KC: Calderon likely starter, Dougie may be a 4 (normally)

[Proven_Winner]

I think the "trade Butler for middling/ build with Butler as your franchise" choice being repeated on this forum is a false ultimatum. If Butler is retained, that doesn't mean the team is being built around him any more than the team would be being built around Kris Dunn if the Bulls traded for him.

Strongly disagree. Because if you have Dunn instead of Butler, you are accepting that additional core pieces come from the next two drafts. Butler takes you out of that high reward possibility. Its very different.

This looks similar to the years the Celtics rebuilt with Pierce.

This is the best and only encouraging comparison. Problem is Pierce's teams were waaaaay worse than our Bulls will be and garnered high draft pick slots Ainge could trade to turn it around.

And ironically, Pierce in Boston only worked due to the extremely unusual circumstance of there existing two more Pierces in the NBA (Allen and Garnett) whose teams languished like we are about to language with a "not good enough superstar" before they traded them. Odds are, we end up being the guy who trades the Garnett/Allen (Butler) to the team with Pierce. Not the Pierce team who pulled it off. We'll be too mediocre in the interim to have the assets to be the recipient.

So while its an interesting comparison, in my view it cements the opposing view.

We **** up not trading Butler. I'm now trying to figure out how to be creative with the chosen path and try to drink something approximately lemonade.

I agree with you Duck but what path have we chosen? You said we aren't the pierce team so we can't get a high pick. You also said we are the Allen and Garnett team so we're not good enough to do anything but be mediocre. That doesn't sound like a good path.

[Chi]

jesus how negative do you have to be to think the bulls are incapable of signing someone on the level of rajon rondo in free agency

I don't understand... When did Rajon Rondo become trash in this league?

He just had arguably the best season of his career.

What is everyone seeing that I didn't?

[nomorezorro]

rondo is a potentially productive player in the right situation, but he's a severely flawed guy on the wrong side of 30 who was on a general downward trajectory before last year

my point is that people have evolved from "no superstar free agent wants to sign with the bulls" to "no free agent ever wants to sign with the bulls," which is insane

as if the universe wanted to make this point incredibly easy to make, when i googled 'rajon rondo,' this was one of the top headlines

[Proven_Winner]

What's so bad about Rondo?

Attitude.

Rondo needs a coach who can talk to him and he can sort of bond with. Hasn't found that guy since Doc Rivers. Rondo even admitted he has anger issues.

And yet even in one of the most disfunctional situations in the entire league where he was forced to be the old vet leader of the team, he had arguable his best season of his career...

I was only answering the question. I'm not opposed to rondo never said he was bad. All I said was he needs someone who can handle his attitude and that's the straight up truth. You just said he had arguably the best year of his career right? So then why do you rarely hear anything about him going back to the Kings. It's that attitude man. Rondo has always been great player but his play is nullified by his attitude. If you can control Rondo's attitude then you will get the most out of him.

[Leslie Forman]

What's so bad about Rondo?

He's just not that good. Still a terrible scorer who's reputation is inflated from gratuitous assist numbers.

His assists are the equivalent of Derrick Rose's points IMO. People think those big numbers are actually signs of usefulness when they actually mean that the team doesn't have enough talent.

[DuckIII]

I agree with you Duck but what path have we chosen? You said we aren't the pierce team so we can't get a high pick. You also said we are the Allen and Garnett team so we're not good enough to do anything but be mediocre. That doesn't sound like a good path.

Its not a good path! That's what I'm saying. I just tend to use too many words and explanations to get there.

We aren't doing the right thing here. So I'm playing both sides of it. I'm analyzing what is best to do, accepting the wrong path being chosen, while at the same time continuing to note we're doing he wrong thing.

The FO did the right thing by trading Rose. They did the right thing drafting Valentine. But those two rights still weigh less in balance than the wrong of not trading Butler to start over.

[Proven_Winner]

I agree with you Duck but what path have we chosen? You said we aren't the pierce team so we can't get a high pick. You also said we are the Allen and Garnett team so we're not good enough to do anything but be mediocre. That doesn't sound like a good path.

Its not a good path! That's what I'm saying. I just tend to use too many words and explanations to get there.

We aren't doing the right thing here. So I'm playing both sides of it. I'm analyzing what is best to do, accepting the wrong path being chosen, while at the same time continuing to note we're doing he wrong thing.

The FO did the right thing by trading Rose. They did the right thing drafting Valentine. But those two rights still weigh less in balance than the wrong of not trading Butler to start over.

Ahhh I see. Yea as much as I miss Rose we needed to trade him but that quickly can be considered a wrong if we just pay a bunch of FA to just be a mediocre team. If we become mediocre this year we should've just kept Rose to save face and look like good guys.

Honestly I'd rather keep butler and blow up everything else and become a bad team with one star. Or blow everything up and get a high pick with a lot of money. I see no advantages in being mediocre. It doesn't make us look good, it's not entertaining, and Big FA aren't coming here just because we continually scrap into the playoffs.

Without confusing you I'm 100% in agreement with you.

[Chi]

Attitude.

