Kind of OT: The Tank is Real in Philly

[LoveDaBoo]

The Sixers are building a team in the best way possible and everyone is mad

Right? I don't get the anti-tank sentiment. If there's no way you can be truly competitive, go ahead and wipe the board clean and start over. It's not like that's some sure-fire way to hack the league. If I were a 6ers fan, I'd want them to do that, and I'd want there to be that option. Otherwise, what? They hope to luck into a mid-round draft pick, or sign a superstar? Good luck with that. At least you get potential with this route. There's at least legitimate hope.

[LoveDaBoo]

I disagree about the tanking gets you no where argument. It's just essential that find a star level talent and then you maximise the core quickly, it's not an easy thing to do. OKC got KD and then within a few years were able to get Westbrook/Green/Ibaka, and from there they had enough to create a championship level roster through trade/further draft picks/etc. A lot's gone right for them, but the big blunder was the Perkins trade - they knew they were a defensive C away, and at the time Perkins was a key piece to Boston's defense, but he clearly got exposed as a pretty crappy player.

If one of MCW or Embiid becomes a star level player, they've got Noel and a top pick coming this season. A similar circumstance could arise, it's just about consolidating quickly. In the same way that Jeff Green got moved despite looknig like a promising player, Philly could move Noel for a different piece in a few years.

Even if they hadn't landed Westbrook, Ibaka, and Harden, just getting KD puts you in a great position. Sometimes you have to bottom out.

[kyrv]

As an ex tank contributor I look forward to seeing how this plays out.

It won't end well. They definitely will not come close to winning a Championship in the next five years and after that, most of the players they have now and draft next year will all be gone anyway and they'll still be no better than a middling team.

There really isn't a single successful tanking story in the history of the NBA. And no, the Spurs aren't one either.

The last 15 NBA titles were won by teams who haven't had a top three pick in the last 14 years. Except Miami and they drafted Beasley (2).

Out of the last ten NBA Champions the only teams who have had a top ten pick in the last 14 years was Bynum to the Lakers (10) and Wade (5).

Ask yourself why all the teams who are in the draft lottery are perpetually there, year after year after year, with few exceptions. Why are all the leagues best teams teams that never, or very rarely have a high pick in the draft.. For years the Lakers, the Spurs, hell, all the teams who have been consistently good.. none of them have had high picks from tanking.

OKC, GSW's and the Spurs and Bulls are really the only good teams (contenders) that were built almost entirely organically and none of them tanked to do it. The Warriors didn't tank to get Thompson or Curry.

Great stuff JV, you're awesome. Excellent research. It's even worse than I thought. The tanking talk here was just so embarrassing. It's not good to be bad.

I'll retell this story, Herm Edwards was the KC Chiefs head coach, the team had been decent but was now not good and very old. The owner, GM, and coach all agreed to blow it up and tank/rebuild. The fans were on board, big time. Everyone was happy and on the same page.

Season comes, the team, as promised and expected, loses. Coach gets fired. Eventually GM gets fired. After one agreed upon losing season.

Why? Because losing sucks. Being really bad really sucks and makes everyone miserable. And fans thought guys like Thibs and Noah would just smile and tank and be fine with it...was never going to happen. And that was pretending that tanking works.

[GimmeDat]

Nothing for something, that's not nearly as much of a tank move as trading core players for nothing. Not that Teague's going to develop into much of a player.

He's still only 21 though, funny to think. He definitely should of stayed in college a lot longer. We definitely didn't have the time to wait around 5 years only for him to become a serviceable backup.

I agree and I also still think with Thibs and Rose, PG is just a horrible position for a rookie, especially especially a 'project' rookie PG. Deck is stacked against them.

I guess you could've argued at that point that Rose would be a great mentor for him and that having Thibs from such a young age could drill you into great habits. I think with the benefit of retrospect we now know for certain that raw rookies aren't going to thrive here with Thibs as long as we're a competitive ball-club.

[GimmeDat]

I disagree about the tanking gets you no where argument. It's just essential that find a star level talent and then you maximise the core quickly, it's not an easy thing to do. OKC got KD and then within a few years were able to get Westbrook/Green/Ibaka, and from there they had enough to create a championship level roster through trade/further draft picks/etc. A lot's gone right for them, but the big blunder was the Perkins trade - they knew they were a defensive C away, and at the time Perkins was a key piece to Boston's defense, but he clearly got exposed as a pretty crappy player.

