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Worst time to be a Bulls fan?

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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#141 » by DuckIII » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:22 pm

tong po wrote:
DuckIII wrote:I don't mind losing while developing young talent, as evidenced by my preference to rebuild. But I do mind losing with lazy, undisciplined losers playing for a dysfunctional organization. That was us not that long ago. It was just that we were bad. Its that we were bad and unlikeable. That's "the worst." Even though I strongly dislike what we are doing now, this is nothing like that.

I dunno, having the team run by the owner's totally unqualified son who happens to be best buds with the totally unqualified GM that's running it straight into irrelevancy isn't very likable either.

This is not the worst year to be a Bulls fan in recent memory, not even close. But I think '15-??? may end up being the worst stretch for a while. A downward spiral to start, and years of hopeless mediocrity after.


Definitely possible. I can't get too upset about the Gar stuff, because I just don't know enough about what goes on behind closed doors. Barring explicit stories coming out, I try to limit my analysis of management to plans and transactions.

And even using that approach, yeah, you might very well be right. And by that I mean you and I might both be right.
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#142 » by Fl_Flash » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:25 pm

DuckIII wrote:
coldfish wrote:IMO, the reason why that it might be the worst time is because you are completely right on the rebuild thing. Jimmy isn't getting any younger and the team doesn't have a lot of assets to improve itself. You are looking at a few years of mediocrity then followed by the tank that you accurately believe should happen now.


I agree with you that I'm probably right. :lol:

But RedBulls, Red, Rerisen (alliteration uninteded) and others I can't recall (Concept Coop?) make a rational and compelling case against that plan, in which the alternative plan results in a strong and entertaining team. Even a fringe title contending team.

I don't mind losing while developing young talent, as evidenced by my preference to rebuild. But I do mind losing with lazy, undisciplined bums playing for a dysfunctional organization. That was us not that long ago. It was not just that we were bad. Its that we were bad and unlikeable. That's "the worst." Even though I strongly dislike what we are doing now, this is nothing like that.


I look at this team as currently constructed - with the assumption that they resign Moore and do little else - and I see a #2 - #6 seed team. You look at the loss of Rose, Gasol and Noah; couple that with the addition of Grant, Lopez, Calderon and Valentine; throw in some marginal improvement from McDermott, Mirotic, Portis and Felicio and finally top it off with better chemistry\effort and I see a decent team. Lot of moving parts there. The key is the chemistry and effort. If it's there, this isn't a bad team.

I think the FO's plan is two fold. Weed out some of the problem players that weren't getting it done while garnering as many "team first" players as possible. The goal being to field the best possible team without spending a ton of money this summer. Ride it out and see what happens.

Based on the outcome for this upcoming season - if the team performs well try to get that difference maker FA by throwing whatever is necessary at him while retaining all the key pieces from the season. If the wheels on the bus truly are off, blow it up, move Butler for a high draft pick, we'll have a high draft pick and if we've sucked that badly it's all the more likely that we'll also get the Kings pick (finally).

To me that's a plan that makes sense. Find out what you have before you give up on it. I think it's entirely possible this team is pretty damned good next year. Is it going to win the title? Most likely not but if the plan is to lure a 2017 FA to this team it better be decent to even have a shot. If we suck I just don't see any difference-making FA coming here - even for Max dollars.

Blowing it up now is premature.
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#143 » by Benedict Miller » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:26 pm

It'll be hard to support this team any longer if this front office doesn't get Jimmy any kind of help, run him into the ground, and run the franchise to the ground in the next coming years.
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#144 » by musiqsoulchild » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:34 pm

Benedict Miller wrote:It'll be hard to support this team any longer if this front office doesn't get Jimmy any kind of help, run him into the ground, and run the franchise to the ground in the next coming years.


THAT would be the total wrong thing to do. And thats why I dont think they wait until 2017 for 2 Max FA's.

If they can snag Barnes, I think they will.
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#145 » by Axxo » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:36 pm

Benedict Miller wrote:It'll be hard to support this team any longer if this front office doesn't get Jimmy any kind of help, run him into the ground, and run the franchise to the ground in the next coming years.

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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#146 » by Shill » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:37 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:If they can snag Barnes, I think they will.



Give it up, musiq! Barnes will be someone else's chopped liver. :lol:
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#147 » by musiqsoulchild » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:43 pm

Shill wrote:
musiqsoulchild wrote:If they can snag Barnes, I think they will.



