Another minutes discussion.......

[Chi town]

Summary
1. Butler is playing too much because we don't have a backup

2. Niko should have played more than 18mins against POR when he was playing really well

Conclusion
1. Sign a wing bet that can play 10mpg and give Jimmy and MDJ a rest
2. Be patient with Niko as he is learning the D schemes and will get more burn going fwd

Good Thread!

[coldfish]

As another comment, let's talk Mirotic. Very, very impressive player. That said, it takes players months to pick up Thibs' defense. Most of the guys I have seen took until January to really get it and those guys weren't rookies who barely speak english. I see Mirotic screwing up all the time. Hell, Gasol is just starting to get it.

That's why Mirotic isn't playing much. Give it time. Mirotic is improving every game. I saw him have a good defensive play the last game. That isn't to say a block or a steal, but a complicated read where he got it right and positioned himself quickly and correctly.

I bet by February he has a pretty good handle on it.

Two things,

One, I agree that Mirotic is struggling with the defensive assignments but he's getting better and he seems like a guy who plays and then sees his mistakes and learns (i.e he feel in love with the pump fake, it started to hurt him, now he's been more aggressive in shooting when it comes to him). But if that's true that Mirotic is getting it and just needs reps, why deny him the reps and slow down the process? Not every game needs to be won. Sure, you want to get home court but the number of games directly cost by Niko getting more minutes couldn't possibly be that high. He still has an ability to impact a game when he plays (like the second quarter Friday night).

This is one fundamental disagreement I have with a lot of people: How players learn.

IMO, how players get better is getting on the court some, making mistakes, reviewing film and then practicing to correct the errors and then play again to get feedback. The biggest part of learning is film and practice time.

I do not think that a player can absorb an infinite amount of information. That is to say, a player isn't going to learn more over that cycle in 40 minutes of game time than he will in 15. If anything, I think that playing heavy minutes incorrectly actually will develop and ingrain bad habits. With particularly raw players like Doug, playing him at all was actually hurting him as his confidence was going in the toilet the more he played.

Two, the problem with Butler isn't so much the aggregate minutes but rather the fact that Jimmy plays heavy consecutive minutes. It's just not possible for Jimmy Butler to give you 100% in the last five minutes of a game when he's just played the last 19 minutes. Jimmy is shooting .424 in the fourth quarter compared to .505 in the other three. Sure that's potentially statistical noise but it also could be a sign of him being tired. And fun fact about Jimmy, he leads the league in average distance run (2.8 miles) by .3 miles. NO ONE in the league runs close to as much as Jimmy does a game.

In general, I would like to see Jimmy's minutes come down. I agree with you that the long stretches in particular are difficult. I am just pointing out that there is a significant cost to what most people here are suggesting. Just turning down Jimmy's minutes isn't the no brainer that everyone wants it to be.

......

What the Bulls really need is some blowouts. The schedule after about December 23rd is particularly friendly. It will be interesting to see how the Bulls react.

[Ron Johnson]

As another comment, let's talk Mirotic. Very, very impressive player. That said, it takes players months to pick up Thibs' defense. Most of the guys I have seen took until January to really get it and those guys weren't rookies who barely speak english. I see Mirotic screwing up all the time. Hell, Gasol is just starting to get it.

That's why Mirotic isn't playing much. Give it time. Mirotic is improving every game. I saw him have a good defensive play the last game. That isn't to say a block or a steal, but a complicated read where he got it right and positioned himself quickly and correctly.

I bet by February he has a pretty good handle on it.

Two things,

One, I agree that Mirotic is struggling with the defensive assignments but he's getting better and he seems like a guy who plays and then sees his mistakes and learns (i.e he feel in love with the pump fake, it started to hurt him, now he's been more aggressive in shooting when it comes to him). But if that's true that Mirotic is getting it and just needs reps, why deny him the reps and slow down the process? Not every game needs to be won. Sure, you want to get home court but the number of games directly cost by Niko getting more minutes couldn't possibly be that high. He still has an ability to impact a game when he plays (like the second quarter Friday night).

This is one fundamental disagreement I have with a lot of people: How players learn.

IMO, how players get better is getting on the court some, making mistakes, reviewing film and then practicing to correct the errors and then play again to get feedback. The biggest part of learning is film and practice time.