If one of MCW or Embiid becomes a star level player, they've got Noel and a top pick coming this season. A similar circumstance could arise, it's just about consolidating quickly. In the same way that Jeff Green got moved despite looknig like a promising player, Philly could move Noel for a different piece in a few years.

Even if they hadn't landed Westbrook, Ibaka, and Harden, just getting KD puts you in a great position. Sometimes you have to bottom out.

Yeah for sure, you need a star player. Maybe not necessarily a player of KD's calibre, but at minimum an All-Star level guy.

Interestingly, I look at the Hornet's and Davis and they've tried to put prime talent around him asap, and it's backfired to a point as well. Lots of talent, but they have compromised on fit to an extent, and by fasttracking the rebuilding process, they've capped the teams upside I believe.

You give them a few more years of sucking, AD has more young talent around him and you still have the cap-room to spend on guys. Team's need to find the right middle-ground to successfully tank.

[CousinOfDeath]

Draft position of best player on championship teams dating back to 1980:

1
1
1
9
13
13
5
1
5
1
3
1
1
1
1
1
3
3
3
1
1
3
3
3
2
2
1
1
6
1
6
Undrafted
1
6
1

Average without undrafteds = 3

end debate

[bledredwine]

I actually think that Teague is a really solid player. Mmk..bwa.... Brmkk.... .hfcbwAHAHAHAHAHAHA couldn't keep a straight face

[kyrv]

Nothing for something, that's not nearly as much of a tank move as trading core players for nothing. Not that Teague's going to develop into much of a player.

He's still only 21 though, funny to think. He definitely should of stayed in college a lot longer. We definitely didn't have the time to wait around 5 years only for him to become a serviceable backup.

I agree and I also still think with Thibs and Rose, PG is just a horrible position for a rookie, especially especially a 'project' rookie PG. Deck is stacked against them.

I guess you could've argued at that point that Rose would be a great mentor for him and that having Thibs from such a young age could drill you into great habits. I think with the benefit of retrospect we now know for certain that raw rookies aren't going to thrive here with Thibs as long as we're a competitive ball-club.

Yep I think that's the case (which makes sense for a contender) and I think Thibs would have less patience for a PG but maybe for him any project makes him break out into the cold sweats.

[kyrv]

Draft position of best player on championship teams dating back to 1980:

1
1
1
9
13
13
5
1
5
1
3
1
1
1
1
1
3
3
3
1
1
3
3
3
2
2
1
1
6
1
6
Undrafted
1
6
1

Average without undrafteds = 3

end debate

Then I would assume that a lot of those aren't with the team drafting them, right? Or jv's numbers would be different? If those are accurate, and I trust ya, I think the point was that the tanking team is not winning a title, which was the point of the exercise and entire reason for tanking.

restart debate

[HomoSapien]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources--sixers-in-talks-to-acquire-marquis-teague-205025220.html

"The Nets wouldn't receive anything of significance in return for Teague, sources said."

Even then, it feels like the Sixers are over-paying.

[johnnyvann840]

Draft position of best player on championship teams dating back to 1980:


Average without undrafteds = 3

end debate

It's not the end of the debate. Shaq skews the curve because he was a #1 with 5 but won none with the team who drafted him. So, the Lakes and Heat having him has nothing to do with tanking. And then there's Duncan, who is the anomaly of a player who has stayed with the same team for 17 years. And it's even debatable if he was the best player on the Spurs last year.

Of course you need to have a top player in the league, but the point is that tanking never gets anyone there. Those guys pop up once every decade or so. I promised myself I wasn't going to get into a tanking debate ever again, so I'm done with this. I'm not going to change your mind and youre not going to change mine.

Besides, the Bulls have their #1, generational talent. He needs to stay healthy. They also have a rare team full of very good players they drafted. I know the ESPN ranking is meaningless and all but the Bulls have four players in the top 70 that they drafted - and Rose should be top ten, maybe top five if he's healthy. Only OKC comes close to that.

[HomoSapien]

The Sixers are building a team in the best way possible and everyone is mad

Right? I don't get the anti-tank sentiment. If there's no way you can be truly competitive, go ahead and wipe the board clean and start over. It's not like that's some sure-fire way to hack the league. If I were a 6ers fan, I'd want them to do that, and I'd want there to be that option. Otherwise, what? They hope to luck into a mid-round draft pick, or sign a superstar? Good luck with that. At least you get potential with this route. There's at least legitimate hope.

