Time To End The Hinrich Era. - MERGED

[musiqsoulchild]

Paxson said that about Kirk on the radio, donwplaying meddling with Thibs coaching.

But to me, it clearly is meddling. Kirk Hinrich does not have an injury, nor coming off something serious like Rose or Noah.

He is just an old veteran player. For Paxson to just 'see' that Kirk played better with low minutes last year and dictate to Thibs he cannot be used over that is a slap in the face to Tom.

Its not meddling with Thibs. Its the way of player management going forward.

When you have your core group of 4 making close to 60 Million, you can only add impactful pieces by letting another lever go ( age, health etc.). Thats how you can get a high performance team on value deals.

Since the Bulls will always prefer signing players with lack of physical healh ( Gasol, Kirk) over players with lack of mental health ( Lance for example), minutes restriction will be part of the new formula.

Even Kirk said at the time of signing that he was looking to go all put in less minutes. He looked like he was doing exactly that yeaterday. Even Noah. They were having fun going ALL OUT in a few minutes rather than plodding their way through treacle for longer.

I am glad that this is the policy in place where Jen + Thibs + FO all get their collective heads together and the FO sets the direction. Its not meddling; its the future of how Bulls basketball is gonna look until Rose retires.

This is one of the reasons I'd love to see Gasol play less long stretches; it's almost like he's sometime saving himself because he knows he needs to go for another four-five minutes.

You are spot on.

Its the reason we saw Nazr for a good 10 minutes against the slower frontline of Cleveland.

Dallas has a more agile, athletic frontline...so Nazr would have been wasted. When you have 6 big men at your disposal, no point overplaying the injured one ( Noah) or the old one ( Gasol).

Use Niko. Use Taj. Use Nazr and Cameron when the player/game context shows up. Thibs is being a lot more flexible this season and thats a good thing.

[TheJordanRule]

Why would you want DJ and Brooks? Hinrich has a specific role on this team, one which none of those other players fill:

1. He is a combo Guard who can play either position
2. He is a specialist in two areas. Defense and setting up the offense.
3. He can start at either Guard spot if he is forced to
4. He offsets the fact that there is no other PG on the Bulls who can play defense at a high level.
5. He is a veteran presence for the younger players. Multiple players have talked about learning from Hinrich. One of the players who wanted him here is named Derrick Rose.

As far as him not coming cheap, he had higher offers. That is the definition of coming cheap.

A fan who doesn't understand all aspects of building a basketball team can also come off as a goon. Don't be that guy.

Forget Brooks. He is terribly inconsistent. Brooks just looks consistent since he's competing with Hinrich. DJ was an absolute beast last season and after another off season with us would have been even better this year. If we had DJ in the fold we could have signed an actual backup SG to backup our SG. Kirk's overly praised status as a combo guard is irrelevant since he plays both backup SG and backup PG at a below average level even for a 2nd stringer. There are tons of veterans in this league signed for the league minimum who can play defense and "start if they're forced to." Which means these milquetoast positives are once again irrelevant.

The fact that some donkey in a business suit tried to make a play for Kirk and offered Kirk more $$$ doesn't make Kirk's contract cheap. Otherwise Carlos Boozer was "the definition of coming cheap" too. Spending the RMLE on a guy who's only worth the league minimum is not a sound move.

D.J. was not an absolute beast last season. He shot the ball very inconsistently. His FG% last season was 41.5% (41.9% after he joined the Bulls). That is not very good. It seems better because Hinrich shot 39%. But on its own, 41.5% is not a good FG percentage. And he was horrible defensively. And to suggest he'd be better for CHI this season makes no sense, because he has always been an inconsistent player. He is not having a good season for the Pistons, although he has played better of late. I appreciate all D.J. did for the team, because his scoring bailed the team out on numerous occasions and he was a good playmaker. But let's not make him out to be something he wasn't.