I do not think that a player can absorb an infinite amount of information. That is to say, a player isn't going to learn more over that cycle in 40 minutes of game time than he will in 15. If anything, I think that playing heavy minutes incorrectly actually will develop and ingrain bad habits. With particularly raw players like Doug, playing him at all was actually hurting him as his confidence was going in the toilet the more he played.

Two, the problem with Butler isn't so much the aggregate minutes but rather the fact that Jimmy plays heavy consecutive minutes. It's just not possible for Jimmy Butler to give you 100% in the last five minutes of a game when he's just played the last 19 minutes. Jimmy is shooting .424 in the fourth quarter compared to .505 in the other three. Sure that's potentially statistical noise but it also could be a sign of him being tired. And fun fact about Jimmy, he leads the league in average distance run (2.8 miles) by .3 miles. NO ONE in the league runs close to as much as Jimmy does a game.

In general, I would like to see Jimmy's minutes come down. I agree with you that the long stretches in particular are difficult. I am just pointing out that there is a significant cost to what most people here are suggesting. Just turning down Jimmy's minutes isn't the no brainer that everyone wants it to be.

......

What the Bulls really need is some blowouts. The schedule after about December 23rd is particularly friendly. It will be interesting to see how the Bulls react.

Nailed it again.

[Mech Engineer]

Another thing with the 4th quarter is usually there are a lot more timeouts taken plus the recent replays on controversial calls give players a lot of extra rest.

[DanTown8587]

As another comment, let's talk Mirotic. Very, very impressive player. That said, it takes players months to pick up Thibs' defense. Most of the guys I have seen took until January to really get it and those guys weren't rookies who barely speak english. I see Mirotic screwing up all the time. Hell, Gasol is just starting to get it.

That's why Mirotic isn't playing much. Give it time. Mirotic is improving every game. I saw him have a good defensive play the last game. That isn't to say a block or a steal, but a complicated read where he got it right and positioned himself quickly and correctly.

I bet by February he has a pretty good handle on it.

Two things,

One, I agree that Mirotic is struggling with the defensive assignments but he's getting better and he seems like a guy who plays and then sees his mistakes and learns (i.e he feel in love with the pump fake, it started to hurt him, now he's been more aggressive in shooting when it comes to him). But if that's true that Mirotic is getting it and just needs reps, why deny him the reps and slow down the process? Not every game needs to be won. Sure, you want to get home court but the number of games directly cost by Niko getting more minutes couldn't possibly be that high. He still has an ability to impact a game when he plays (like the second quarter Friday night).

This is one fundamental disagreement I have with a lot of people: How players learn.

IMO, how players get better is getting on the court some, making mistakes, reviewing film and then practicing to correct the errors and then play again to get feedback. The biggest part of learning is film and practice time.

I do not think that a player can absorb an infinite amount of information. That is to say, a player isn't going to learn more over that cycle in 40 minutes of game time than he will in 15. If anything, I think that playing heavy minutes incorrectly actually will develop and ingrain bad habits. With particularly raw players like Doug, playing him at all was actually hurting him as his confidence was going in the toilet the more he played.

Two, the problem with Butler isn't so much the aggregate minutes but rather the fact that Jimmy plays heavy consecutive minutes. It's just not possible for Jimmy Butler to give you 100% in the last five minutes of a game when he's just played the last 19 minutes. Jimmy is shooting .424 in the fourth quarter compared to .505 in the other three. Sure that's potentially statistical noise but it also could be a sign of him being tired. And fun fact about Jimmy, he leads the league in average distance run (2.8 miles) by .3 miles. NO ONE in the league runs close to as much as Jimmy does a game.

In general, I would like to see Jimmy's minutes come down. I agree with you that the long stretches in particular are difficult. I am just pointing out that there is a significant cost to what most people here are suggesting. Just turning down Jimmy's minutes isn't the no brainer that everyone wants it to be.

......

What the Bulls really need is some blowouts. The schedule after about December 23rd is particularly friendly. It will be interesting to see how the Bulls react.

I think we agree with how players learn, my only point was that Niko was going for 15-9 in 18 minutes while being +20 and being a spark to two runs, to sit here and say he earned only 18 minutes while you're playing Taj 44 minutes is crazy to me. The second half minute breakdown for the bigs

Taj: 24
Gasol: 15:35
Niko: 8:25

And since Niko himself is such a good defensive rebounder, the Bulls actually have a stronger defensive rating with him on the floor than off. The problem is Thibs does this to himself with his rotations. He plays Gasol/Gibson the entire third quarter so he needs to rest Pau a lot and now Niko plays a lot but you can't get Taj a rest without going to Nazr (something I'd probably do to start the fourth considering their lineup). When you're rotating three big men you have to sub more not less to keep balance.

