Thibs basic and frustrating offense

[johnnyvann840]

Watch the Blackhawks move the puck around in the offensive zone.. they are like the Spurs of the NHL. Such a beautiful thing to watch. The Bulls should watch them for inspiration.

[Rerisen]

I don't think most teams have more than a couple players who would fit that description of being able to drive, and the Bulls have 4. Rose, Butler, Mirotic and Brooks.

Right few teams do, but few teams are capable of winning a title either. Those that do generally have several mutli-threat players and more important, can play them together in the same unit. Like Lebron saying it felt like SA had 4 PGs on the floor in the Finals.

The Bulls 4 guys there, 2 of them are backups, Brooks plays behind our number 1 option and isn't a good fit with him. Also Brooks isn't that good at passing for a PG, the easiest of the three options. And Mirotic is our 4th big, relegated to 8 mpg if he's lucky when we're healthy, and rarely gets to play with Rose, where he could do all kinds of damage spacing the floor and being in a 2 man game.

The key to the team this year, imo, is turning Butler into a key cog, as important as Rose or Gasol. Right now when Rose has played, Butler is relegating back to a minor option. We need him more in a Wade (Heatles) high usage off ball role.

[CharityStripe34]

The key to the team this year, imo, is turning Butler into a key cog, as important as Rose or Gasol. Right now when Rose has played, Butler is relegating back to a minor option. We need him more in a Wade (Heatles) high usage off ball role.

I agree 100%. Butler needs some high-screen action with Rose and he needs more plays designed to get him the ball in areas of the floor where he can do damage and have clear options. Too often when Rose is on the court he's hesitant. I'm not sure why that is, but he needs to be more assertive. Isiah Thomas said it best on an episode of Open Court. If you want to go into the game and pass, you have to have the threat of scoring. If Rose asserts himself offensively early in the game instead of trying to do the Magic/LeBron "feel out the game" stuff, those passing lanes open up leaving guys like Dunleavy, Butler and Gasol open looks. All three of them can make (at the very least) a mid-range jumper.

This is the problem when early in the game they simply try to pound Gasol into a brick wall in the low-post instead of getting everyone involved in the possession. We desperately need some high-screen action in the offense as well, because I think we're much more deadly a team when we run high-screens with Rose. Especially when the screener is Gasol or Butler (and hopefully sooner rather than later, Mirotic).

[gstephanopulos]

Statement 'Thibbs is a great defensive coach but not good offensivly' is wrong. I hate how this become one of the most popular go-to statements every time we struggle.

Offense this year though it's has not been consistent, is mostly improved and that's because of the better offensive talent that we have compared to last year. It's all about personel. Like last year all we can hear after losses was : 'Thibs is not good offensive coach, he only cares about defense'.

Just look at how succesful point-guards are in Thibs system.

This years team is struggling on offense mostly because there are a lot of new faces and new lineups that haven't figured out what is working for them and what's not. Since the begining of the season and mostly for a couple of latest game consistency have improved. It's also a question of execution. You have plays like in that Atlanta game in which we set up MDJ for a perfect 3pt corner and he misses it. I don't know why that has been happening but stuff like that keeps making it harder to win those games.

What this team really needs is couple of weeks of fully healthy lineup, not a offensive coordinator or any other BS so often mentioned here.

[Ice Man]

Just look at how succesful point-guards are in Thibs system.

The irony being that Thibs cuts them loose to do what they wish, while he is constantly barking instructions at the other players.

That said, I agree that the problem is more of bad Derrick, injuries, and the personnel getting to know each other than it is of Thibs. The only real quarrel I have of the system is the insistence in starting each game the same, bad way -- pounding the ball to the #4. Last year it was Boozer, this year it is Pau. Enough already.

[coldfish]

A little more ranting on "read and react".

Most of us have played football, at least with our friends in the yard. I'll use a football analogy. When we are in the sandlot, the QB tells his first receiver: Go out 5 steps and turn left. He tells his second guy: Go long.

When the play happens, those two receivers do that regardless of what the defense does.

When you get to the NFL, a lot of patterns are "read" patterns. The play will call for a receiver to go out 15 yards and break based on where the defense is. If the safety is deep and the coverage is on the outside shoulder, cut in. If its on the inside shoulder, cut out. If there is no safety, go deep. When you see a QB throw to completely empty ground, its usually because the receiver "read" something different than the QB. Regardless, the play changes based on what the defense is doing.

........

