The Bulls plan, 2 max players; "It's all about '17" - Source

[Concept Coop]

Can I ask why?

Because he's really good at basketball. Why is he a bad fit next to Butler? They play different positions and are two completely different players.

He is good, but he is also ball dominant and not a team player. That is why Durant is considering leaving. DRose was a scoring PG which is why Bulls want a facilitator. Westbrook is the opposite of a facilitator and will also bump heads with Jimmy on leadership of the team. And he isn't humble like Derrick was.

How is he not a team player? The guy loves to set his teammates up. He averaged 10 assists (11 in the playoffs) and only 18 shots per game last year.

[kurtatx]

Can I ask why?

Because he's really good at basketball. Why is he a bad fit next to Butler? They play different positions and are two completely different players.

He is good, but he is also ball dominant and not a team player. That is why Durant is considering leaving. DRose was a scoring PG which is why Bulls want a facilitator. Westbrook is the opposite of a facilitator and will also bump heads with Jimmy on leadership of the team. And he isn't humble like Derrick was.

Don't believe this for a second. Durant isn't really considering leaving. I would be shocked if he didn't try to go somewhere with Westbrook.

[bennjuiced34]

Kyle Lowry is our prize next year if we stand pat with Jimmy. I'm not sure what our prize is if we acquire picks, but I like the unknown better than the prize I know I'll probably get.

We turn the space for two max contracts into Kyle Lowry? Let's say Lowry/Gobert, which isn't a homerun. We're still better off than we'd be blowing it up, imo. That team makes noise.

So we become a slightly better version of Toronto? Did you see Lowry in the playoffs?

I know the Bulls would never do it, but I'd be down for a Wade-tank. Save Jimmy a year, get a high pick and rebuild that way.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

[Concept Coop]

Just look at the list of 2017 UFA's and RFA's that are available....the cupboard is threadbare.

2017 UFA's who are likely to get Maxed out:
LeBron James --- 0%
Derrick Rose ---- 0%
Blake Griffin --- some possibility
Russell Westbrook --- close to 0%
Serge Ibaka ---- No chance Orlando lets him go. 0%
Stephen Curry --- Lol %

2017 RFA's who are likely to get maxed out:
Victor Oladipo --- some possibility
Nerlens Noel ---- Some possibility
Steven Adams --- No chance.
Giannis Antetokounmpo --- Some possibility
Dennis Schröder --- 0%. Atlanta just got rid of Teague.
Gorgui Dieng --- Some possibility.

So you have Dieng and Noel - both of whom are rendered unnecessary by Robin Lopez.
And then you have a FARCICAL chance of getting Westbrook or Oladipo if OKC decides to pay one and let the other go.

That leaves you with Giannis AND Blake Griffin. If that is the 2017 , 2 Max FA plan kill me now with a serving of Harrison Barnes. I'll take that all day, everyday. And twice on July 1st, 2016.

Am I reading you right? Are you suggesting A) signing Giannis and Griffin would be a disappointment and B) No better than Giannis/Barnes?

Also, add the Jazz guys: Hayward/Gobert.

Spotrac didnt have Hayward for some reason.

Can you suggest a more exhaustive list -- I'll redo the work. Thanks!

Gobert is great - but you have to trade away Lopez first. Hayward fits, if you move Jimmy to the 3 - which I am totally OK with.

I wish I had a better list. Just noticed those two missing. As I live in Utah, I've heard a lot about their contracts.

I like both guys a lot. I think Gobert has more upside and downside. I like the idea of testing Hayward at the 4 and he's young enough to potentially have upside beyond what he's shown.

I think Gobert is certainly worth moving on from Lopez, personally. Gobert is the better player and as a raw 24 YO, there's certainly upside there, above and beyond his current (impressive) production.

[Payt10]

Can I ask why?

Because he's really good at basketball. Why is he a bad fit next to Butler? They play different positions and are two completely different players.

He is good, but he is also ball dominant and not a team player. That is why Durant is considering leaving. DRose was a scoring PG which is why Bulls want a facilitator. Westbrook is the opposite of a facilitator and will also bump heads with Jimmy on leadership of the team. And he isn't humble like Derrick was.

He was 2nd in the NBA in assists this year. He may not facilitate in a traditional sense, but he generates just about as many quality looks as any PG in the league because of the way he attacks the rim. Derrick used to be really good at this as well, but Westbrook takes it to another level.

If Durant leaves, I don't think it's because he hates Westbrook. By all accounts, the two are really good friends. Him wanting to leave probably has more to do with location and market than anything basketball related, unless he goes to GS.