Rondo needs a coach who can talk to him and he can sort of bond with. Hasn't found that guy since Doc Rivers. Rondo even admitted he has anger issues.

And yet even in one of the most disfunctional situations in the entire league where he was forced to be the old vet leader of the team, he had arguable his best season of his career...

I was only answering the question. I'm not opposed to rondo never said he was bad. All I said was he needs someone who can handle his attitude and that's the straight up truth. You just said he had arguably the best year of his career right? So then why do you rarely hear anything about him going back to the Kings. It's that attitude man. Rondo has always been great player but his play is nullified by his attitude. If you can control Rondo's attitude then you will get the most out of him.

I wasn't attacking you, I was only responding too...

But his name is being tossed around here like he's AJ Guyton or some other trash level player. He just almost averaged a triple double on a terrible AND disfunctional team.

Then they say he has "attitude problems" which of course is multiplied into discreetly meaning "he's a lunatic" stay away from him. Being in the most disfunctional situation the NBA playing with the most disfunctional player known to our league, and for a team that every player hates the coach and yet I don't even recall a single negative comment from Rondo last year.

I recall several players trashing the coach and him trashing them back (or vice versa) yet I don't remember that psycho Rondo losing it last year. I even remember quire boys like Willie Cauley-Stein taking shots in the media about the team and coach.

But Rondo is the guy that needs to be avoided.

Again, I am only responding to your post, but I'm speaking to those against Rondo. There must be something I missed...

[Minalt]

Uhhh, Free Agency hasn't even started yet. Of course he is penciled in as our starter.

[bad knees]

Starting over is a five year process if you are lucky. We have another and better option - getting two max FAs to pair with Jimmy. We're far better off giving that a shot than condemning ourselves to a rebuild with the pain and limited prospects that it entails.

I have no problem with declaring PG to be Calderon's job to lose. No entitlement minutes for anyone. If Grant can't beat him out, then we should know that. Same for McD and MDJ. The young guys should get opportunities but it would be a mistake to gift them minutes. We need to create a culture where excellence is expected.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Chi]

What's so bad about Rondo?

He's just not that good. Still a terrible scorer who's reputation is inflated from gratuitous assist numbers.

His assists are the equivalent of Derrick Rose's points IMO. People think those big numbers are actually signs of usefulness when they actually mean that the team doesn't have enough talent.

I guess it's based on perception.

What you see as a "Terrible scorer" I see as a guy who knows his role and thrives at it, never trying to do things that are out of his character on the court.

What you see as "gratuitous assist numbers" I see as being an amazing passer that is great at setting up teammates exactly where and when they like to get the ball and making others better by getting them easy baskets in the flow of the offense.

Rondo is one of the wisest and hardest playing players in the NBA. You don't just pass the ball a lot and just happen to magically rack up assist numbers like that. Studying and knowing your opponents tendencies as well as knowing the strengths and comfort zones of every player on your team has a hell of a lot to do with it. Consistently making pinpoint passes no matter what the defensive structure he's going against that night is the other half of that.

Rondo is a certified genius on the court just like J.Kidd, Stockton, & Magic and others were before him. Somehow his name has become tarnished to the point that basketball fans don't even recognize that he's a positive to teams that he's on anymore.

[MGB8]

Its not a good path! That's what I'm saying. I just tend to use too many words and explanations to get there.

We aren't doing the right thing here. So I'm playing both sides of it. I'm analyzing what is best to do, accepting the wrong path being chosen, while at the same time continuing to note we're doing he wrong thing.

The FO did the right thing by trading Rose. They did the right thing drafting Valentine. But those two rights still weigh less in balance than the wrong of not trading Butler to start over.

Even though I am highly critical of GarPax, I actually think they are playing this one correctly. Dunn was not value return for Butler. And while a Philly style tank might work, it very well might not - particularly when a culture of losing develops.

Butler isn't old and can handle 1-2 "wasted" seasons. I honestly think even Calderon will be fine as a limited minutes starter - he shot very well last season and the Knicks defensive woes go way beyond him (Afflalo once injured couldn't defend, Porzingis rookie wall, Melo being Melo).

Next year, the Bulls will again in all likelihood be a late lotto team. But they'll also probably get a decent Sacramento pick. If Mirotic or Portis develop into a starting level 4, McDermot shows he can be a starter, Grant shows promise as a rotation guy or better, and Valentine shows he belongs in the NBA... two more lotto picks and a heck of a lot of cap room on top of that foundation isn't such a terrible place to be.

Lot of ifs... But not despair worthy, either, IMO.

[dice]

What's so bad about Rondo?

He's just not that good. Still a terrible scorer who's reputation is inflated from gratuitous assist numbers.

His assists are the equivalent of Derrick Rose's points IMO. People think those big numbers are actually signs of usefulness when they actually mean that the team doesn't have enough talent.

that makes no sense

you recognize the irony in this, right? people said his assist numbers were so good in boston because he was surrounded by hall of famers

[dice]

Its not a good path! That's what I'm saying. I just tend to use too many words and explanations to get there.

We aren't doing the right thing here. So I'm playing both sides of it. I'm analyzing what is best to do, accepting the wrong path being chosen, while at the same time continuing to note we're doing he wrong thing.