In the NBA, that's effectively what Thibs is talking about with "read and react". All 5 people on offense move, pass, dribble and cut based on where the ball is and what the defense is doing. The play itself is a whole bunch of options. How it plays out on the court is based on the decisions made by the players on it.

What I see with the Bulls in many of their sets is that they don't know the play by heart. When it gets to a decision point, they take time to think and frequently make the wrong read. That's lack of practice, lack of coaching and possibly low basketball IQ.

Specifically on the driving: Players are supposed to drive into open space. That's what SA does. The Bulls have Rose, Butler, Brooks and Dunleavey who can drive into open space and make an open shot. The ball just has to move quick and players need to be decisive. No offense wants a guy like Dunleavey driving into a double team.

[Concept Coop]

If only we could have a random RealGM poster run the offense...

[Ice Man]

If only we could have a random RealGM poster run the offense...

Give ball to Derrick, say "make something happen." If that fails, give ball to Brooks, say "make something happen." In practice, turn to the assistant coaches and say "run offensive sets."

I'd do fine.

[Concept Coop]

Cowherd was talking about Harbaugh recently. There's no denying he's a great coach; he came in and Year 2 and Year 3 were markedly better than Year 1. But when you get past having improved to a good team, can they finish the job and become a title team? Sometimes even the best coaches just can't get it done.

Cowherd is an idiot. Harbaugh was one questionable penalty away from winning a Super Bowl.

Thibs has had one playoff series with a healthy Derrick Rose. One. A bit early to start suggesting he "can't get it done", no?

[Ctownbulls]

Thibs is one of the best coaches in the league. Basically every other team would be dying to have him as their head coach. Stop complaining already.

[Ctownbulls]

Cowherd was talking about Harbaugh recently. There's no denying he's a great coach; he came in and Year 2 and Year 3 were markedly better than Year 1. But when you get past having improved to a good team, can they finish the job and become a title team? Sometimes even the best coaches just can't get it done.

Cowherd is an idiot. Harbaugh was one questionable penalty away from winning a Super Bowl.

Thibs has had one playoff series with a healthy Derrick Rose. One. A bit early to start suggesting he "can't get it done", no?

He had 3 series and won 2 of them. I don't want to hear about Derrick Rose having a strained ankle in those 2 series. Everyone plays through injuries during the playoffs and he dropped 44 on Atlanta with that ankle. That injury was not the reason they didn't beat Miami.

[Concept Coop]

He had 3 series and won 2 of them. I don't want to hear about Derrick Rose having a strained ankle in those 2 series. Everyone plays through injuries during the playoffs and he dropped 44 on Atlanta with that ankle. That injury was not the reason they didn't beat Miami.

Excuse me. Playoff runs; not series.

[coldfish]

Cowherd was talking about Harbaugh recently. There's no denying he's a great coach; he came in and Year 2 and Year 3 were markedly better than Year 1. But when you get past having improved to a good team, can they finish the job and become a title team? Sometimes even the best coaches just can't get it done.

Cowherd is an idiot. Harbaugh was one questionable penalty away from winning a Super Bowl.

Thibs has had one playoff series with a healthy Derrick Rose. One. A bit early to start suggesting he "can't get it done", no?

He had 3 series and won 2 of them. I don't want to hear about Derrick Rose having a strained ankle in those 2 series. Everyone plays through injuries during the playoffs and he dropped 44 on Atlanta with that ankle. That injury was not the reason they didn't beat Miami.

I think Miami being better than Chicago was the primary reason Chicago didn't win. That said, the Bulls had a lead late in 4 of the 5 games. A lack of experience really didn't help the Bulls much and I include Thibs in that.

[Ice Man]

I think Miami being better than Chicago was the primary reason Chicago didn't win. That said, the Bulls had a lead late in 4 of the 5 games. A lack of experience really didn't help the Bulls much and I include Thibs in that.

If he erred, it was minor. The only playoff series that Thibs botched, from my view, was the Wizards last year. But even then, the bigger problem was Jo's knee. It generally does come down to the players.

[Mech Engineer]

Not that this article is the final answer but this is how Paxson, JVG all think about Thibs's offensive mind

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-06-03/sports/ct-spt-0604-bulls-chicago--20100603_1_bulls-bright-offensive-mind-chairman-jerry-reinsdorf

According to sources familiar with the interview, the Bulls came away impressed by Thibodeau's work ethic, creative offensive ideas and ideas for player development.

