largely attributable to Rose's overly praised, mediocre / occasionally inept pick and roll game, which must have been a shock to Boozer's system, since he had been playing for years with Deron Williams (career 8.8 assists per 36 minutes). We put up with Rose's good bench warmer / bad starter distribution skills because he's a game changing scorer, but why pretend his passing is a nonissue at a time like this, when we don't know if Rose is the MVP scoring Rose we saw a couple of seasons ago? If he doesn't return to previously elite levels at scoring, Rose's passing issues will be more pressing than they have ever been in his career. I wonder if we'll be talking about it then.

[Rerisen]

Rose's last 2 healthy years he averaged 7.4 and 8.0 assists per 36. No idea why anyone would use his career numbers when clearly his first two years he was learning to be an NBA point as well as sharing the PG duties with Hinrich.

As the #1 option on his team in the latter 2 years, he is using many more possessions to shoot than most PGs which means less for assists. The Bulls reaching the next level isn't dependent on Rose averaging another assist or two.

As for if Rose isn't the scorer he used to be, the Bulls won't be legit contenders if he's not, and a pure passing PG won't have anything to do with it either way. Having Rondo here or Deron wouldn't change things, as the Bulls need a #1 option more than they need a setup PG.

The Spurs are really hurting with their 4 titles because Tony Parker has a duplicate 6.6 career Ast average...

[Indomitable]

Why is it a belief here that Derrick's MVP was undeserved?

Silliness