Bulls only team in league that hasn't traded for a player on roster

[Rerisen]

Furthering my last post, here is a totally random game I picked out of last year. One of our dud losses to a bad team in Charlotte. It is the first box I looked at confident the point could be found that easy.

Noah: 1-4, 4 pts, 11 reb, 8 ast, 33m
Brooks: 4-12, 12 pts, 28 min
Dunleavy: 0-3, 19 minutes

That's 16 points in 80 minutes for 3 starters. If I pull Brooks out, its 4 points in 52 minutes! Now in this rare game Snell and Hinrich did ok for once - two of the more common culprits if you looked at more games - but you see these other 3 starters contributed crap on offense. And you can pick the majority games during the year and see horrible balance like this almost every single one.

It's particularly interesting about MDJ because while we often hear 'its not his job' to provide volume, the problem is when you combine utter lack of producing at a wing spot with also starting a center like Jo for 30 minutes that also isn't a threat. Now you start getting a domino effect at the team level that is hugely detrimental. And why if we are going to start a Perkins player like Noah, can't really also have a SF starting that 1/3 of his games is going to give you next to nothing offensively. Not just scoring, but no playmaking as well.

To this overall point, which I would make frequently last year, people would sometimes try to add up the random down nights of opposing teams and say its the same. But its not because the other (esp great teams) random down nights were usually not so extreme. And its not just a couple of our guys randomly don't score well each night, that is in fact, rather common, but that for the most part, they aren't bringing anything else to the table either. No above average defense, no playmaking, no getting to the line, creating no turnovers. And this is the one area that the PER stat does do a good job representing overall total production, and the fact that we were playing so many flatline PER players in our rotation suggests very weak depth and imbalance in where our contributions are coming from night to night.

Also part of the context is that we don't have a LeBron or Steph Curry to offset such multiple dead efforts elsewhere. The Bulls were heralded as some Spurs-like juggernaut of depth and talent before the season, and that even if Rose never made it back to MVP, we were going hammer our way to the ECF purely on our frontcourt and amazing depth. Neither strength proved out to be true.

The way we've addressed this concern is bring the exact same team back, blame it on the coach, and pray young players take huge strides, while the older players don't further decline.

[DanTown8587]

how was the Rose draft "hitting a home run"? They hit on a 1.7% long shot. I would call that luck. Kudos for not taking Beasley, but home run?

Niko and Jimmy was taking a out of the strike zone curve ball and hitting a Grand Slam.. I'll give you that.

Pau. Not really a home run at all. In fact, probably not even that great of a move for last years team. I'm not sure we wouldn't have been better off using that slot for back up PG or wing.

Not sure how this summer is a home run either. We just fired a proven top coach with an historically good record, despite losing his superstar for most of his tenure... and we hired an unproven college coach. Have not addressed the real needs of real back up point guard and starting SF.

As GM, Paxson has three "there's no way that should happen" moves

1. Traded future #1 in 2005 for the #7 pick (luol Deng) in 2004
2. Traded Eddy Curry + the #19 pick for the #2 and #9 pick
3. Drafted Jimmy Butler #30 overall

You can say Rose was luck but those three moves are insane and stack up with ANY GM in this league's "best moves".

[johnnyvann840]

how was the Rose draft "hitting a home run"? They hit on a 1.7% long shot. I would call that luck. Kudos for not taking Beasley, but home run?

Niko and Jimmy was taking a out of the strike zone curve ball and hitting a Grand Slam.. I'll give you that.

Pau. Not really a home run at all. In fact, probably not even that great of a move for last years team. I'm not sure we wouldn't have been better off using that slot for back up PG or wing.

Not sure how this summer is a home run either. We just fired a proven top coach with an historically good record, despite losing his superstar for most of his tenure... and we hired an unproven college coach. Have not addressed the real needs of real back up point guard and starting SF.

As GM, Paxson has three "there's no way that should happen" moves

1. Traded future #1 in 2005 for the #7 pick (luol Deng) in 2004
2. Traded Eddy Curry + the #19 pick for the #2 and #9 pick
3. Drafted Jimmy Butler #30 overall

You can say Rose was luck but those three moves are insane and stack up with ANY GM in this league's "best moves".

Not arguing this. I have always thought Pax does a great job with the draft and with correcting his mistakes. I was just addressing three of the four "Home Runs" listed as not really being what I define as a Home Run. Drafting Butler is a Grand Slam,so was the Curry deal, not just HR's.

