Around the NBA, Part 4

[Mech Engineer]

I think we need to look at this feud from a different angle. JVG is a loose mouth....no question.

But, Gar supposedly confronted JVG during a previous game. Pax called it pathetic. The problem with what they did is they look defensively aggressive.

They can be transparent or tell sometimes they make mistakes (like the Vinny tie pull) but that doesn't mean they haven't learnt from it. JVG is jokingly talking about this but building a narrative against GarPax.

It might be a subtle way by Thibs to gain control by exposing GarPax 's mistakes because that part is not a big discussion thing in the national media.

The Bulls dirty laundry in the national media has been a lot about Thibs/FO feud with the only big issue being Thibs's minutes problem. Maybe, Thibs wants to change that narrative.

Let's not forget Thibs is not Skiles. He has much better reputation as a coach in the media and the players/NBA. People just try to think he is just an assistant coach who became a HC. He is a much bigger name with the reputation to get more power in many organizations.

IMO, there are a couple of underlying issues we don't know...

1. Is Thibs trying to gain control of the Bulls FO and building a case against Gar?

2. We don't know who Jerry supports and this Tyrus/LaMarcus issue is trying to show GarPax have made crucial mistakes and are taking credit for late picks like Taj, Jimmy etc.. which Thibs feels he developed them.

[CB4L]

I think it's that JVG being friends with Thibs as well as working together in the past, just feels bad that Thibs hasn't been given a fair chance considering his team is always shorthanded and whatnot. I think it's his emotion that gets better of him causing him to spew out things on national tv. problem is that fans of other teams and stuff will see/hear that and all of a sudden you have the knicks situation of last season where people all figured Thibs would be the coach of the knicks this season. Won't quiet down until bulls are healthy and make a strong run.

Also the Bulls FO has made it clear they won't publicly address anything every single time (because they have come out and said it before in terms of shooting down rumors but they still swirl regardless).

[jc23]

I think we need to look at this feud from a different angle. JVG is a loose mouth....no question.

But, Gar supposedly confronted JVG during a previous game. Pax called it pathetic. The problem with what they did is they look defensively aggressive.

They can be transparent or tell sometimes they make mistakes (like the Vinny tie pull) but that doesn't mean they haven't learnt from it. JVG is jokingly talking about this but building a narrative against GarPax.

It might be a subtle way by Thibs to gain control by exposing GarPax 's mistakes because that part is not a big discussion thing in the national media.

The Bulls dirty laundry in the national media has been a lot about Thibs/FO feud with the only big issue being Thibs's minutes problem. Maybe, Thibs wants to change that narrative.

Let's not forget Thibs is not Skiles. He has much better reputation as a coach in the media and the players/NBA. People just try to think he is just an assistant coach who became a HC. He is a much bigger name with the reputation to get more power in many organizations.

IMO, there are a couple of underlying issues we don't know...

1. Is Thibs trying to gain control of the Bulls FO and building a case against Gar?

2. We don't know who Jerry supports and this Tyrus/LaMarcus issue is trying to show GarPax have made crucial mistakes and are taking credit for late picks like Taj, Jimmy etc.. which Thibs feels he developed them.

To me he is taking a shot at Jerry Reinsdorf as well, JVG said "look all the way back to Doug Collins and how the Bulls treated him". So JVG is saying the Bulls treat coaches poorly since the 80's and grapx wasnt around back then.

Funny thing about that though is Doug Collins has publicly stated that Jerry Reinsdorf is one of his 'best' friends.

I think JVG is speaking some truth and Chicago has looked at coaches as expendable. And there has been some bad blood between some former coaches and the FO so it comes as no surprise. But i also think some of this is JVG just being petty and having his own issues with the Bulls and what better then to make them look back on national TV.

[Mech Engineer]

I think we need to look at this feud from a different angle. JVG is a loose mouth....no question.

But, Gar supposedly confronted JVG during a previous game. Pax called it pathetic. The problem with what they did is they look defensively aggressive.

They can be transparent or tell sometimes they make mistakes (like the Vinny tie pull) but that doesn't mean they haven't learnt from it. JVG is jokingly talking about this but building a narrative against GarPax.

It might be a subtle way by Thibs to gain control by exposing GarPax 's mistakes because that part is not a big discussion thing in the national media.

The Bulls dirty laundry in the national media has been a lot about Thibs/FO feud with the only big issue being Thibs's minutes problem. Maybe, Thibs wants to change that narrative.