Westbrook, by the same token, would probably leave for the same reasons. LA, NY, and CHI are the 3 places I could see him going if he chose to leave OKC. LA and NY more so than CHI, because it would enhance his fashion brand, which really seems to be important to him.

[Concept Coop]

Kyle Lowry is our prize next year if we stand pat with Jimmy. I'm not sure what our prize is if we acquire picks, but I like the unknown better than the prize I know I'll probably get.

We turn the space for two max contracts into Kyle Lowry? Let's say Lowry/Gobert, which isn't a homerun. We're still better off than we'd be blowing it up, imo. That team makes noise.

So we become a slightly better version of Toronto? Did you see Lowry in the playoffs?

I know the Bulls would never do it, but I'd be down for a Wade-tank. Save Jimmy a year, get a high pick and rebuild that way.

Slightly better? I strongly disagree with that. I think Lowry/Butler/Gobert is a lot better than Lowry/Derozan/Val.

Playoffs are a small sample size; Lowry wasn't healthy; and the Raptors system was garbage in the playoffs. I'm not convinced that the guy is mentally weak or just sucks in the spring.

Don't get me wrong, we'd still be a part or two away, but I think that's a better route than blowing it all up. Also, I am not suggesting Lowry is my preference. I am using him as a worst case, under the assumption that we did strike out on the top two tiers of FA.

[jnrjr79]

Just look at the list of 2017 UFA's and RFA's that are available....the cupboard is threadbare.

2017 UFA's who are likely to get Maxed out:
LeBron James --- 0%
Derrick Rose ---- 0%
Blake Griffin --- some possibility
Russell Westbrook --- close to 0%
Serge Ibaka ---- No chance Orlando lets him go. 0%
Stephen Curry --- Lol %

2017 RFA's who are likely to get maxed out:
Victor Oladipo --- some possibility
Nerlens Noel ---- Some possibility
Steven Adams --- No chance.
Giannis Antetokounmpo --- Some possibility
Dennis Schröder --- 0%. Atlanta just got rid of Teague.
Gorgui Dieng --- Some possibility.

So you have Dieng and Noel - both of whom are rendered unnecessary by Robin Lopez.
And then you have a FARCICAL chance of getting Westbrook or Oladipo if OKC decides to pay one and let the other go.

That leaves you with Giannis AND Blake Griffin. If that is the 2017 , 2 Max FA plan kill me now with a serving of Harrison Barnes. I'll take that all day, everyday. And twice on July 1st, 2016.

WTF? Greek Freak + Griffin is way, way better than signing Barnes this offseason.

[musiqsoulchild]

Just look at the list of 2017 UFA's and RFA's that are available....the cupboard is threadbare.

2017 UFA's who are likely to get Maxed out:
LeBron James --- 0%
Derrick Rose ---- 0%
Blake Griffin --- some possibility
Russell Westbrook --- close to 0%
Serge Ibaka ---- No chance Orlando lets him go. 0%
Stephen Curry --- Lol %

2017 RFA's who are likely to get maxed out:
Victor Oladipo --- some possibility
Nerlens Noel ---- Some possibility
Steven Adams --- No chance.
Giannis Antetokounmpo --- Some possibility
Dennis Schröder --- 0%. Atlanta just got rid of Teague.
Gorgui Dieng --- Some possibility.

So you have Dieng and Noel - both of whom are rendered unnecessary by Robin Lopez.
And then you have a FARCICAL chance of getting Westbrook or Oladipo if OKC decides to pay one and let the other go.

That leaves you with Giannis AND Blake Griffin. If that is the 2017 , 2 Max FA plan kill me now with a serving of Harrison Barnes. I'll take that all day, everyday. And twice on July 1st, 2016.

WTF? Greek Freak + Griffin is way, way better than signing Barnes this offseason.

Yes of course.

But what special ties other than money bind either of them to Chicago or this front office?

I can see Giannis wanting to move from a small market to a bigger market - but that doesnt hold true for Blake. And why would Milwaukee let Giannis go? He's not Un-Restricted. They'll just match whatever offer he gets from any NBA team.

[jnrjr79]

Just look at the list of 2017 UFA's and RFA's that are available....the cupboard is threadbare.

2017 UFA's who are likely to get Maxed out:
LeBron James --- 0%
Derrick Rose ---- 0%
Blake Griffin --- some possibility
Russell Westbrook --- close to 0%
Serge Ibaka ---- No chance Orlando lets him go. 0%
Stephen Curry --- Lol %

2017 RFA's who are likely to get maxed out:
Victor Oladipo --- some possibility
Nerlens Noel ---- Some possibility
Steven Adams --- No chance.
Giannis Antetokounmpo --- Some possibility
Dennis Schröder --- 0%. Atlanta just got rid of Teague.
Gorgui Dieng --- Some possibility.