Give it up, musiq! Barnes will be someone else's chopped liver. :lol:


Shill for Barnes :D

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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#148 » by Mech Engineer » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:24 pm

Benedict Miller wrote:It'll be hard to support this team any longer if this front office doesn't get Jimmy any kind of help, run him into the ground, and run the franchise to the ground in the next coming years.


This is a real tough time for a Bulls fan. Worse can be relative. But, for me, it is pretty close to being the worst. In the early 2000s, call me naive....we were coming of a dynasty and had a guy who was the GM during the dynasty. You kind of trust him to redo something similar sooner than later before reality strikes you as a fan after a couple of years.

Now, we have more media/social media to figure out what is going on. They have had a tough time attracting free agents. It is one thing to fight/have issues with Vinny/Skiles but they fought with a well respected coach in the league(Thibs). And, the next coach didn't even maintain the status quo of wins/losses to get respect. It is as obvious as it gets that the perception of the Bulls went from not-so-bad/good to worse in the last year for a future free agent.

And, they plan to build again around free agency. It is like the Warriors deciding to build around Dwight Howard as the centerpiece by trading Steph Curry. It is that stupid to depend on 2 free agents to revitalize this organization.

The only hope I have is if they unexpectedly do well this year(like Portland last year) and then free agents not run away from them. Look at the Lakers....free agents are meeting other teams in their backyard and do not want to even hear about the Lakers.

The hope is far, far less compared to the early 2000s. That's why it is worse now. You have neither realistic hope like we had from 2010-15 nor blind hope we had in the early 2000s either.
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#149 » by coldfish » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:10 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:
Dont want to make this a Corporate Finance thread. Valuation (which is what you are citing) has precious little to do with revenue earned. It has MUCH more to do with Brand Value, Market Size, Media contracts and other macro variables.

Profit ,on the other hand, is a micro variable....but one that impacts choices.

Here's something for all of us to remember:
Cuban spent a lot of money and won a title. For one season. That is an example of on-court aspirations driving off-court spending. Flip that equation now....the next season after winning the ring, Cuban then had to break up his championship core and ever since then Dallas have been the Chicago of the West.

We do things in the correct order - we dont let on court aspirations dictate our budget. We let our budget build a team that drives financial results that allow further spending if said financial results are good. The difference between Cuban and Jerry is that - Cuban spent his own money (LT etc.) to build a better team and then immediately felt the pain of it. Ditto with Prokhorov.

Jerry spends BASKETBALL EARNED money on BASKETBALL things. Thats why he is profitable consistently. Kind of like WAITING for the paycheck to buy the flat screen instead of buying it on a credit card and then waiting for the paycheck.

Bulls were #7 (if I recollect correctly) in Gate Revenue last season at 72 Million dollars. 41 home games roughly get you 72 Million dollars in gate revenue. Thats about 2 Million per game. Add another 1.5 for all the money people spend when they are at the game.

So, the Bulls left behind (3.5 Million) * 5 = $18 Million last season by not making the playoffs.

They want that money back this season - I can almost guarantee it. The only way that they wouldn't want that is if Jerry is OK'ing not making the playoffs again in order to get a better on-court product in order to make more money with more guaranteed playoff outcomes in future years.

Each season the Bulls organization lives for those 8-10 additional home PLAYOFF games. Thats why they'll sign Barnes. Thats why they wont trade Jimmy.


1. You are incorrect on valuation. Revenue and revenue growth are some of the primary factors for how corporations are valued. While there isn't a direct correlation on the list I gave you for basketball teams, its pretty close. The top 3 teams in valuation are exactly the top 3 teams in revenue for a reason.

2. I completely agree with you that the Bulls are not going to tank because they want playoff revenue. I think that is what drives them more than anything. I know why they are doing what they are doing but that leads to two disagreements on my part:
- I am not an owner and do not benefit from Jerry's wealth. I want the team to maximize its number of contending seasons. As a fan, it is well within my right to complain when they do not do such.
- Even then, if you go with their plan, I really doubt it is going to work. If they give Barnes a huge contract, I don't think they make the playoffs. Particularly if they dump Taj to get it done.

Basically, I don't like the Bulls plan and I think they will fail at it anyways.
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#150 » by ADDinChicago » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:22 pm

To me, this has been the worst time to be a Bulls fan because there's no real plan. At least in the dark days after the dynasty, we knew they were trying to suck. Now it's this treadmill team of mediocrity where the FO bold face lies to the fanbase that they're contending, when they're not. They pass the buck on to coaches or certain players as to why they suck, when that's not the reason. John Paxson's dark cloud over the team grows every season with no signs of clearing. And the owner sits back and couldn't care less because his barn is packed.

