The next step in Butler's evolution?

[Stratmaster]

Bulls have always played at a slow pace in Thibs era. I'm not necessarily knocking him on that, but it's just a fact. Last year was the fastest we had played and yet we still finished 23rd in pace.

I'd say that's on both the FO and Thibs. The FO signed two ground-bound, old school 4s as free agents, not the new school runners. The FO also signed Mike and Kirk as key roster pieces. I don't think any coach could make a squad with those guys play truly fast.

On the other hand ... yeah. Thibs made both lineup and tactics decisions that slowed the team. I won't argue with that, and I don't think anybody else would either.

Fast breaks don't require 4 guys to run, and MDG is a very solid uptempo piece on 2nd tier fast breaks (spotting a player at the 3 point line). The Bulls lack of fast break impact over the last few years is pretty simple in my eyes, and it wasn't Thibs, the front office, or the players lack of execution. It was injured personnel at PG. Derrick Rose missed most of the last 4 seasons until last year, and was still ramping up last season. The slew of either defensive minded (Hinrich) or offensive 3 point launching midgets at PG is to me the main reason the Bulls never got to the point of having the fast break be a real weapon for them.

[Stratmaster]

Bulls have always played at a slow pace in Thibs era. I'm not necessarily knocking him on that, but it's just a fact. Last year was the fastest we had played and yet we still finished 23rd in pace.

I'd say that's on both the FO and Thibs. The FO signed two ground-bound, old school 4s as free agents, not the new school runners. The FO also signed Mike and Kirk as key roster pieces. I don't think any coach could make a squad with those guys play truly fast.

On the other hand ... yeah. Thibs made both lineup and tactics decisions that slowed the team. I won't argue with that, and I don't think anybody else would either.

Fast breaks don't require 4 guys to run, and MDG is a very solid uptempo piece on 2nd tier fast breaks (spotting a player at the 3 point line). The Bulls lack of fast break impact over the last few years is pretty simple in my eyes, and it wasn't Thibs, the front office, or the players lack of execution. It was injured personnel at PG. Derrick Rose missed most of the last 4 seasons until last year, and was still ramping up last season. The slew of either defensive minded (Hinrich) or offensive 3 point launching midgets at PG is to me the main reason the Bulls never got to the point of having the fast break be a real weapon for them.

And not only is MDG a solid uptempo piece, that MDJ guy is pretty good at that role too

[mj234eva]

Last season Jimmy averaged 18.6, 5.4 rebounds (3.8 defensive), and 3 assists per game PER 36 mins.

For me, the next step will be to increase those numbers across the board. Particularly in the defensive rebound category and in assists.

I feel like on fast breaks, he tended to drop his head and look to score a bit more than he should have. He wasn't as bad as Deng, because at least Jimmy usually generated a foul or scored...and not a TO like Deng. But better passing awareness on the break, would be nice. He says he's been working on his handling, so hopefully we see the results of that (he's already greatly improved from yr to yr).

As far as averages go, PER 36 I think he can get to 21-22 ppg, 6-7 rebounds, and 4-5 assists.

[Ice Man]

MDG is a very solid uptempo piece on 2nd tier fast breaks

I can't recall any wing being blocked so often on a fast break as Mike last year. They catch him, and then when he doesn't elevate they block him. But sure, he's good for the transition 3.

[Rerisen]

The pace the team played at was definitely in Thibs mold.

If you started Boozer/Pau next to Jo, and had Mike on the wing, you'd have a crappy fast-break team that played at a slow pace too.

Will Fred do differently? We shall see. I will say this, at least in spring 2014, after the Deng trade, with a rookie Snell, with no Niko and no McDermott, Thibs had no choice at all but to play slow. Nobody could have coached that squad and done any differently. (I also don't think that last year's squad would have been well served by playing faster, but I will grant that point is up for debate.)

Bulls have always played at a slow pace in Thibs era. I'm not necessarily knocking him on that, but it's just a fact. Last year was the fastest we had played and yet we still finished 23rd in pace.

There's a difference between deliberately getting into your half court offense slow, and running it methodical (which is a different discussion we could have) vs the team failing to capitalize on fastbreak opportunities when the defense is not set yet.