So you have Dieng and Noel - both of whom are rendered unnecessary by Robin Lopez.
And then you have a FARCICAL chance of getting Westbrook or Oladipo if OKC decides to pay one and let the other go.

That leaves you with Giannis AND Blake Griffin. If that is the 2017 , 2 Max FA plan kill me now with a serving of Harrison Barnes. I'll take that all day, everyday. And twice on July 1st, 2016.

WTF? Greek Freak + Griffin is way, way better than signing Barnes this offseason.

Yes of course.

But what special ties other than money bind either of them to Chicago or this front office?

I can see Giannis wanting to move from a small market to a bigger market - but that doesnt hold true for Blake. And why would Milwaukee let Giannis go? He's not Un-Restricted. They'll just match whatever offer he gets from any NBA team.

That is the ultimate losers' mentality - that Chicago needs some sort of special connection in order to make a pitch to a free agent. I will pass on that thinking, thank you very much.

Sometimes taking the last girl at the bar home with you at the end of the night just because she'll come is not actually a good decision.

[babblin-on]

Just look at the list of 2017 UFA's and RFA's that are available....the cupboard is threadbare.

2017 UFA's who are likely to get Maxed out:
LeBron James --- 0%
Derrick Rose ---- 0%
Blake Griffin --- some possibility
Russell Westbrook --- close to 0%
Serge Ibaka ---- No chance Orlando lets him go. 0%
Stephen Curry --- Lol %

2017 RFA's who are likely to get maxed out:
Victor Oladipo --- some possibility
Nerlens Noel ---- Some possibility
Steven Adams --- No chance.
Giannis Antetokounmpo --- Some possibility
Dennis Schröder --- 0%. Atlanta just got rid of Teague.
Gorgui Dieng --- Some possibility.

So you have Dieng and Noel - both of whom are rendered unnecessary by Robin Lopez.
And then you have a FARCICAL chance of getting Westbrook or Oladipo if OKC decides to pay one and let the other go.

That leaves you with Giannis AND Blake Griffin. If that is the 2017 , 2 Max FA plan kill me now with a serving of Harrison Barnes. I'll take that all day, everyday. And twice on July 1st, 2016.

Makes no sense to state that there's 'no chance' a team lets a UFA(Ibaka) go. The team has no choice in it. Antetokounmpo, as a RFA and the Bucks' current cornerstone should be the 'no chance his team lets him go' guy.

[musiqsoulchild]

Just look at the list of 2017 UFA's and RFA's that are available....the cupboard is threadbare.

2017 UFA's who are likely to get Maxed out:
LeBron James --- 0%
Derrick Rose ---- 0%
Blake Griffin --- some possibility
Russell Westbrook --- close to 0%
Serge Ibaka ---- No chance Orlando lets him go. 0%
Stephen Curry --- Lol %

2017 RFA's who are likely to get maxed out:
Victor Oladipo --- some possibility
Nerlens Noel ---- Some possibility
Steven Adams --- No chance.
Giannis Antetokounmpo --- Some possibility
Dennis Schröder --- 0%. Atlanta just got rid of Teague.
Gorgui Dieng --- Some possibility.

So you have Dieng and Noel - both of whom are rendered unnecessary by Robin Lopez.
And then you have a FARCICAL chance of getting Westbrook or Oladipo if OKC decides to pay one and let the other go.

That leaves you with Giannis AND Blake Griffin. If that is the 2017 , 2 Max FA plan kill me now with a serving of Harrison Barnes. I'll take that all day, everyday. And twice on July 1st, 2016.

Makes no sense to state that there's 'no chance' a team lets a UFA(Ibaka) go. The team has no choice in it. Antetokounmpo, as a RFA and the Bucks' current cornerstone should be the 'no chance his team lets him go' guy.

Sure...lets up the odds of getting Ibaka to 1%.

That completely disregards fit - though I suppose we could need a PF if Niko is not good at all this season and is not re-signed.

[drbg43]

I have a feeling that this FO (Gar) has just made such a fool out of itself over the past couple of years that NO ONE wants any part of the organization. I hope I'm wrong.

[babblin-on]

Just look at the list of 2017 UFA's and RFA's that are available....the cupboard is threadbare.