[Keller61]

Furthering my last post, here is a totally random game I picked out of last year. One of our dud losses to a bad team in Charlotte. It is the first box I looked at confident the point could be found that easy.

Noah: 1-4, 4 pts, 11 reb, 8 ast, 33m
Brooks: 4-12, 12 pts, 28 min
Dunleavy: 0-3, 19 minutes

That's 16 points in 80 minutes for 3 starters. If I pull Brooks out, its 4 points in 52 minutes! Now in this rare game Snell and Hinrich did ok for once - two of the more common culprits if you looked at more games - but you see these other 3 starters contributed crap on offense. And you can pick the majority games during the year and see horrible balance like this almost every single one.

It's particularly interesting about MDJ because while we often hear 'its not his job' to provide volume, the problem is when you combine utter lack of producing at a wing spot with also starting a center like Jo for 30 minutes that also isn't a threat. Now you start getting a domino effect at the team level that is hugely detrimental. And why if we are going to start a Perkins player like Noah, can't really also have a SF starting that 1/3 of his games is going to give you next to nothing offensively. Not just scoring, but no playmaking as well.

To this overall point, which I would make frequently last year, people would sometimes try to add up the random down nights of opposing teams and say its the same. But its not because the other (esp great teams) random down nights were usually not so extreme. And its not just a couple of our guys randomly don't score well each night, that is in fact, rather common, but that for the most part, they aren't bringing anything else to the table either. No above average defense, no playmaking, no getting to the line, creating no turnovers. And this is the one area that the PER stat does do a good job representing overall total production, and the fact that we were playing so many flatline PER players in our rotation suggests very weak depth and imbalance in where our contributions are coming from night to night.

Also part of the context is that we don't have a LeBron or Steph Curry to offset such multiple dead efforts elsewhere. The Bulls were heralded as some Spurs-like juggernaut of depth and talent before the season, and that even if Rose never made it back to MVP, we were going hammer our way to the ECF purely on our frontcourt and amazing depth. Neither strength proved out to be true.

The way we've addressed this concern is bring the exact same team back, blame it on the coach, and pray young players take huge strides, while the older players don't further decline.

How about the pivotal game of our season - Game 4 vs. Cavs: http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400793124

Our mighty frontcourt of Noah, Gibson, Mirotic, and Dunleavy combined for 21 points on 35 shots in 122 minutes. What makes that game extra sad is that Rose WAS at MVP level, and LeBron was not.

[TheJordanRule]

What the topic's fact establishes:

GarPax are risk-averse when it comes to trading.

Has that been an EFFECTIVE tactic towards winning a championship/building a winner thus far? Well, we haven't really improved since 2011

Our roster around Derrick Rose has improved dramatically since 2011. But during that interim period, well, we lost the Rose part. Kind of a big deal. You don't really think this roster with an MVP version of Derrick Rose isn't an upgraded one, do you?

That is an interesting thought. Not sure I'd buy it's a dramatic improvement. Which version of the Bulls is better? This version seems deeper- more offensively versatile. But the 2010 team could just strangle the life out of you. Tougher call than you are suggesting.

2010 Rose vs 2015 Rose : 2010 Rose.

Bogans vs Butler: Butler

Deng vs Dunleavy: Deng

Boozer vs Gasol: Gasol

2010 Noah vs 2015 Noah. 2010 Noah

Top subs in 2010: Taj, Korver, Ronnie Brewer, Asik, CJ

Top subs in 2015: Taj, Niko, Snell, Hinrich, Brooks

Not sure which bench mob gets the nod- but I lean 2010. But depends on whether you lean offense or defense.

Coaching; 2010 Thibs vs 2015 Thibs. 2010 Thibs.

Fun exercise.

I enjoyed reading your break down, GreenL. Before reading your post, my belief was that Butler's emergence alone pulls our current supporting cast far above the one we had in 2011. But your objective analysis indicates that it's a draw at best, and perhaps even an overall slight downgrade at worst. I agree that Dunleavy is considerably worse than Deng. Noah has declined and even though Pau is better than 2010 Boozer, it's not as big a gap as you might think. As far as the bench mobs are concerned, ours is top heavy and more imbalanced. The old and new bench mobs may be dead even in terms of overall talent, with vastly different strengths and weaknesses, but practically speaking the utter lack of depth at the wings means our bench is typically worse. As brilliant as the FO has been at drafting, the bottom line is they create as many holes as they fill.