I think you're missing the point on Jimmy: it's not like players are robots and give you exactly their production in the minutes they play. Jimmy playing 24 consecutive gives the Bulls LESS than if Jimmy got a break and was rested for the end of the game. If Jimmy got a slight break that was the last two minutes of the third+ the first four minutes of the fourth (so around 10-12 real minutes) then you'd get just as much production, if not more, from Jimmy because he was able to get some more energy back. Also, Jimmy could play the first 10 minutes of the third quarter a little harder because he knows that he is going to get a break.

[Eesee1]

As another comment, let's talk Mirotic. Very, very impressive player. That said, it takes players months to pick up Thibs' defense. Most of the guys I have seen took until January to really get it and those guys weren't rookies who barely speak english. I see Mirotic screwing up all the time. Hell, Gasol is just starting to get it.

That's why Mirotic isn't playing much. Give it time. Mirotic is improving every game. I saw him have a good defensive play the last game. That isn't to say a block or a steal, but a complicated read where he got it right and positioned himself quickly and correctly.

I bet by February he has a pretty good handle on it.

Two things,

One, I agree that Mirotic is struggling with the defensive assignments but he's getting better and he seems like a guy who plays and then sees his mistakes and learns (i.e he feel in love with the pump fake, it started to hurt him, now he's been more aggressive in shooting when it comes to him). But if that's true that Mirotic is getting it and just needs reps, why deny him the reps and slow down the process? Not every game needs to be won. Sure, you want to get home court but the number of games directly cost by Niko getting more minutes couldn't possibly be that high. He still has an ability to impact a game when he plays (like the second quarter Friday night).

Two, the problem with Butler isn't so much the aggregate minutes but rather the fact that Jimmy plays heavy consecutive minutes. It's just not possible for Jimmy Butler to give you 100% in the last five minutes of a game when he's just played the last 19 minutes. Jimmy is shooting .424 in the fourth quarter compared to .505 in the other three. Sure that's potentially statistical noise but it also could be a sign of him being tired. And fun fact about Jimmy, he leads the league in average distance run (2.8 miles) by .3 miles. NO ONE in the league runs close to as much as Jimmy does a game.

Careful now. I was told in a previous discussion that ending a quarter and starting the next one didn't count as consecutive minutes. I keep thinking about how Phil Jackson would structure MJ's rotations. He played 38-40 mins every game by coming out before the end of the 1st and 3rd quarters and sitting out the first couple minutes of the next quarter.

[Keller61]

People seem to think it's a big deal when a player plays a few minutes more than usual. The thing is, minutes played during a game are sort of like the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the total amount of physical activity that NBA players go through. No one sees all the "minutes" that they play during practice, or how much time they spend working out. Playing a few extra minutes in a game is made out to be much more significant than it actually is.

To me personally, this is more than about the wear and tear of a season. It's about in game energy. Being able to finish halves at a higher intensity level.

I think my biggest "beef" is, if Thibs uses the next man up approach and then actually makes the playoffs with that approach for injuries, why doesn't he then have the trust to play our backups against opposing backups?

I understand that he needs a better backup SF, but we do have depth creativity. See my rambling post earlier in this thread about minute breakdown by quarter. And that approach keeps Snell's butt glued to the bench.

When you consider opposing teams and who they have playing at the beginning of the 2nd and fourth quarter, I personally believe a lineup of Brooks, Hinrich, Dunleavy, Mirotic, and Gibson can hang for a 3-5 minute stretch.

I agree with that part. Minutes distribution is about getting optimal production from your team by playing fresh guys and allowing the starters to be at their best down the stretch. That's the reason why coaches don't just pick their best 5 and play them the whole game. It's not that they can't play the whole game; it just wouldn't be ideal for the team.

I just think that the "wear and tear" aspect of the minutes debate is overstated. If a certain situation calls for Jimmy Butler to play 45 minutes instead of 40, that's not a big deal. He might be a bit more winded after the game than he usually is, but it's not going to have long-term consequences.