2017 UFA's who are likely to get Maxed out:
LeBron James --- 0%
Derrick Rose ---- 0%
Blake Griffin --- some possibility
Russell Westbrook --- close to 0%
Serge Ibaka ---- No chance Orlando lets him go. 0%
Stephen Curry --- Lol %

2017 RFA's who are likely to get maxed out:
Victor Oladipo --- some possibility
Nerlens Noel ---- Some possibility
Steven Adams --- No chance.
Giannis Antetokounmpo --- Some possibility
Dennis Schröder --- 0%. Atlanta just got rid of Teague.
Gorgui Dieng --- Some possibility.

So you have Dieng and Noel - both of whom are rendered unnecessary by Robin Lopez.
And then you have a FARCICAL chance of getting Westbrook or Oladipo if OKC decides to pay one and let the other go.

That leaves you with Giannis AND Blake Griffin. If that is the 2017 , 2 Max FA plan kill me now with a serving of Harrison Barnes. I'll take that all day, everyday. And twice on July 1st, 2016.

Makes no sense to state that there's 'no chance' a team lets a UFA(Ibaka) go. The team has no choice in it. Antetokounmpo, as a RFA and the Bucks' current cornerstone should be the 'no chance his team lets him go' guy.

Sure...lets up the odds of getting Ibaka to 1%.

That completely disregards fit - though I suppose we could need a PF if Niko is not good at all this season and is not re-signed.

Not sure why 1%. Orlando can offer him the most money, that is probably the extent of their advantage, which OKC also had, but reports say he was looking to get out of there too. Bulls, if they match the optimistic expectations, should have a lot better team in place than Orlando. Ibaka is just the type of second tier FA that the Bulls have had relative success with. Regarding fit, I'd say he fits better than Niko if the Bulls still have McDermott and Valentine; you'd want to have a strong defender at the 4 moreso than another defense challenged guy like Niko. You put Ibaka and Lopez together and you have some pretty elite rim protection.

[d boy gentleman]

I'm not really feeling the 2017 MAX free agents plan at all. Sounds too much like the 2000, 2006, 2010 plan. With the owner and front office that this team has, unless we have a Portland like season(and I don't see any CJ McCollum's on this team)it's going to be difficult. Jimmy is going to have to recruit like hell and Hoiball has to work.

[musiqsoulchild]

Makes no sense to state that there's 'no chance' a team lets a UFA(Ibaka) go. The team has no choice in it. Antetokounmpo, as a RFA and the Bucks' current cornerstone should be the 'no chance his team lets him go' guy.

Sure...lets up the odds of getting Ibaka to 1%.

That completely disregards fit - though I suppose we could need a PF if Niko is not good at all this season and is not re-signed.

Not sure why 1%. Orlando can offer him the most money, that is probably the extent of their advantage, which OKC also had, but reports say he was looking to get out of there too. Bulls, if they match the optimistic expectations, should have a lot better team in place than Orlando. Ibaka is just the type of second tier FA that the Bulls have had relative success with. Regarding fit, I'd say he fits better than Niko if the Bulls still have McDermott and Valentine; you'd want to have a strong defender at the 4 moreso than another defense challenged guy like Niko. You put Ibaka and Lopez together and you have some pretty elite rim protection.

Agree to disagree.

My core premise is as follows " There is just not enough, realistically available Max level talent in 2017 to support the Bulls 2017 plan of getting 2 Max FA'S."

One? For sure. Two? Highly, highly unlikely. And bordering on stupid.

I think you fill one of those slots now - the lesser 22 Million max of Barnes who also fits a need in roster construction. And then focus on what your next need is and get another quality starter next offseason.

We cant ignore the fact that some of our own guys will need to be re-signed. Especially Niko who I think is going to command 20 Million next season.

[babblin-on]

Sure...lets up the odds of getting Ibaka to 1%.

That completely disregards fit - though I suppose we could need a PF if Niko is not good at all this season and is not re-signed.

Not sure why 1%. Orlando can offer him the most money, that is probably the extent of their advantage, which OKC also had, but reports say he was looking to get out of there too. Bulls, if they match the optimistic expectations, should have a lot better team in place than Orlando. Ibaka is just the type of second tier FA that the Bulls have had relative success with. Regarding fit, I'd say he fits better than Niko if the Bulls still have McDermott and Valentine; you'd want to have a strong defender at the 4 moreso than another defense challenged guy like Niko. You put Ibaka and Lopez together and you have some pretty elite rim protection.

Agree to disagree.

My core premise is as follows " There is just not enough, realistically available Max level talent in 2017 to support the Bulls 2017 plan of getting 2 Max FA'S."

One? For sure. Two? Highly, highly unlikely. And bordering on stupid.