Let's not forget Thibs is not Skiles. He has much better reputation as a coach in the media and the players/NBA. People just try to think he is just an assistant coach who became a HC. He is a much bigger name with the reputation to get more power in many organizations.

IMO, there are a couple of underlying issues we don't know...

1. Is Thibs trying to gain control of the Bulls FO and building a case against Gar?

2. We don't know who Jerry supports and this Tyrus/LaMarcus issue is trying to show GarPax have made crucial mistakes and are taking credit for late picks like Taj, Jimmy etc.. which Thibs feels he developed them.

To me he is taking a shot at Jerry Reinsdorf as well, JVG said "look all the way back to Doug Collins and how the Bulls treated him". So JVG is saying the Bulls treat coaches poorly since the 80's and grapx wasnt around back then.

Funny thing about that though is Doug Collins has publicly stated that Jerry Reinsdorf is one of his 'best' friends.

I think JVG is speaking some truth and Chicago has looked at coaches as expendable. And there has been some bad blood between some former coaches and the FO so it comes as no surprise. But i also think some of this is JVG just being petty and having his own issues with the Bulls and what better then to make them look back on national TV.

I agree JVG thinks the Bulls organization don't support their coaches which he is right and as you said, they probably have that philosophy. But, we always assume things will repeat the same way it has before like how it happened with Doug Collins, Vinny etc...

But, Thibs is a little bit of different animal like how Phil was in 1998. Thibs might not have won as much as Phil but he has a big rep.

The bottom-line is JVG is all over the place and he is taking every shot possible.

But, my point is Thibs trying to take some control and get a favorable GM type to work with him. IMO, Thibs is not going out like others and if he is going out, he is going to go down fighting or maybe he has an idea that there is a chance he can get control.

[musiqsoulchild]

Its a PHILOSOPHICAL divide.

This FO/ownership, past FO's have always held the belief that "Organizations win championships".

And thats with all-time greats like Phil Jackson. I am sure that rankles the hell out of Jeff Van Gundy, as he is part of the coaching brotherhood.

[RedBulls23]

Same thing as before about how the head coaches are not treated right in Chicago and that he's not speaking for Thibs its just his opinion. Nothing new he hasn't said yet. I didn't think it was bad until he took a subtle shot at Paxson and Breen called him out on it. It was about the Aldridge/Tyrus trade. One of the only misses in the past several years.

ah okay thanks. What did Breen say?

[jc23]

Same thing as before about how the head coaches are not treated right in Chicago and that he's not speaking for Thibs its just his opinion. Nothing new he hasn't said yet. I didn't think it was bad until he took a subtle shot at Paxson and Breen called him out on it. It was about the Aldridge/Tyrus trade. One of the only misses in the past several years.

ah okay thanks. What did Breen say?

"your a vindictive little Gundy aren't you?"


or at least that is what i would have said

[TheStig]

I think we need to look at this feud from a different angle. JVG is a loose mouth....no question.

But, Gar supposedly confronted JVG during a previous game. Pax called it pathetic. The problem with what they did is they look defensively aggressive.

They can be transparent or tell sometimes they make mistakes (like the Vinny tie pull) but that doesn't mean they haven't learnt from it. JVG is jokingly talking about this but building a narrative against GarPax.

It might be a subtle way by Thibs to gain control by exposing GarPax 's mistakes because that part is not a big discussion thing in the national media.

The Bulls dirty laundry in the national media has been a lot about Thibs/FO feud with the only big issue being Thibs's minutes problem. Maybe, Thibs wants to change that narrative.

Let's not forget Thibs is not Skiles. He has much better reputation as a coach in the media and the players/NBA. People just try to think he is just an assistant coach who became a HC. He is a much bigger name with the reputation to get more power in many organizations.

IMO, there are a couple of underlying issues we don't know...

1. Is Thibs trying to gain control of the Bulls FO and building a case against Gar?

2. We don't know who Jerry supports and this Tyrus/LaMarcus issue is trying to show GarPax have made crucial mistakes and are taking credit for late picks like Taj, Jimmy etc.. which Thibs feels he developed them.

I don't think Thib's is trying to push GarPax out of the organization as much as he is trying to push them out of his realm of coaching. Thibs has been around the league for a long time, he has worked for a lot of very good coaches and sees the latitude and input they're given. I think he wants that. He wants to be able to pick his assistants, manage minutes and not be out ranking by Jen Swanson.