It's absurd that you would try to attack DJ's shooting. DJ got to the line almost twice as much as Kirk (3.2 fta per game versus 1.7 fta per game), and he was deadly from the stripe, shooting 88 percent on the season against Kirk's 76 percent. The difference in three point shots converted is equally astounding, since DJ took a high volume of 3s to hit 41 percent of his shots from deep against Kirk's awful 35 percent conversion rate. DJ's shooting percentages are strong when you consider that of his 11.4 FGA per game, 5.2 were threes. And DJ was a brilliant passer, averaging 5 assists per game in just 30 minutes on less than 2 turnovers-- something Kirk and Brooks can't do to this day. After all, Kirk never does anything more than throw the typical system pass (3.9 assists per game last year, 2.7 this year) while Brooks sucks balls at not turning the ball over and rarely has a clue how to distribute. Considering all this, there's no choice except to realize that D.J. was an absolute beast in comparison. He didn't shoot 50 % every game but no one in this league does. He posted a PER of 16.8 on the season while coming off the bench. For a backup guard, you can't ask for more than that. If Kirk was anywhere near a PER of 16.8 no one on this board would say a word, much less create a thread dedicated to the fact that Googles sucks and needs less minutes. Put down your rose-colored Goggles and recognize that signing some of the worst league minimum type players around to multi-million dollar yearly deals is not the height of greatness or wisdom.

[stl705]

Anyone who has watched Kirk the last two years has seen a very sharp decline since his last stint with us. As "smart" and "basketball-savvy" as he is supposed to be, seems like he makes way too many foolish plays such as bad fouls, terrible defense (can't stay with any guard in the league), not too mention the defense GIVES him as many open shots as he wants to take.

Did anyone see the Spurs game where all 5 defenders were on the right half of the basket and Kirk was all alone on the left side? It's no coincidence, teams will gladly let Kirk take 5 or 6 open 3s a game, because he can only make 1 or 2 of them.

This isn't college, this isn't the D-league. This is supposedly the best players in the world, and most competitive basketball league in the world. I have absolutely no idea why Thibs plays Hinrich outside of being pigeon-holed because he doesn't have many viable options. Still, guess I don't see the practices, but during games.... E'twan Moore has been WAY better than Hinrich... and its not a close comparison.

[Mech Engineer]

I think Hinrich is too easily labeled as either dumb or coach's smart son. IMO, he plays too aggressively and when he doesn't have the athleticism he had before....his mind tells him he can do something but his body doesn't execute it. Maybe he was just a tad quicker before where he could frustrate guys like Kyrie, Wade etc...

The most important things to monitor are his minutes and rest between games. The Bulls need to do a better job of using him with the right combination. There is no doubt he is playing way too much for reasons beyond his or Thibs's control.

[Stratmaster]

Anyone who has watched Kirk the last two years has seen a very sharp decline since his last stint with us. As "smart" and "basketball-savvy" as he is supposed to be, seems like he makes way too many foolish plays such as bad fouls, terrible defense (can't stay with any guard in the league), not too mention the defense GIVES him as many open shots as he wants to take.

Did anyone see the Spurs game where all 5 defenders were on the right half of the basket and Kirk was all alone on the left side? It's no coincidence, teams will gladly let Kirk take 5 or 6 open 3s a game, because he can only make 1 or 2 of them.

This isn't college, this isn't the D-league. This is supposedly the best players in the world, and most competitive basketball league in the world. I have absolutely no idea why Thibs plays Hinrich outside of being pigeon-holed because he doesn't have many viable options. Still, guess I don't see the practices, but during games.... E'twan Moore has been WAY better than Hinrich... and its not a close comparison.

The bolded parts above are what are utterly foolish and terrible. They show you either are just hating, or you don't have a clue about what is going on on the basketball court. I'm guessing the first.