I think you fill one of those slots now - the lesser 22 Million max of Barnes who also fits a need in roster construction. And then focus on what your next need is and get another quality starter next offseason.

We cant ignore the fact that some of our own guys will need to be re-signed. Especially Niko who I think is going to command 20 Million next season.

You disagree about what exactly from what I said?

I don't consider Barnes a max level talent. He's gonna be a bad contract any team he signs with other than a situation like Philly where they have enough guys on rookie scale deals that he doesn't hurt their flexibility. Our own guys who'll be FA are calderon(gone), Taj(gone), Dinwiddie(cheap or gone), Felicio(who knows), Niko(doesn't really fit a roster with multiple weak defenders on the wing).

[babblin-on]

Looking at the list of possible 2017 FA(http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12307054/nba-free-agents-2016-2017), the guy that seems most like a Bulls FA signing to me is Paul Millsap, good not great player, he's an undersized big, he'll be 32 next summer Unlike most guys we've gotten in FA though, he's a versatile 2-way player who'd fit into a shooting heavy motion offense. Not really athleticism reliant, maybe he could give you 2 good years at roughly the same level he's been at. He'd probably be right behind Ibaka for me.

Another somewhat realistic target I could see is Kyle Lowry.

Lowry/Grant/Moore?
Valentine/Butler/Moore?/Grant
Butler/McDermott/Zipser
(Ibaka or Millsap)/Portis
Lopez/Felicio

Certainly not a title favorite, but it's an interesting team that I could fool myself into thinking has a shot as a higher ceiling variation of the Hawks.

[bennjuiced34]

We turn the space for two max contracts into Kyle Lowry? Let's say Lowry/Gobert, which isn't a homerun. We're still better off than we'd be blowing it up, imo. That team makes noise.

So we become a slightly better version of Toronto? Did you see Lowry in the playoffs?

I know the Bulls would never do it, but I'd be down for a Wade-tank. Save Jimmy a year, get a high pick and rebuild that way.

Slightly better? I strongly disagree with that. I think Lowry/Butler/Gobert is a lot better than Lowry/Derozan/Val.

Playoffs are a small sample size; Lowry wasn't healthy; and the Raptors system was garbage in the playoffs. I'm not convinced that the guy is mentally weak or just sucks in the spring.

Don't get me wrong, we'd still be a part or two away, but I think that's a better route than blowing it all up. Also, I am not suggesting Lowry is my preference. I am using him as a worst case, under the assumption that we did strike out on the top two tiers of FA.

Lowry was poor in the playoffs the year before too. He's a bit of a mental midget.

You and I have already discussed this but Lowry is the most realistic option in 2017 IMO and that doesn't excite me at all.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

[BuLLs>LiFe]

I'm not really feeling the 2017 MAX free agents plan at all. Sounds too much like the 2000, 2006, 2010 plan. With the owner and front office that this team has, unless we have a Portland like season(and I don't see any CJ McCollum's on this team)it's going to be difficult. Jimmy is going to have to recruit like hell and Hoiball has to work.

I could potentially see Niko taking that "McCollum" role (or next step) this year. He finished the season a lot better and his shooting was lights out. Assuming we don't make any big splashes in other trades or FAs, I think he'll also be asked to do a lot of the scoring along with probably Doug just due to the lack of available options. If him and Doug suck though, yeah it's gonna be a pretty rough year.

[Concept Coop]

My core premise is as follows " There is just not enough, realistically available Max level talent in 2017 to support the Bulls 2017 plan of getting 2 Max FA'S."

One? For sure. Two? Highly, highly unlikely. And bordering on stupid.

I think you fill one of those slots now - the lesser 22 Million max of Barnes who also fits a need in roster construction. And then focus on what your next need is and get another quality starter next offseason.

We cant ignore the fact that some of our own guys will need to be re-signed. Especially Niko who I think is going to command 20 Million next season.

We need three guys clearly better than Barnes to win a championship, even in an odd season (04 Pistons). Giving 22 million to Barnes makes that all but impossible. I just don't see the point. It also locks you into a Jimmy/Barnes core long-term, or we lose value getting out of it. Even if you think landing 2x legit max guys is a longshot in 2017, surely we could land two guys of Barnes' caliber if we're willing to overpay to that degree (and we would be signing Barnes). Might as well give that 20M to Niko if it's all the same. At least he's shown there's another level of upside there.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Barnes defense vastly overrated? His #s are nothing special and he's not a great defensive rebounder, but I keep hearing about how he'd improve the defense. Niko has better numbers and is a much better defensive rebounder. Again, if Barnes is worth 22, I'd just as well give that money to Niko.