The GarPax regime likes to control the coach. It's why they hire unknowns, pay little and make them disposable with shorter deals at first. It's why all these coaches have rifts with management toward the end of deals. It's a great job to start. You get a proven system, solid cast and a roster that will make the playoffs. Unfortunately, after the unproven tag wears off, you want to have full coaching control and money. It doesn't happen hear. It's not a one time thing. This isn't the first or last time it will happen.

GarPax have a couple of issues. They are a pretty good FO. But they don't empower or trust their coaches and they're very conservative. Firing/Forcing out Thibs won't help the team. It will make it worse. Firing Ron Adams didn't help the team, it only made things worse.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

Jeff Van Gundy is fantastic. I'm all aboard hearing him talk about the Bulls front office. Would love for him to talk more about it.

I also don't think Van Gundy is speaking for Thibs. He is a defender of the coaching circle. And the Bulls front office is notoriously evil towards their coaches. From grabbing coaches by the tie, to firing coaches on Christmas eve, to pushing Thibs out. They are pretty vindictive.

[Mech Engineer]

I don't think Thib's is trying to push GarPax out of the organization as much as he is trying to push them out of his realm of coaching. Thibs has been around the league for a long time, he has worked for a lot of very good coaches and sees the latitude and input they're given. I think he wants that. He wants to be able to pick his assistants, manage minutes and not be out ranking by Jen Swanson.

The GarPax regime likes to control the coach. It's why they hire unknowns, pay little and make them disposable with shorter deals at first. It's why all these coaches have rifts with management toward the end of deals. It's a great job to start. You get a proven system, solid cast and a roster that will make the playoffs. Unfortunately, after the unproven tag wears off, you want to have full coaching control and money. It doesn't happen hear. It's not a one time thing. This isn't the first or last time it will happen.

GarPax have a couple of issues. They are a pretty good FO. But they don't empower or trust their coaches and they're very conservative. Firing/Forcing out Thibs won't help the team. It will make it worse. Firing Ron Adams didn't help the team, it only made things worse.

I think we are trying to extrapolate the Krause/Jerry philosophy to GarPax/Micheal Reinsdorf. It might be the same or totally different.

The reality is Thibs is the best coach after Phil in the Bulls organization(Doug Collins might be comparable). As JVG said, he has a lot of wins which Skiles or others didn't have. And, he has done mostly without his best player whose salary was on the books.

Whether we like Thibs or not, he has a good rep in the league unlike anybody else this organization has had since Phil.

I also think almost every GM would like to control the coach. It is nothing new. But, unless you have a super coach, you need the coach/GM to work well together. Thibs does say though it is not his job to get that 15th guy for example in his interviews. Which also means, he is not trying to do their job.

You might be right they might be excessive in their interference based on how silent GarPax have been on Thibs. But, IMO, it boils down to Jerry/Micheal Reinsdorf deciding on whom they want to keep. I just don't think the Reinsdorfs would view Thibs the same way as a disposable coach like they viewed Vinny, Skiles etc...

[TheStig]

I don't think Thib's is trying to push GarPax out of the organization as much as he is trying to push them out of his realm of coaching. Thibs has been around the league for a long time, he has worked for a lot of very good coaches and sees the latitude and input they're given. I think he wants that. He wants to be able to pick his assistants, manage minutes and not be out ranking by Jen Swanson.

The GarPax regime likes to control the coach. It's why they hire unknowns, pay little and make them disposable with shorter deals at first. It's why all these coaches have rifts with management toward the end of deals. It's a great job to start. You get a proven system, solid cast and a roster that will make the playoffs. Unfortunately, after the unproven tag wears off, you want to have full coaching control and money. It doesn't happen hear. It's not a one time thing. This isn't the first or last time it will happen.

GarPax have a couple of issues. They are a pretty good FO. But they don't empower or trust their coaches and they're very conservative. Firing/Forcing out Thibs won't help the team. It will make it worse. Firing Ron Adams didn't help the team, it only made things worse.

I think we are trying to extrapolate the Krause/Jerry philosophy to GarPax/Micheal Reinsdorf. It might be the same or totally different.

The reality is Thibs is the best coach after Phil in the Bulls organization(Doug Collins might be comparable). As JVG said, he has a lot of wins which Skiles or others didn't have. And, he has done mostly without his best player whose salary was on the books.

Whether we like Thibs or not, he has a good rep in the league unlike anybody else this organization has had since Phil.

I also think almost every GM would like to control the coach. It is nothing new. But, unless you have a super coach, you need the coach/GM to work well together. Thibs does say though it is not his job to get that 15th guy for example in his interviews. Which also means, he is not trying to do their job.