People forget that we did the exact same thing in 1999.

[johnnyvann840]

The Sixers are building a team in the best way possible and everyone is mad

Right? I don't get the anti-tank sentiment. If there's no way you can be truly competitive, go ahead and wipe the board clean and start over. It's not like that's some sure-fire way to hack the league. If I were a 6ers fan, I'd want them to do that, and I'd want there to be that option. Otherwise, what? They hope to luck into a mid-round draft pick, or sign a superstar? Good luck with that. At least you get potential with this route. There's at least legitimate hope.

People forget that we did the exact same thing in 1999.

and how'd that work out? it led to half decade of miserable basketball that truly tested my allegiance as a fan.

[Indomitable]

The Sixers are building a team in the best way possible and everyone is mad

Right? I don't get the anti-tank sentiment. If there's no way you can be truly competitive, go ahead and wipe the board clean and start over. It's not like that's some sure-fire way to hack the league. If I were a 6ers fan, I'd want them to do that, and I'd want there to be that option. Otherwise, what? They hope to luck into a mid-round draft pick, or sign a superstar? Good luck with that. At least you get potential with this route. There's at least legitimate hope.

People forget that we did the exact same thing in 1999.

Still did not work

[HomoSapien]

Right? I don't get the anti-tank sentiment. If there's no way you can be truly competitive, go ahead and wipe the board clean and start over. It's not like that's some sure-fire way to hack the league. If I were a 6ers fan, I'd want them to do that, and I'd want there to be that option. Otherwise, what? They hope to luck into a mid-round draft pick, or sign a superstar? Good luck with that. At least you get potential with this route. There's at least legitimate hope.

People forget that we did the exact same thing in 1999.

and how'd that work out? it led to half decade of miserable basketball that truly tested my allegiance as a fan.

Don't blame you, just saying we did the same thing and avoided the criticism of "purposely tanking".

[Indomitable]

People forget that we did the exact same thing in 1999.

and how'd that work out? it led to half decade of miserable basketball that truly tested my allegiance as a fan.

Don't blame you, just saying we did the same thing and avoided the criticism of "purposely tanking".

Get 6 championships first it helps. But it was some terrible ball

[HomoSapien]

and how'd that work out? it led to half decade of miserable basketball that truly tested my allegiance as a fan.

Don't blame you, just saying we did the same thing and avoided the criticism of "purposely tanking".

Get 6 championships first it helps. But it was some terrible ball

It was terrible ball for sure, but the disgust people are showing should be consistent. If you're against tanking from a moral standpoint, then it shouldn't matter if a team is coming off of six championships.

[Mech Engineer]

Right? I don't get the anti-tank sentiment. If there's no way you can be truly competitive, go ahead and wipe the board clean and start over. It's not like that's some sure-fire way to hack the league. If I were a 6ers fan, I'd want them to do that, and I'd want there to be that option. Otherwise, what? They hope to luck into a mid-round draft pick, or sign a superstar? Good luck with that. At least you get potential with this route. There's at least legitimate hope.

People forget that we did the exact same thing in 1999.

and how'd that work out? it led to half decade of miserable basketball that truly tested my allegiance as a fan.

I'm with you. It is one thing for a franchise to have tanked in 1999 after winning 6 championships and being a big market. Imagine the same thing happening forever in a place like Memphis or Utah or Milwaukee. Those franchises just cannot survive. Philly might be able to get away because it is a big market but it sucks to be a fan of that team. As a owner of a business, you are probably going to lose a lot of money for the very small chance of somebody like Embiid becoming the next Duncan.

And, with the salary cap increases in the next 5 years, many winning teams might have big salary slots to recruit if anyone of those guys become good. It is not even an investment. I blame Silver/NBA for letting these franchises get away with this kind of tanking.

[johnnyvann840]

Philly is not only taking a gamble on talent, but they have some damaged goods that are also a gamble. It could work out, but they are really going all in banking on at least two prospects being Grand Slams and not having chronic health issues.

[Indomitable]

Don't blame you, just saying we did the same thing and avoided the criticism of "purposely tanking".

Get 6 championships first it helps. But it was some terrible ball

It was terrible ball for sure, but the disgust people are showing should be consistent. If you're against tanking from a moral standpoint, then it shouldn't matter if a team is coming off of six championships.

I am against it. I was a anti tanker for my team. Why be different for them?