I'm not talking about when we were taking it out of the opponents basket, obviously there we were a grind it down the floor team. But on misses, long rebounds, turnovers, the team was still bad at transition, and it wasn't Thibs it was the personnel and execution.

These are just instinct and talent plays, there isn't a designed plan for when a ball scoots loose on the floor and your team comes up with it after a mad scramble and has a 4 on 2 or whatever. Your guys either know how and have the talent to get a freelance score or they don't.

The LeBron Heat were a slow paced team by and large, but they would destroy you on turnovers and transition opportunities. That is something we may well have to address with lineup and even personnel changes.

[Ice Man]

These are just instinct and talent plays, there isn't a designed plan for when a ball scoots loose on the floor and your team comes up with it after a mad scramble and has a 4 on 2 or whatever. Your guys either know how and have the talent to get a freelance score or they don't.

That problem is related to the well-known problem of the Bulls struggling late in games when the PG is trapped. He gets doubled, he gives the ball up, the Bulls temporarily have a 4v3 situation, and then they (mostly) fail. It's better now than when the 4 were Jo, Boozer, Deng, and Bogans/Brewer/Korver, which is a nightmare of non-ballhandling, but I think even with the roster changes the Bulls still aren't good at those type of open-court situations. But maybe no longer just bad.

Which is a longwinded way of saying the Bulls used to be loaded with system guys, but perhaps not so much today.

[RedBulls23]

If you started Boozer/Pau next to Jo, and had Mike on the wing, you'd have a crappy fast-break team that played at a slow pace too.

Will Fred do differently? We shall see. I will say this, at least in spring 2014, after the Deng trade, with a rookie Snell, with no Niko and no McDermott, Thibs had no choice at all but to play slow. Nobody could have coached that squad and done any differently. (I also don't think that last year's squad would have been well served by playing faster, but I will grant that point is up for debate.)

Bulls have always played at a slow pace in Thibs era. I'm not necessarily knocking him on that, but it's just a fact. Last year was the fastest we had played and yet we still finished 23rd in pace.

There's a difference between deliberately getting into your half court offense slow, and running it methodical (which is a different discussion we could have) vs the team failing to capitalize on fastbreak opportunities when the defense is not set yet.

I'm not talking about when we were taking it out of the opponents basket, obviously there we were a grind it down the floor team. But on misses, long rebounds, turnovers, the team was still bad at transition, and it wasn't Thibs it was the personnel and execution.

These are just instinct and talent plays, there isn't a designed plan for when a ball scoots loose on the floor and your team comes up with it after a mad scramble and has a 4 on 2 or whatever. Your guys either know how and have the talent to get a freelance score or they don't.

The LeBron Heat were a slow paced team by and large, but they would destroy you on turnovers and transition opportunities. That is something we may well have to address with lineup and even personnel changes.

We will see how much it was purely just personnel. While I definitely agree that the team needs to get more athletic, I think it also had to do with how often we focused/worked on offense during practice.

It will he interesting to see if any of it gets cleaned up with Hoiberg.

[Rerisen]

We will see how much it was purely just personnel. While I definitely agree that the team needs to get more athletic, I think it also had to do with how often we focused/worked on offense during practice.

It will he interesting to see if any of it gets cleaned up with Hoiberg.

It could get better purely on the roster transitioning to younger players who can get up and down better. If Pau, Kirk and Dunleavy see reduced time and guys like Snell, Doug, Mirotic, even Taj or Noah recovering play more - and are worth playing more, other words got better, then we'll probably do better, but that won't necessarily mean they practiced it better.

[bentheredengthat]

It is highly debatable that our problem in the playoffs was more defense than offense. I'm not seeing much in support of that. We scored over 100 points once in the series.

OK...then the Warriors won the NBA Championship because they had the best defense just as much as because they had a good offense. We didn't even beat Cleveland because we were mediocre at both offense and defense. You have to be able to get stops at critical times. That is what separates the great from the good and the good from the suck when it really matters.

...your defense doesn't need to get much better if you can avoid 8 minute scoring droughts.

Hope we can avoid that in the playoffs in the future.

[BullBearBidness]

Next step in Butler's evolution?