[Rerisen]

The inability to clearly overtake the 2011 squad, even with Rose being even or out of the picture, is obviously Noah.

Despite Butler's amazing growth, can't really say he means more to a team than Noah's ability to be a great defensive anchor. Which as of right now, we don't know he can be anymore. Gasol, good offensive year or not, does not make the same impact at a key defensive position.

Now if you give the team both a peak Rose AND Noah, I think obviously the current team would be better. But I don't think that is a thing you freely give as a hypothetical. Because Noah is now going to be 30, in 10-11 he was 25. Its hardly unheard for players to decline earlier than expected on injuries, or whatever else, before you might hope. Look at someone like Varejao, not the same player he was in his prime either. So we can't just say its all entirely bad luck. Though Rose certainly was, but sometimes you only get a finite window to really put the best team around your prime age core. That's NBA reality, for most teams things go wrong.

To be that forgiving with how things 'should' have gone, pretending nothing goes wrong, you would have to give all other teams equal health and luck as well. Which would make the league an enormously tougher environment. Durant and Westbrook never getting hurt. Chris Paul not getting hurt in the playoffs. The Spurs various injuries in playoff years to Parker and Ginobili never happening. Wade staying a lot healther, and maybe LeBron never leaves Miami, etc. It's just not a very honest hypothetical to say if *all* our players had stayed healthy well look how great we would be and the org would then be passing with flying colors, because the same could be said of at least a half dozen other teams.

Rose alone not getting hurt, since he risks being a tragic player like Tmac or Grant Hill, I think that's fair to speculate on where we would be (even though he was a stroke 1.7% luck in the first place), but Rose alone not getting hurt I would still see it neck and neck as to if this team could beat the 2011 squad. Because lets not forget Boozer felloff big time after his ankle injuries that year, and Noah had hand surgery, and wasn't right in the playoffs that year either. Noah is never right in the playoffs.

[musiqsoulchild]

The inability to clearly overtake the 2011 squad, even with Rose being even or out of the picture, is obviously Noah.

Despite Butler's amazing growth, can't really say he means more to a team than Noah's ability to be a great defensive anchor. Which as of right now, we don't know he can be anymore. Gasol, good offensive year or not, does not make the same impact at a key defensive position.

Now if you give the team both a peak Rose AND Noah, I think obviously the current team would be better. But I don't think that is a thing you freely give as a hypothetical. Because Noah is now going to be 30, in 10-11 he was 25. Its hardly unheard for players to decline earlier than expected on injuries, or whatever else, before you might hope. Look at someone like Varejao, not the same player he was in his prime either. So we can't just say its all entirely bad luck. Though Rose certainly was, but sometimes you only get a finite window to really put the best team around your prime age core. That's NBA reality, for most teams things go wrong.

To be that forgiving with how things 'should' have gone, pretending nothing goes wrong, you would have to give all other teams equal health and luck as well. Which would make the league an enormously tougher environment. Durant and Westbrook never getting hurt. Chris Paul not getting hurt in the playoffs. The Spurs various injuries in playoff years to Parker and Ginobili never happening. Wade staying a lot healther, and maybe LeBron never leaves Miami, etc. It's just not a very honest hypothetical to say if *all* our players had stayed healthy well look how great we would be and the org would then be passing with flying colors, because the same could be said of at least a half dozen other teams.

Rose alone not getting hurt, since he risks being a tragic player like Tmac or Grant Hill, I think that's fair to speculate on where we would be (even though he was a stroke 1.7% luck in the first place), but Rose alone not getting hurt I would still see it neck and neck as to if this team could beat the 2011 squad. Because lets not forget Boozer felloff big time after his ankle injuries that year, and Noah had hand surgery, and wasn't right in the playoffs that year either. Noah is never right in the playoffs.

Then let's just look at results - injuries and other factors be damned.

That leaves us as the # 2 team last season. Just like it was in 2011 to Miami.

That's where we are next season as well - #2 team to Cleveland.

No move - barring a trade of Rose AND Noah for superior talent - can change that.

[Rerisen]

That leaves us as the # 2 team last season. Just like it was in 2011 to Miami.

Actually Atlanta was 2nd. They had a better record and made it to the ECF. We made it to the 2nd round, same as the Wizards.

No move - barring a trade of Rose AND Noah for superior talent - can change that.

"We can't be the best on paper anyway" Strawman for the hundreth time. Therefore give up and stop trying to get better.