You might be right they might be excessive in their interference based on how silent GarPax have been on Thibs. But, IMO, it boils down to Jerry/Micheal Reinsdorf deciding on whom they want to keep. I just don't think the Reinsdorfs would view Thibs the same way as a disposable coach like they viewed Vinny, Skiles etc...

I don't think its cut and dry and most higher profile coaches get autonomy from the front office. I also don't think most organizations micromanage coaches the same way we do.

Its not so much one or the other as it might be poor managment from JR/MR in defining roles. It seems that GarPax and Thib's are fighting for a piece of the puzzle and not control. If JR/MR clearly defined that Thibs is in charge of all coaching duties and his staff, then GarPax would back off. If they want GarPax to have that oversight then they need to lay it out to Thibs. This fighting is clearly because roles are not clearly defined from above.

[Mech Engineer]

I don't think Thib's is trying to push GarPax out of the organization as much as he is trying to push them out of his realm of coaching. Thibs has been around the league for a long time, he has worked for a lot of very good coaches and sees the latitude and input they're given. I think he wants that. He wants to be able to pick his assistants, manage minutes and not be out ranking by Jen Swanson.

The GarPax regime likes to control the coach. It's why they hire unknowns, pay little and make them disposable with shorter deals at first. It's why all these coaches have rifts with management toward the end of deals. It's a great job to start. You get a proven system, solid cast and a roster that will make the playoffs. Unfortunately, after the unproven tag wears off, you want to have full coaching control and money. It doesn't happen hear. It's not a one time thing. This isn't the first or last time it will happen.

GarPax have a couple of issues. They are a pretty good FO. But they don't empower or trust their coaches and they're very conservative. Firing/Forcing out Thibs won't help the team. It will make it worse. Firing Ron Adams didn't help the team, it only made things worse.

I think we are trying to extrapolate the Krause/Jerry philosophy to GarPax/Micheal Reinsdorf. It might be the same or totally different.

The reality is Thibs is the best coach after Phil in the Bulls organization(Doug Collins might be comparable). As JVG said, he has a lot of wins which Skiles or others didn't have. And, he has done mostly without his best player whose salary was on the books.

Whether we like Thibs or not, he has a good rep in the league unlike anybody else this organization has had since Phil.

I also think almost every GM would like to control the coach. It is nothing new. But, unless you have a super coach, you need the coach/GM to work well together. Thibs does say though it is not his job to get that 15th guy for example in his interviews. Which also means, he is not trying to do their job.

You might be right they might be excessive in their interference based on how silent GarPax have been on Thibs. But, IMO, it boils down to Jerry/Micheal Reinsdorf deciding on whom they want to keep. I just don't think the Reinsdorfs would view Thibs the same way as a disposable coach like they viewed Vinny, Skiles etc...

I don't think its cut and dry and most higher profile coaches get autonomy from the front office. I also don't think most organizations micromanage coaches the same way we do.

Its not so much one or the other as it might be poor managment from JR/MR in defining roles. It seems that GarPax and Thib's are fighting for a piece of the puzzle and not control. If JR/MR clearly defined that Thibs is in charge of all coaching duties and his staff, then GarPax would back off. If they want GarPax to have that oversight then they need to lay it out to Thibs. This fighting is clearly because roles are not clearly defined from above.

Let's face it...Thibs's role or rep has kind of changed. In 2010, he was a new coach. But, he brought in some new things/culture which helped the team to be a consistent winner regardless of personnel. He should definitely want more control over coaching. I know we all have gone through the minutes/injury stuff. But, as you say....regardless of that, there is probably proper roles not defined with the Bulls. You just cannot take a high performing coach and say you are reducing your role/power.

It is obvious there is a rift between them. My point is that the final decision is not as simple as Thibs getting replaced by some newbie college coach and decided by Gar and everybody moving on. It is going to be a little more messy, IMO.

[pb-ceo]

I think we need to look at this feud from a different angle. JVG is a loose mouth....no question.

But, Gar supposedly confronted JVG during a previous game. Pax called it pathetic. The problem with what they did is they look defensively aggressive.

They can be transparent or tell sometimes they make mistakes (like the Vinny tie pull) but that doesn't mean they haven't learnt from it. JVG is jokingly talking about this but building a narrative against GarPax.

It might be a subtle way by Thibs to gain control by exposing GarPax 's mistakes because that part is not a big discussion thing in the national media.