Pink nails, of course!
[tweet]https://twitter.com/OnlyTheNBA/status/635251745023762432[/tweet]

Damn

[johnnyvann840]

It is highly debatable that our problem in the playoffs was more defense than offense. I'm not seeing much in support of that. We scored over 100 points once in the series.

OK...then the Warriors won the NBA Championship because they had the best defense just as much as because they had a good offense. We didn't even beat Cleveland because we were mediocre at both offense and defense. You have to be able to get stops at critical times. That is what separates the great from the good and the good from the suck when it really matters.

...your defense doesn't need to get much better if you can avoid 8 minute scoring droughts.

Hope we can avoid that in the playoffs in the future.

The Bulls defense has to be a hell of a lot better than it was last season if we seriously want to contend. I don't care if the offense is as good as Golden State was last year.... without a huge step up on both sides of the ball, we are pretenders, anyway.

[YettiBull]

THe Bulls problem is not Rose and Butler in the playoffs. It was the lack of surrounding players that can score.

[johnnyvann840]

THe Bulls problem is not Rose and Butler in the playoffs. It was the lack of surrounding players that can score.

The Bulls problem was more than that. It was that. It was inconsistent play from Derrick. He was great or he was bad. Not much in between. The biggest problems were not having Pau as a go to after he went down. Not having an effective back up PG- we crumbled when Rose was off the floor, but huge, huge issue was not being able to stop the ball.. and not being able to defend and get stops. You have to score just to stay in the game, you have to be able to get stops at critical times, to win.

[Stratmaster]

MDG is a very solid uptempo piece on 2nd tier fast breaks

I can't recall any wing being blocked so often on a fast break as Mike last year. They catch him, and then when he doesn't elevate they block him. But sure, he's good for the transition 3.

Agreed...He needs to be a wing on the break who stops at the 3 point line for 21nd tier transition threes. The idea that he isn't suited for a Hoiberg offense is misplaced. He can be a very strong up-tempo player.

Some people equate foot speed with up-tempo value. These guys aren't running 100 yard dashes. They are going foul line to (in MDJ's case) 3 point line. He is 6'9". Those are some big steps.

[Ice Man]

Agreed...He needs to be a wing on the break who stops at the 3 point line for 21nd tier transition threes. The idea that he isn't suited for a Hoiberg offense is misplaced. He can be a very strong up-tempo player.

Some people equate foot speed with up-tempo value. These guys aren't running 100 yard dashes. They are going foul line to (in MDJ's case) 3 point line. He is 6'9". Those are some big steps.

OK, got it. I agree with all that.

[kodo]

MDG is a very solid uptempo piece on 2nd tier fast breaks

I can't recall any wing being blocked so often on a fast break as Mike last year. They catch him, and then when he doesn't elevate they block him. But sure, he's good for the transition 3.

Agreed...He needs to be a wing on the break who stops at the 3 point line for 21nd tier transition threes. The idea that he isn't suited for a Hoiberg offense is misplaced. He can be a very strong up-tempo player.

Some people equate foot speed with up-tempo value. These guys aren't running 100 yard dashes. They are going foul line to (in MDJ's case) 3 point line. He is 6'9". Those are some big steps.

Agreed...teams like GS & Atlanta can score in transition because most fast breaks have defenders headed into the paint leaving shooters open.

[PaKii94]

I think we can now definitively say it Yes Jimmy Butler can play PG.

[johnnyvann840]

EDIT:
found it
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1337097&start=60#start_here
Jimmy went from bench player-> deng caliber-> legit allstar caliber-> near MVP caliber next year?

viewtopic.php?p=41342110#p41342110

lol nice you called it. I had high hopes for him too but he definitely exceeded my expectations. Here is what I called for him when he was breaking out in 2012-2013:

Worst Case Scenario:Efficient 3-D Guy
13/6/2/.6 blks/1.4 stls on 46/40/80 percentage with 8 FGA/2 3PA/ 4 FTA 38 mpg.

This stat line is basically Jimmy’s stat line post all star with a bit lower 3p% because teams will have better scouting reports but not a too big drop because of the open looks Jimmy B will get due to Rose’s abilities. Worst comes to worse, Jimmy basically remains the same tenacious defender, allowing the offense to come to him.