[musiqsoulchild]

That leaves us as the # 2 team last season. Just like it was in 2011 to Miami.

Actually Atlanta was 2nd. They had a better record and made it to the ECF. We made it to the 2nd round, same as the Wizards.

No move - barring a trade of Rose AND Noah for superior talent - can change that.

"We can't be the best on paper anyway" Strawman for the hundreth time. Therefore give up and stop trying to get better.

I should qualify every sentence I speak - it feels like that kind of thread.

We were the second best team in the PLAYOFFS. Cleveland beat Atlanta 4-0 / they beat us 4-2. Remember - Atlanta's injuries dont count by your logic.

Ditto in 2011 - We were the second best team in 2011 IN THE PLAYOFFS.

More importantly - lets put the strawman accusations to rest please.

Let's move past Rose + Noah. What changes can be made that move us from the SECOND BEST PLAYOFF team in the East to the BEST PLAYOFF TEAM IN THE East?

Do tell.

[musiqsoulchild]

Lets reframe my argument:

What is the meaning of the word IMPROVEMENT? For me it means to move from a worse state to a better state.

What moves are out there ( non-Rose, non - Noah, non - Taj) that are going to IMPROVE us from #2 in the East to #1?

Anybody?

[Rerisen]

Lets reframe my argument:

What is the meaning of the word IMPROVEMENT? For me it means to move from a worse state to a better state.

What moves are out there ( non-Rose, non - Noah, non - Taj) that are going to IMPROVE us from #2 in the East to #1?

Anybody?

Your argument is the wrong argument, that hardly anyone else cares about except you, as a last ditch context to defend the status quo. There are no moves to move us past Cleveland on paper. Nor Golden State, or likely San Antonio.

But these are arbitrary metrics anyway, if Cleveland was only 1% better than us, then would a move that makes us 2% better suddenly be worth making, but now its not because Cleveland is 5% better or something?

It's a silly yardstick, the goal should be to get better, PERIOD. By a little, by a lot, by a tiny bit. With all the means at your disposal. Clearly per the thread, there is one means at our disposal we don't like to use, or simply are very bad at using.

I have never heard of a strategy where the end goal is to be the 2nd best team in your conference (not that we have even proven that) and once you think you are, to just be happy to stop trying to get any better if you can't subjectively become 1st.

[burlydee]

That leaves us as the # 2 team last season. Just like it was in 2011 to Miami.

Actually Atlanta was 2nd. They had a better record and made it to the ECF. We made it to the 2nd round, same as the Wizards.

No move - barring a trade of Rose AND Noah for superior talent - can change that.

"We can't be the best on paper anyway" Strawman for the hundreth time. Therefore give up and stop trying to get better.

I should qualify every sentence I speak - it feels like that kind of thread.

We were the second best team in the PLAYOFFS. Cleveland beat Atlanta 4-0 / they beat us 4-2. Remember - Atlanta's injuries dont count by your logic.

Ditto in 2011 - We were the second best team in 2011 IN THE PLAYOFFS.

More importantly - lets put the strawman accusations to rest please.

Let's move past Rose + Noah. What changes can be made that move us from the SECOND BEST PLAYOFF team in the East to the BEST PLAYOFF TEAM IN THE East?

Do tell.

It still doesn't work. B/c while we may have been the 2nd best team in the conference this year (and that is arguable - just b/c we played Cleveland tougher doesn't mean we would have beat an Atl team that swept us during the regular season) we certainly weren't in the top 4 for the title. It just so happens all the best teams play in the West. Last year we were probably the 6th or 7th best team in the league depending on how you view atl and memphis. But in 2010-11 and again 11-12 we were among the top 3 or 4 teams in the entire league. We were in the favorites category. Now we're in the next tier.

[musiqsoulchild]

Lets reframe my argument:

What is the meaning of the word IMPROVEMENT? For me it means to move from a worse state to a better state.

What moves are out there ( non-Rose, non - Noah, non - Taj) that are going to IMPROVE us from #2 in the East to #1?

Anybody?

Your argument is the wrong argument there no moves to move us past Cleveland on paper. Nor Golden State, or likely San Antonio.

But these are arbitrary metrics anyway, if Cleveland was only 1% better than us, then would a move that makes us 2% better suddenly be worth making, but now its not because Cleveland is 5% better or something?

It's a silly yardstick, the goal should be to get better, PERIOD. By a little, by a lot, by a tiny bit.