1. Hinrich is the best perimeter defender not named Butler the Bulls have. I guess it could just be that from a defensive standpoint ALL of the Bulls guards belong in the D-League, but their record defensively would indicate otherwise. People who understand basketball realize that when playing a Guard defensively, and that Guard starts moving with the dribble, the goal is to push them toward the outside and the baseline. In other words, no clear lane to the left or right side of the rim, and move him towards where your help is. The baseline is also "help" because, well, he can't go any further than there, it is an area where passes other than back to the perimeter are congested and contested, and shooting from behind the basket tends to be low percentage.If you do that, and the help doesn't come, that's not on the Guard.

2. The Hinrich detractors will say no one bothers to guard him, and then cackle when his shots get blocked. The two can't co-exist. Teams give Hinrich the same room outside they give any Guard who isn't an elite 3 point shooter. They have been giving Rose way more room that Kirk to shoot although that is going to start to change now that Rose has basically shown that while he isn't a 3 point stud, he is going to hit them if you leave him wide open. And you say Hinrich will only make 1 or two of 6 3pFGA. you need to check your stats.

3. Moore> Hinrich and it's not even a close comparison. I don;t think I really even have to say anything about that. It stands as insane without any retort.

[TheJordanRule]

E'twan Moore has been WAY better than Hinrich... and its not a close comparison.

Moore> Hinrich and it's not even a close comparison. I don;t think I really even have to say anything about that. It stands as insane without any retort.

Hinrich is coming in at 7.8 PER which is considerably lower than Moore's 10.2 PER, so the idea that Moore has been better has at least some legs to stand on. My own personal view, on the other hand, is that Moore and Hinrich are a fairly close comparison. The only difference is that Moore is younger and could improve, while Hinrich has been tested and has long proven himself a turd.

[unknownnewbie]

Anyone who has watched Kirk the last two years has seen a very sharp decline since his last stint with us. As "smart" and "basketball-savvy" as he is supposed to be, seems like he makes way too many foolish plays such as bad fouls, terrible defense (can't stay with any guard in the league), not too mention the defense GIVES him as many open shots as he wants to take.

Did anyone see the Spurs game where all 5 defenders were on the right half of the basket and Kirk was all alone on the left side? It's no coincidence, teams will gladly let Kirk take 5 or 6 open 3s a game, because he can only make 1 or 2 of them.

This isn't college, this isn't the D-league. This is supposedly the best players in the world, and most competitive basketball league in the world. I have absolutely no idea why Thibs plays Hinrich outside of being pigeon-holed because he doesn't have many viable options. Still, guess I don't see the practices, but during games.... E'twan Moore has been WAY better than Hinrich... and its not a close comparison.

E'Twaun Moore has not been way better. His PER is not good, either. He has shot the ball at a better rate than Hinrich (which is the only reason why his PER is better), but Hinrich is better at running the offense and is the better defender, if for no other reason than he makes plays on defense (he gets a fair amount of steals & will block the occasional shot), & disrupts the offense. Moore, though he plays solid defense, doesn't really make plays on that end of the floor.

As for opponents leaving Kirk open, it's not like they are going to pay any more defensive attention to Moore.

[barcodekiller]

I started following basketball and the Bulls the same year they drafted Kirk (I'm only 22) so he'll always be apart of my Chicago Bulls memories. It's sad seeing his decline, since he can't even defend like he used to but thats expected with age and he was never a great offensive player.

[ChicagoStrong]

Hinrich needs to GTFO

[RastaBull]

I'm still happy Kirk is on the Bulls team. He has valuable role on the roster.

BUT IT FLOORS ME that he gets the extended minutes he does. At this point in his career he should NOT be getting more than 20-22 mpg. He absolutely should NOT be the first guard off the bench. His offense is downright putrid in the half-court. Rims or worse yet airs balls, everything. He can't get separation from anyone on the perimeter and as a result if he's controlling the point the ball does not move quickly.

He does use the screen well as a point. I believe he still has an overall high IQ (we just end up remembering the bad plays more). His overall defense has totally slipped, BUT he brings savvy and familiarity with certain players and should def be used in several key matchups. Kirk should be the 5th guard, defensive specialist (specific especially to certain players he has a history of defending). Instead he's being played as our 3rd guard.