The Bulls dirty laundry in the national media has been a lot about Thibs/FO feud with the only big issue being Thibs's minutes problem. Maybe, Thibs wants to change that narrative.

Let's not forget Thibs is not Skiles. He has much better reputation as a coach in the media and the players/NBA. People just try to think he is just an assistant coach who became a HC. He is a much bigger name with the reputation to get more power in many organizations.

IMO, there are a couple of underlying issues we don't know...

1. Is Thibs trying to gain control of the Bulls FO and building a case against Gar?

2. We don't know who Jerry supports and this Tyrus/LaMarcus issue is trying to show GarPax have made crucial mistakes and are taking credit for late picks like Taj, Jimmy etc.. which Thibs feels he developed them.

i think it's much simpler than that. JVG is a sensitive little boy and took what garpax said personally. and he used his fourm on national tv to hit back. and believe me it landed. they showed PAX a couple minutes later texting. you can bet somebody just texted him what was said. JVG landed a big blow there. And in some ways he had a right to point it out. garpax does not have a national platform and shouyld have stayed out of a fued with JVG. they learned their lesson.

[pb-ceo]

if thibs leaves and loses this power struggle. you aint seen nothing yet. the leaks on the garpax "administration" will erupt all over the place.

[TheStig]

I think we are trying to extrapolate the Krause/Jerry philosophy to GarPax/Micheal Reinsdorf. It might be the same or totally different.

The reality is Thibs is the best coach after Phil in the Bulls organization(Doug Collins might be comparable). As JVG said, he has a lot of wins which Skiles or others didn't have. And, he has done mostly without his best player whose salary was on the books.

Whether we like Thibs or not, he has a good rep in the league unlike anybody else this organization has had since Phil.

I also think almost every GM would like to control the coach. It is nothing new. But, unless you have a super coach, you need the coach/GM to work well together. Thibs does say though it is not his job to get that 15th guy for example in his interviews. Which also means, he is not trying to do their job.

You might be right they might be excessive in their interference based on how silent GarPax have been on Thibs. But, IMO, it boils down to Jerry/Micheal Reinsdorf deciding on whom they want to keep. I just don't think the Reinsdorfs would view Thibs the same way as a disposable coach like they viewed Vinny, Skiles etc...

I don't think its cut and dry and most higher profile coaches get autonomy from the front office. I also don't think most organizations micromanage coaches the same way we do.

Its not so much one or the other as it might be poor managment from JR/MR in defining roles. It seems that GarPax and Thib's are fighting for a piece of the puzzle and not control. If JR/MR clearly defined that Thibs is in charge of all coaching duties and his staff, then GarPax would back off. If they want GarPax to have that oversight then they need to lay it out to Thibs. This fighting is clearly because roles are not clearly defined from above.

Let's face it...Thibs's role or rep has kind of changed. In 2010, he was a new coach. But, he brought in some new things/culture which helped the team to be a consistent winner regardless of personnel. He should definitely want more control over coaching. I know we all have gone through the minutes/injury stuff. But, as you say....regardless of that, there is probably proper roles not defined with the Bulls. You just cannot take a high performing coach and say you are reducing your role/power.

It is obvious there is a rift between them. My point is that the final decision is not as simple as Thibs getting replaced by some newbie college coach and decided by Gar and everybody moving on. It is going to be a little more messy, IMO.

Its not going to be so simple at all and unfortunately the product on the floor will suffer. That being said, we have seen this type of issue play out before with PJ and Krause. And I think things would be better if they weren't neglected and allowed to have battles but have a Reinsdorf step in and settle things. But it just seems like they're very passive and in the NBA Coach and GM don't have that clear Manager/Employee relationship due to the high profile and exposure.

[Mbrahv0528]

Its a PHILOSOPHICAL divide.

This FO/ownership, past FO's have always held the belief that "Organizations win championships".

And thats with all-time greats like Phil Jackson. I am sure that rankles the hell out of Jeff Van Gundy, as he is part of the coaching brotherhood.

Jerry Krause said that. I do not believe anyone else in the org past or present truly believes you can win a championship without at least an above average coach.

[FriedRise]

Toronto neck and neck with the Sixers... if Raps lose, we'll move up to 2nd seed again. Oh man, the east is so bad.

[maynardo]

It's on!!

[kodo]

Oh man, the east is so bad.

But Brooklyn is leading Golden State!

What a crazy night.

EDIT: wow Beasley is playing again, I missed it

[MrSparkle]

I'd like to see Pax or Gar suit up and work the bench, kinda how other GMs have been tested.