I am glad we BOTH see it the same way.

This ENTIRE discussion is academic then --- Cleveland is #1, Chicago is #2.

Where we differ is that you (and a lot of other posters) think that we can do a lot more to improve marginal rotational spots.

I disagree because we did EVERYTHING we could this season:

1) Stole a solid piece in the draft
2) Used early bird for Dunleavy
3) Paid Jimmy to stay
4) Paid Thibs to leave
5) Paid Fred to do better
5) Kept all of our un-guaranteed salary
6) Didnt salary dump anyone
7) Used MMLE
8) Projecting to pay LT

^^^^ What more is left to do?

Wether you agree/disagree on the quality of roster pieces acquired by the above means is a COMPLETELY different thread. But, lets NOT pretend that the FO did'nt go balls to the wall this offseason AND the last one (amnestying Boozer).

Wether you think Dunleavy is better than Afflalo is a subjective argument - its by no means evidence of INACTION.

[musiqsoulchild]

Actually Atlanta was 2nd. They had a better record and made it to the ECF. We made it to the 2nd round, same as the Wizards.



"We can't be the best on paper anyway" Strawman for the hundreth time. Therefore give up and stop trying to get better.

I should qualify every sentence I speak - it feels like that kind of thread.

We were the second best team in the PLAYOFFS. Cleveland beat Atlanta 4-0 / they beat us 4-2. Remember - Atlanta's injuries dont count by your logic.

Ditto in 2011 - We were the second best team in 2011 IN THE PLAYOFFS.

More importantly - lets put the strawman accusations to rest please.

Let's move past Rose + Noah. What changes can be made that move us from the SECOND BEST PLAYOFF team in the East to the BEST PLAYOFF TEAM IN THE East?

Do tell.

It still doesn't work. B/c while we may have been the 2nd best team in the conference this year (and that is arguable - just b/c we played Cleveland tougher doesn't mean we would have beat an Atl team that swept us during the regular season) we certainly weren't in the top 4 for the title. It just so happens all the best teams play in the West. Last year we were probably the 6th or 7th best team in the league depending on how you view atl and memphis. But in 2010-11 and again 11-12 we were among the top 3 or 4 teams in the entire league. We were in the favorites category. Now we're in the next tier.

In 2012, we finished in the first round - according to Re and you - that puts us as the 7th best team in the East and the 14th best in the NBA.

Because - remember - we have to ignore Derrick's injuries.

There is just way too much mental gymanstics going on to ram home a non-existent point. Or at best a miniscule point - when seen under a microscope set to its largest magnification factor.

[Rerisen]

I am glad we BOTH see it the same way.

This ENTIRE discussion is academic then --- Cleveland is #1, Chicago is #2.

Where we differ is that you (and a lot of other posters) think that we can do a lot more to improve marginal rotational spots.

I disagree because we did EVERYTHING we could this season:

1) Stole a solid piece in the draft
2) Used early bird for Dunleavy
3) Paid Jimmy to stay
4) Paid Thibs to leave
5) Paid Fred to do better
5) Kept all of our un-guaranteed salary
6) Didnt salary dump anyone
7) Used MMLE
8) Projecting to pay LT

^^^^ What more is left to do?

Wether you agree/disagree on the quality of roster pieces acquired by the above means is a COMPLETELY different thread. But, lets NOT pretend that the FO went balls to the wall this offseason AND the last one (amnestying Boozer).

Wether you think Dunleavy is better than Afflalo is a subjective argument - its by no means evidence of INACTION.

We have the exact same weaknesses as last season, question marks and unknowns at the 2nd wing. Therefore lining up a starter SF that should ideally be a bench player. Too many bigs that can't play the minutes they all deserve, and who are therefore inefficient salary expenditures, and a weak backup PG that failed miserably in the payoffs, while also in the important role of backing up a constant injury concern starter.

What 'more' is to be done, I don't see that we did anything other than housekeeping, resigning our players and using one low draft pick. What did we do to get better? Fire a guy that was a top 3 coach in the league 4 out of the last 5 years?

[musiqsoulchild]

I am glad we BOTH see it the same way.

This ENTIRE discussion is academic then --- Cleveland is #1, Chicago is #2.

Where we differ is that you (and a lot of other posters) think that we can do a lot more to improve marginal rotational spots.