[kingkirk]

The point is that the Bulls are holding players out of games and practices entirely. A lot. I virtually guarantee that if this year Butler is starting to accumulate nicks and small injuries, the Bulls will pull him out of the rotation like what they are doing with Noah. That gives a player far more opportunity to rest than dropping his minutes from 39 to 36 or something.

The only guy playing a lot of minutes is Butler. We all know that when and if Noah and Gibson play for a while, Gasol's minutes will drop. The real issue here is that Doug and Snell suck donkey balls and would be costing the Bulls a lot of wins if they played significant minutes forcing Butler to play.

Is a player sitting out due to being hurt or carrying something constitute 'holding' out someone, or is it just doing your due diligence?

Holding someone out is when they're healthy and you give them the night off, like Dallas do with back to backs on occasion with Dirk, or like resting a star at the end of the season or going full Pop and holding out guys throughout the season strategically.

Butler is already carrying issues. He has the thumb and shoulder which he has already banged up. They will only 'hold out' guys who can't go because they're hurt and need to heal, not to give them an extra days break just because.

[WinFirst]

i wish snell was capable of stepping up like jimmy was in his 2nd year, but he just isn't. snell is turning out to be yet another bust draft pick by garbage foreman and company

[kuly1990]

i wish snell was capable of stepping up like jimmy was in his 2nd year, but he just isn't. snell is turning out to be yet another bust draft pick by garbage foreman and company

im not saying he is capable, but he played like minute last game, and he got fouled on drive that wasnt called, what could he do, if you play him dont play him minute give him something, and make a play for him, when he is in, or dont bring him in the game at all...

[PrimzyBulls81]

Coach Thibs is a confidence killer for players like McDermott, Snell, Moore.. he pulls them after one mistake and doesnt play them a lot,or not at all. With coaching like that,you cant have a deep roster with chemistry.

Butler 36min per game,enough
Gasol, Rose, Noah 30-34 min per game enough
Gibson 26-28min
MDJ 25min
Mirotic 20
Brooks 15-20
Kirk 15
Snell 10
McDermott 10 (when back)
Moore 6-8

Rose 30, Brooks 12-14, Moore 4 -6 - 48
Butler 30, Snell 8, Kirk 10 - 48
MDJ 25, McDermott 10, Butler 4-5, Snell 2-3
Gibson 26-28, Mirotic 18-20
Gasol, Noah 25 - 30

something like this.. but not every game,Moore can play every second game.. Snell 4 of 5 at least with 10min per game ... and so on! They have to play and learn the game,system.. god forbid, Jimmy and maybe Taj goes down for a longer strech.. Thibs is a stubborn ass and I really dont like him anymore.

[AirP.]

Sorry for ranting, but I'm an analytical guy that believes this stuff works over a long season. Analytics is not everything, but complimented by good coaching and schemes, in my opinion, is the recipe for success.

Hard to believe that Chicago's last championship had...
MJ... 34 year old playing 38.8 minutes for 82 regular season games.
Pippen... a 32 year old playing 37.5 minutes for 44 regular season games.
Rodman... a 36 year old playing 35.7 minutes for 80 regular season games.

And what was Popovich thinking running Tim Duncan down 81 games at 39.3 minutes a night while working towards their 2nd Championship! Up till age 33 mastermind Popovich played Tim Duncan 12 straight years and averaged 36.7 minutes a game in the regular season.

[Rerisen]

Sorry for ranting, but I'm an analytical guy that believes this stuff works over a long season. Analytics is not everything, but complimented by good coaching and schemes, in my opinion, is the recipe for success.

Hard to believe that Chicago's last championship had...
MJ... 34 year old playing 38.8 minutes for 82 regular season games.
Pippen... a 32 year old playing 37.5 minutes for 44 regular season games.
Rodman... a 36 year old playing 35.7 minutes for 80 regular season games.

And what was Popovich thinking running Tim Duncan down 81 games at 39.3 minutes a night while working towards their 2nd Championship! Up till age 33 mastermind Popovich played Tim Duncan 12 straight years and averaged 36.7 minutes a game in the regular season.

Thibs loves to throw out those MJ and Pip examples and talk about how Phil did it. But it fails to appreciate just how gimpy and injury prone most of this current team has been. MJ was a physical freak and Rodman a workout one. Pippen of course also a superior athlete, though he ended up missing more games later in his career too.