Like, Dwayne Wade. He's always put in a good fight against Wade and he knows Wade's tricks inside and out. But in a game like one against the Heat, that is his purpose, defend Wade. And therefore, any minutes he's on the court and Wade isn't, is a complete waste and detriment to the rest of our play.

DJ Kennedy would be nice if it meant Thibs could nightly use Brooks and Kennedy as 3rd and 4th guards. Of course that won't happen, because Thibs won't give a new guy minutes and he'll ride or die with Kirk. Our best hope is that SNell can really take advantage of these minutes recently, so that when Dunleavy returns Thibs might be convinced Snell can be that first SG/wing off the bench instead of Kirk.

[logical_art]

Why don't reporters ask Thibs about why Hinrich gets so many minutes?

[SpinninHouse]

The Hinrich Calvary died today. I want apologies from anyone who defended him this year.

[sicko]

He is AWFUL! That man should not be in the NBA anymore. I get it, he is the "Blue Collar Fan Favorite" but he SUCKS NOW! I would rather see Moore get more playing time than Hinrich!

[Sugarless]

I've been a long time Hinrich fan, but he's just not offering anything to the team right now other than terrible defense and even worse offense. He shouldn't be ahead of Moore on the pecking order right now, let alone playing significant minutes.

[MC3]

Why don't reporters ask Thibs about why Hinrich gets so many minutes?

Because Bulls own Chicago's media according to JVG. And if Thibs was asked by reporters it would mean we are undermining Thibs.

[RememberLu]

Kirk Hinrich is like the Bulls version of Shea McLellin. Nobody knows why he's on the field/court but the org keeps pushing him out there at different positions trying to convince us he's good.

[TheSuzerain]

Roberto Garza is the better comparison.

[musiqsoulchild]

Kirk Hinrich will play 26 minutes the next game. And you will all endure it.

Bwahahahaha!!!

[TheSuzerain]

At least the Hinrich Era had a reason to exist in the first place unlike the Nazr era.

[Chowda]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/suntimes_hoops/status/558779953680891906[/tweet]

Paxson said that about Kirk on the radio, donwplaying meddling with Thibs coaching.

But to me, it clearly is meddling. Kirk Hinrich does not have an injury, nor coming off something serious like Rose or Noah.

He is just an old veteran player. For Paxson to just 'see' that Kirk played better with low minutes last year and dictate to Thibs he cannot be used over that is a slap in the face to Tom.

Its not meddling with Thibs. Its the way of player management going forward.

When you have your core group of 4 making close to 60 Million, you can only add impactful pieces by letting another lever go ( age, health etc.). Thats how you can get a high performance team on value deals.

Since the Bulls will always prefer signing players with lack of physical healh ( Gasol, Kirk) over players with lack of mental health ( Lance for example), minutes restriction will be part of the new formula.

Even Kirk said at the time of signing that he was looking to go all put in less minutes. He looked like he was doing exactly that yeaterday. Even Noah. They were having fun going ALL OUT in a few minutes rather than plodding their way through treacle for longer.

I am glad that this is the policy in place where Jen + Thibs + FO all get their collective heads together and the FO sets the direction. Its not meddling; its the future of how Bulls basketball is gonna look until Rose retires.

There is no way it is as koombyya as you make it sound. If minute dictation is "the future of how Bulls basketball is gonna look" than that future will not include Thibs much longer. When a FO makes coaching decisions for a coach--i.e. minutes restrictions--this is tampering, or meddling, and in no way a vote of confidence. Now, some coaches are okay with this, some coaches are in fact hired because they won't put up a fight and simply do the FO bidding, but I doubt, in fact we know, that's not Thibs.

Signing Hinrich with the caveat that you can play him only so many minutes is patently absurd, especially a team coached by Thibs. It's like handing an addict some pills and saying "Now, only take 1." Here's an idea; why don't you sign somebody that can actually handle big minutes, or rather, a player you're okay playing the minutes you know Thibs will play him. Someone with legs.

The whole situation is a farce.