I disagree because we did EVERYTHING we could this season:

1) Stole a solid piece in the draft
2) Used early bird for Dunleavy
3) Paid Jimmy to stay
4) Paid Thibs to leave
5) Paid Fred to do better
5) Kept all of our un-guaranteed salary
6) Didnt salary dump anyone
7) Used MMLE
8) Projecting to pay LT

^^^^ What more is left to do?

Wether you agree/disagree on the quality of roster pieces acquired by the above means is a COMPLETELY different thread. But, lets NOT pretend that the FO went balls to the wall this offseason AND the last one (amnestying Boozer).

Wether you think Dunleavy is better than Afflalo is a subjective argument - its by no means evidence of INACTION.

We have the exact same weaknesses as last season, question marks and unknowns at the 2nd wing. Therefore lining up a starter SF that should ideally be a bench player. Too many bigs that can't play the minutes they all deserve, and who are therefore inefficient salary expenditures, and a weak backup PG that failed miserably in the payoffs, while also in the important role of backing up a constant injury concern starter.

What 'more' is to be done, I don't see that we did anything other than housekeeping, resigning our players and using one low draft pick. What did we do to get better? Fire a guy that was a top 3 coach in the league 4 out of the last 5 years?

Thats exactly what happens when you are in a non-cap space year. See Cleveland's off-season for the definition of status quo.

The BEST you can do is pay a premium to retain your own players and draft well.

We might have addressed the wing situation - a trivial, non-needle moving issue - by trading Taj. Who had surgery before the off-season officially started.

[Rerisen]

As for the arrogant, hubristic mantra that we are the '2nd best team in the East' I have no idea if we would have beat Atlanta in a series last year, or even the Wizards. Go ask the Wizards forum, they think they would have beat US.

And I have no idea if we'll be better than the newly minted Heat either.

But on paper we look a lot closer to all those teams than we do to Cleveland. Maybe we should stop worrying about passing Cleveland, indeed impossible on paper, and worry about putting more space between us and the rest of the 2nd tier competition, and in the process just increasing our odds however much we can to even upset the Cavs.

[musiqsoulchild]

Lets reframe my argument:

What is the meaning of the word IMPROVEMENT? For me it means to move from a worse state to a better state.

What moves are out there ( non-Rose, non - Noah, non - Taj) that are going to IMPROVE us from #2 in the East to #1?

Anybody?

Your argument is the wrong argument, that hardly anyone else cares about except you, as a last ditch context to defend the status quo. There are no moves to move us past Cleveland on paper. Nor Golden State, or likely San Antonio.

But these are arbitrary metrics anyway, if Cleveland was only 1% better than us, then would a move that makes us 2% better suddenly be worth making, but now its not because Cleveland is 5% better or something?

It's a silly yardstick, the goal should be to get better, PERIOD. By a little, by a lot, by a tiny bit. With all the means at your disposal. Clearly per the thread, there is one means at our disposal we don't like to use, or simply are very bad at using.

I have never heard of a strategy where the end goal is to be the 2nd best team in your conference (not that we have even proven that) and once you think you are, to just be happy to stop trying to get any better if you can't subjectively become 1st.

A lot of people on the board care about it - this thread is 20 pages long (thats your evidence).

We understand that this season is a wait and watch season. An assement, an evaluation and a test of inner capacity of this team is going to ensue until we hit the 2016 offseason ( Sactown pick + Our pick + cap room)

Its a solid team as is - like I said - #2 in the East, only behind Cleveland.

[musiqsoulchild]

As for the arrogant, hubristic mantra that we are the '2nd best team in the East' I have no idea if we would have beat Atlanta in a series last year, or even the Wizards. Go ask the Wizards forum, they think they would have beat US.

And I have no idea if we'll be better than the newly minted Heat either.

But on paper we look a lot closer to all those teams than we do to Cleveland. Maybe we should stop worrying about passing Cleveland, indeed impossible on paper, and worry about putting more space between us and the rest of the 2nd tier competition, and in the process just increasing our odds however much we can to even upset the Cavs.

To call the Chicago Bulls the #2 team in the East is hubristic and arrogant now?

Ok, we''ll go with your evaluation of the Bulls:

So, if we are the 5th best team in the East - will a backup SF catapult us to #2?

[Rerisen]

A lot of people on the board care about it - this thread is 20 pages long (thats your evidence).

What you said is not what the thread is about.

It's not about whether any move that makes us better but doesn't put us past Cleveland would be worthless. I'm pretty confident most would not agree with that.