The FO did the right thing by trading Rose. They did the right thing drafting Valentine. But those two rights still weigh less in balance than the wrong of not trading Butler to start over.

Even though I am highly critical of GarPax, I actually think they are playing this one correctly. Dunn was not value return for Butler

it wasn't just dunn. not by a longshot. it was dunn + crowder + minor asset + perhaps (as suggested on boston board) brooklyn 2018 first rounder

[R3AL1TY]

I can only see Doug at the 4 for few possessions of small ball, but I doubt Fred would want this majority of the game. I think the Bulls may be looking for a combo guard, which is why the Evan Turner rumor came up. And if they fail to get one, the final outcome will be Calderon vs Grant.

[MGB8]

Starting over is a five year process if you are lucky. We have another and better option - getting two max FAs to pair with Jimmy. We're far better off giving that a shot than condemning ourselves to a rebuild with the pain and limited prospects that it entails.

I have no problem with declaring PG to be Calderon's job to lose. No entitlement minutes for anyone. If Grant can't beat him out, then we should know that. Same for McD and MDJ. The young guys should get opportunities but it would be a mistake to gift them minutes. We need to create a culture where excellence is expected.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Agreed. Except that if I could get semi-decent value, I'd move MDJ. Not sure what that semi-decent value would look like, though. So probably keep him as a positive veteran influence. Though could see sending him to the Dixers (to be a good vet for them) in return for a talented longs got prospect like Christian Wood or Rashaun Holmes (or some similar kind of trade with a young team with too many raw prospects and a need for steady vets).

[MGB8]

Its not a good path! That's what I'm saying. I just tend to use too many words and explanations to get there.

We aren't doing the right thing here. So I'm playing both sides of it. I'm analyzing what is best to do, accepting the wrong path being chosen, while at the same time continuing to note we're doing he wrong thing.

The FO did the right thing by trading Rose. They did the right thing drafting Valentine. But those two rights still weigh less in balance than the wrong of not trading Butler to start over.

Even though I am highly critical of GarPax, I actually think they are playing this one correctly. Dunn was not value return for Butler

it wasn't just dunn. not by a longshot. it was dunn + crowder + minor asset + perhaps (as suggested on boston board) brooklyn 2018 first rounder

But it wasBoston who said "No, you are trying to rip us off." Dunn + Crowder you consider (probably need a little more). Dunn + Crowder + Brooklyn pick you jump on. But don't think either were actually possible.

[Leslie Forman]

that makes no sense

you recognize the irony in this, right? people said his assist numbers were so good in boston because he was surrounded by hall of famers

Yeah and those people were wrong. It's not a coincidence that's Rondo's impact rose as the big three's declined.

When a point guard plays with other high level, high usage scorers, their assists tend to go down, not up.

Rondo is a certified genius on the court just like J.Kidd, Stockton, & Magic and others were before him. Somehow his name has become tarnished to the point that basketball fans don't even recognize that he's a positive to teams that he's on anymore.

If he was even remotely as good as you think, the Kings would have been a helluva lot better than they were and he wouldn't have been such a disaster in Dallas.

[AirP.]

The reason McD is a ghost on O and lacks assists is because he is NOT a catch and shoot player. He needs the ball in his hands to create, either on the wing or in the post. We try to use him as a 3pt specialist but that is not his game. He's a scorer with a 3pt shot.

That may be true but when will he be a high enough option on the offense to be a positive on the court? I like McDermott, I just don't like him without great defense around him. So if you have Butler as your #1 and he plays a bunch of minutes, at best McDermott would be your #2 but I have to believe Mirotic will be that. If he's the 3rd option or lower why have him on the court?

I really don't think you're going very far with McDermott your #2 or #1 option in the NBA. If he ever gets "average" on defense or can play some productive minutes as a stretch 4, I don't know if he's ever going to be a positive on the court for a good team.

[Chi]

that makes no sense

you recognize the irony in this, right? people said his assist numbers were so good in boston because he was surrounded by hall of famers

Yeah and those people were wrong. It's not a coincidence that's Rondo's impact rose as the big three's declined.

When a point guard plays with other high level, high usage scorers, their assists tend to go down, not up.

Rondo is a certified genius on the court just like J.Kidd, Stockton, & Magic and others were before him. Somehow his name has become tarnished to the point that basketball fans don't even recognize that he's a positive to teams that he's on anymore.

If he was even remotely as good as you think, the Kings would have been a helluva lot better than they were and he wouldn't have been such a disaster in Dallas.

So was Kobe garbage those years the Lakers didn't make the playoffs? Is Jimmy Butler trash right now too? John Wall? This is the NBA with tons of great players. They can't all succeed every year. And by your logic everyone who doesn't is either weak or overrated or something like that.

And Dallas was a terrible fit for his play style. I never said any good player can play anywhere and thrive, but apparently that's how you think it goes...

But put a player with a quality and unique skill set in a good fitting situation and that Championship ring that he already possesses shows you exactly what will happen. I'm not saying that the Bulls are definitely that spot, but I'm still waiting to here a reasonable response as to just why we definitely are not...