In 2011 I was floored that they finally had seen to be caring and got lucky with a lottery ball and in 2012, unfortunately, one move changed it all when Derrick Rose went down. Pax assumed everything was going to be fine and did nothing to remedy it. It's his usual hubris that has pretty much permeated out of him since, if not before. And now, just how awful it's become in 5 years. And again, no signs of stopping. It's only going to get worse.
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#151 » by DuckIII » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:25 pm

ADDinChicago wrote:To me, this has been the worst time to be a Bulls fan because there's no real plan.


I disagree. There is a very clear plan. I just don't happen to think its a good one. But its right there for all to see.
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#152 » by ADDinChicago » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:26 pm

DuckIII wrote:
ADDinChicago wrote:To me, this has been the worst time to be a Bulls fan because there's no real plan.


I disagree. There is a very clear plan. I just don't happen to think its a good one. But its right there for all to see.


What has the actual plan been since 2012? There hasn't been one. It's always half-assed off a general idea, but never executed fully one way or the other. Unless the plan is "sell out the UC", there is no true "plan".
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#153 » by DuckIII » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:40 pm

ADDinChicago wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
ADDinChicago wrote:To me, this has been the worst time to be a Bulls fan because there's no real plan.


I disagree. There is a very clear plan. I just don't happen to think its a good one. But its right there for all to see.


What has the actual plan been since 2012? There hasn't been one.


That plan was clear as well. Stay afloat with a competitive team that Rose could take over the top when he returned healthy. But he never returned healthy or good, so it didn't work.

The Bulls' success during Rose's absence and upon his return as a crappy player, given the restraints forced upon them by his max contract, is actually pretty darn remarkable.
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#154 » by RedBulls23 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:46 pm

The FO plan is to get younger and go for 2 max FA next off-season.

We'll see if it works out. Maybe it will help this time that the best player is/will help with the recruiting process.
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#155 » by HearshotKDS » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:05 pm

I don't see how this is a worse time to be a Bulls fan than when Rose tore his ACL. Particularly now that we have the hindsight to understand the repercussions. Bulls were positioned to have a run as a top 4 team in the NBA for multiple years and it was snapped in an instant, like a ligament during a jump-cut. At least now the Bulls have ripped the band-aid off instead of waiting for years to see if the problem would fix itself.
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#156 » by Slip7 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:17 pm

I was a kid and went from watching every bulls game, every night and then seeing that line up we rolled out in 1999 again the Jazz made me want to puke. The rebuilding over the next couple years sucked but there was optimism there.

The D rose ACL tear was probably the worst though. I thought we were going to win the championship for sure. Rose was even better then he was the year before. Now knowing what we do we had youngest mvp ever to now career over with bulls. Ill say that was the worst.
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#157 » by ADDinChicago » Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:30 pm

DuckIII wrote:
ADDinChicago wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
I disagree. There is a very clear plan. I just don't happen to think its a good one. But its right there for all to see.


What has the actual plan been since 2012? There hasn't been one.


That plan was clear as well. Stay afloat with a competitive team that Rose could take over the top when he returned healthy. But he never returned healthy or good, so it didn't work.

The Bulls' success during Rose's absence and upon his return as a crappy player, given the restraints forced upon them by his max contract, is actually pretty darn remarkable.


"Competitive" for what? Like I said, no actual plan.

Just "uh, we like our team going forward" and then get slammed out of the playoffs because there was no actual plan to win or get better.
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Re: Worst time to be a Bulls fan? 

Post#158 » by nitetrain8603 » Fri Jul 1, 2016 3:04 am

DuckIII wrote:
coldfish wrote:IMO, the reason why that it might be the worst time is because you are completely right on the rebuild thing. Jimmy isn't getting any younger and the team doesn't have a lot of assets to improve itself. You are looking at a few years of mediocrity then followed by the tank that you accurately believe should happen now.


I agree with you that I'm probably right. :lol:

But RedBulls, Red, Rerisen (alliteration uninteded) and others I can't recall (Concept Coop?) make a rational and compelling case against that plan, in which the alternative plan results in a strong and entertaining team. Even a fringe title contending team.

I don't mind losing while developing young talent, as evidenced by my preference to rebuild. But I do mind losing with lazy, undisciplined bums playing for a dysfunctional organization. That was us not that long ago. It was not just that we were bad. Its that we were bad and unlikeable. That's "the worst." Even though I strongly dislike what we are doing now, this is nothing like that.


Thing is, this is a dysfunctional franchise with a dysfunctional front office. And the jobs are based off loyalty and not performance. Not weighed heavier towards loyalty, but literally, based on loyalty.

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