Best Case Scenario: The Leap to Stardom
18.3/8/4/.6 blks/ 1.5 stls on 43/38/85 with 10 FGA/4 3PA/6 FTA 38 mpg

Do these two stat lines look similar?
A: 12/5.5/2/.6 blks/1.6 stls on 44/39/80
B: 11/5/2/.6 blks/1.4 stls on 45/48/80

Besides the different 3pt%, everything else is closely the same. Line A is Paul George’s sophomore year. Line B is Jimmy’s sophomore years post all-star stat line when he earned playing time.

Let’s see PG’s stat line from last year: 17.4/7.6/4.1/.65 blks/1.8 stls on 42/36/80. Last year PG exploded with his All-Star selection and MIP award.There has been news that Jimmy has been working hard all summer, so I can honestly see the same thing happening for his third year if he continues to improve on his offense and ball handling skills.This would be high expectations but one can dream right?

PG however, was forced into the primary offensive weapon role resulting in poor efficiency. Next to rose I don't think Jimmy will become a volume scorer thus just efficient points. If he does take the next step. I can see it at higher efficiency than PG's this year

Realistic Scenario: Alfred(Buckets) running the hidden operations in the batcave for Batman (Rose)
16.5/6.5/3/.6/1.5 on 47/42/83 with 8.5 FGA/3.5 3PA/5 FTA

Realistically, this is the stat line i expect by next year’s end. I find it impossible to believe that Jimmy won’t improve from last year and continue to be a 3-D player. He has such a strong work ethic along with all the right tools to excel (elite ability to draw fouls, athleticism, BB IQ, crashing the glass, etc.).
I also find it hard to believe that Rose also wouldn’t help improve his stats. It has been statistically shown that Rose improves the %s of everyone who is on the floor with him. He will help improve Jimmy’s already efficient FG%. With the open looks he will get by Rose, I expect his 3P% to stay in at least the low 40s. improved finishing, improved handles, improved post game, and hes a strong contender for at least MIP award.
I can see him being Deng 2.0, the “oil” guy, the consistent guy in the background who keeps the whole operation running smoothly. providing efficient points with elite defense.

Doing this has made me even more excited for the season to begin. I cant wait to see some delicious dunks served by JImmy G. Buckets

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=36920052#p36920052

I even compared him to Paul George's breakout season which is what most people compared last year to
I did expect it in 2013-2014 but a year later aint bad

viewtopic.php?p=41342110#p41342110

That was from OCT, 2014.

[johnnyvann840]

I think we can now definitively say it Yes Jimmy Butler can play PG.

Yup.. Funny that 6 years ago, many people didn't think Jimmy could even play SG let alone PG. That thread asking who we could get to be our SG prior to the 2014-15 season. When Jimmy had that monster preseason showing off his new skills. But, I didn't think at that point he would ever have the PG skills he does today. He's a legit playmaker and ballhandler.. and a legit closer.

[PaKii94]

I think we can now definitively say it Yes Jimmy Butler can play PG.

Yup.. Funny that 6 years ago, many people didn't think Jimmy could even play SG let alone PG. That thread asking who we could get to be our SG prior to the 2014-15 season. When Jimmy had that monster preseason showing off his new skills. But, I didn't think at that point he would ever have the PG skills he does today. He's a legit playmaker and ballhandler.. and a legit closer.

Well experience/nba reps/maturity does help with it, but Jimmy showed similar play making abilities long before including on the bulls. He flashed multiple 7+ assist games with rose out in 15 ( only a few games tho) and then averaged near a 25 pt triple double in 16 with rose out extended periods.

I think the sample size in 16 was pretty big (~20 games) and he proved he was capable of it back then. What people forget was his supporting cast was pretty bad. Iirc, bulls with jimmy off the floor were like 29th in the nba and with him they were like 12. It's hard to get high number of assists consistently when your teammates can't hit shots.

Also the scoring ability was there too. Remember the 40 bombs he had? (He was Toronto's daddy!). People criticized him for "ball hogging" and isoing too much but he was playing to win. He got his efficient points and then you slow the game down and grind it out. Thib's way.

It's just with the heat he's able to put it all together due to the people around him and thankfully it happened on the biggest stage in NBA basketball against the league biggest star for the past two decades