In a recent interview with the Tribune, Jeff Van Gundy, who hired Thibodeau as his lead assistant during both his Knicks and Rockets stints, praised Thibodeau's all-around ability.

"This idea that he's this defensive guru, to me, does him a disservice," Van Gundy said. "People try to make him out to be one-dimensional, which couldn't be further from the truth. He has a very bright offensive mind."

Look at what's happening with DJ Augustine's Detroit team with supposedly an all-star/superstar type Center in Drummond to go with him. And, they have this guy called Stan Van Gundy who took a team to the finals. It is so tough to have consistent success in the NBA.

Does Thibs have flaws. Yes, definitely. But, to call his offense simple, basic or an iso-coach is really an insult.

[Concept Coop]

That said, I agree that the problem is more of bad Derrick, injuries, and the personnel getting to know each other than it is of Thibs. The only real quarrel I have of the system is the insistence in starting each game the same, bad way -- pounding the ball to the #4. Last year it was Boozer, this year it is Pau. Enough already.

I disagree with this. I think our offense is best when Pau is putting up shots, and it makes sense to start early. Of course he has to make them, and lately, he hasn't been often enough. But I think Noah coming back will reduce his minutes some and keep him fresh.

[Mech Engineer]

That said, I agree that the problem is more of bad Derrick, injuries, and the personnel getting to know each other than it is of Thibs. The only real quarrel I have of the system is the insistence in starting each game the same, bad way -- pounding the ball to the #4. Last year it was Boozer, this year it is Pau. Enough already.

I disagree with this. I think our offense is best when Pau is putting up shots, and it makes sense to start early. Of course he has to make them, and lately, he hasn't been often enough. But I think Noah coming back will reduce his minutes some and keep him fresh.

Pau is the best offensive option after Derrick. When Derrick doesn't want to drive, it makes sense to use Pau's energy, skills and give him the ball. You have to use Pau and Thibs/Pau probably discuss what he likes to do and where he is comfortable and run with it rather than what we think should be run.

[Ice Man]

I disagree with this. I think our offense is best when Pau is putting up shots

Sure, it's good to get volume for Pau in the low post, but don't mix it up. Don't let defenses enjoy the luxury of knowing what we will do for the first 5 minutes of each game, so that they can plan against it.

[Concept Coop]

Pau is the best offensive option after Derrick. When Derrick doesn't want to drive, it makes sense to use Pau's energy, skills and give him the ball. You have to use Pau and Thibs/Pau probably discuss what he likes to do and where he is comfortable and run with it rather than what we think should be run.

And the gap between Pau and #3 isn't close. Buckets has been a monster and is extremely efficient, but he's not built to have an offense run through him. Taj can do it for stretches, but doesn't have the size/length. Niko has shown flashes, but it's not consistent.

[Stratmaster]

Not that this article is the final answer but this is how Paxson, JVG all think about Thibs's offensive mind

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-06-03/sports/ct-spt-0604-bulls-chicago--20100603_1_bulls-bright-offensive-mind-chairman-jerry-reinsdorf

According to sources familiar with the interview, the Bulls came away impressed by Thibodeau's work ethic, creative offensive ideas and ideas for player development.

In a recent interview with the Tribune, Jeff Van Gundy, who hired Thibodeau as his lead assistant during both his Knicks and Rockets stints, praised Thibodeau's all-around ability.

"This idea that he's this defensive guru, to me, does him a disservice," Van Gundy said. "People try to make him out to be one-dimensional, which couldn't be further from the truth. He has a very bright offensive mind."

Look at what's happening with DJ Augustine's Detroit team with supposedly an all-star/superstar type Center in Drummond to go with him. And, they have this guy called Stan Van Gundy who took a team to the finals. It is so tough to have consistent success in the NBA.

Does Thibs have flaws. Yes, definitely. But, to call his offense simple, basic or an iso-coach is really an insult.

That article is almost 5 years old and is talking about the interview process. And when people say "it does him a disservice...he has a bright offensive mind", that is there way of saying "he isn't that bad". I wnder what those same people would say, if you could get an honest answer, about the Bulls utilization of their offensive threats over the last 4 seasons?

Thibs is a great head coach, and the fact that many of us think he could do a better job of utilizing his player's offensive skills doesn't mean we think otherwise. I don't understand why over the last 4 season Thibs, the front office, and we fans, would be so against getting a better offensive mind sitting on the bench next to Thibs.