Thibodeau at times seems tone deaf to guys clearly not being 100% on the floor, nursing nagging injuries and just keeps running them near 40 minutes. The minutes he gave back to back to a 34 year old Gasol the last 2 games was just moronic. It's no wonder Gasol's production is starting to plummet. He might be a broken shell by the playoffs if Thibs doesn't lay off.

[AirP.]

Thibs loves to throw out those MJ and Pip examples and talk about how Phil did it. But it fails to appreciate just how gimpy and injury prone most of this current team has been. MJ was a physical freak and Rodman a workout one. Pippen of course also a superior athlete, though he ended up missing more games later in his career too.

Thibodeau at times seems tone deaf to guys clearly not being 100% on the floor, nursing nagging injuries and just keeps running them near 40 minutes. The minutes he gave back to back to a 34 year old Gasol the last 2 games was just moronic. It's no wonder Gasol's production is starting to plummet. He might be a broken shell by the playoffs if Thibs doesn't lay off.

How many nagging injuries do you think you don't hear about that people play with? You play being hurt, you don't play injured.

Personally, I think practices take more out of the players than actual games do.

[poolshark52]

I'm sorry, and I know I'm in opposition to most posters here. And, I'm not going to post any stats, or any evidence whatsoever, but I'm tired of hearing about how we play guys too may minutes. Tonight, a 38 y.o. Tim Duncan played 48. Sometimes, you just have to win. I just think that you have many players that can play lots of minutes and we make way too big of thing about it. I never see evidence in any of these posts that playing so many minutes contributes to injuries. I for one, believe that certain players get injured and others don't but I'm not sure that i see a real correlation between minutes and injuries. I believe that more than anything else, it is is genetics. Some players can play lots of minutes without getting injured, and others get injured really regardless of minutes played. And, more often than not, it has nothing to do with how many minutes they have played. Star players play big minutes. If they can't, they aren't really stars. Sorry for the rant, but I'm tired of hearing about this. We have a lot of depth, but sometimes we need our stars to play. If Derrick gets back to at least playing 36 minutes a game, it will change the minute distribution for all.

[jl342323]

Tim Duncan played 48

Seriously? you made this because timmy played 48 minutes in 3 overtime game?

He played 33 minutes in regulation. and he played all 15 minutes in 3 overtime periods. This minute total isnt even surprising considering no one in their right mind would sub out timmy in the overtime.

Thibs gets criticism b/c he overplays guys who are injury prone. Nba season is a marathon not a sprint. He has to know how to pace these guys.

[poolshark52]

Tim Duncan played 48

Seriously? you made this because timmy played 48 minutes in 3 overtime game?

He played 33 minutes in regulation. and he played all 15 minutes in 3 overtime periods. This minute total isnt even surprising considering no one in their right mind would sub out timmy in the overtime.

Thibs gets criticism b/c he overplays guys who are injury prone.

Yes, seriously. I"ve been following pro basketball since 1970. Some players can play a lot of minutes and others can't. When you have watched as much as me, you can make real statements not based on any stats. Everyone bitches if Pau or Taj or Jimmy play that much in overtime games or multiple overtime games. I see it here all the time. You don't? Or do you read a different board from me? All I was saying is some players can do it and others cant. Those that can are most typically the stars.

[poolshark52]

Part of being a true star player is playing big minutes night in, night out, every night. I hate this constant bi**hing about minutes. If you are a true star, you play big minutes every night. That is what being a star is all about. Its not one game, its every game. Jordan did it. Pippen did it. That is why they are top 50 of all time. There is way too much coddling in today's game. I know many disagree, but that is the cold stone truth.

[poolshark52]

Tim Duncan played 48

Seriously? you made this because timmy played 48 minutes in 3 overtime game?

He played 33 minutes in regulation. and he played all 15 minutes in 3 overtime periods. This minute total isnt even surprising considering no one in their right mind would sub out timmy in the overtime.

Thibs gets criticism b/c he overplays guys who are injury prone. Nba season is a marathon not a sprint. He has to know how to pace these guys.

And one more thing, I said, in the very preface (hope that you know what preface means) that I'm in opposition to most posters here. And, I don't think they should be playing when we are 20 up in the 4th quarter. But, stars play big minutes. Otherwise, you lose.

[Rerisen]

- Thread merged due to same topic already on the front page