Michael Jordan: I Can No Longer Stay Silent

[Talclipse]

and to be very clear im not nor have i ever been cool with anyone getting murdered,cops or the general population..

but what we are seeing are symptoms of a huge problem that have been ignored for ages,people are sick of the bs and are starting to fight back.inseed of putting yalls heads in the dam sand and being completely ignorant to what is really happening out there,you need to step out of your comfort zone and see what a huge chunk of the population has to deal with everyday.

ill give you all an example of police bs.

about 30 years ago a childhood friend of mine in the projects was kidnapped and murdered at the age of 8 by a serial killer.

the police caught the/a serial killer in town but quickly turned him over to another state for extradition and never went any further for 30 years now.

insteed they turned on the murderd childs family and started arresting them one by one for drug dealing and trafficing.

think about this.the family calls the police for a missing child,the child is found dead but the police begin investigating the family for drugs and just kinda pushes the fact that a child was murdered off so they can get them some drug arrests and convictions..

Did the serial killer get off in the state he was extradicted to, or is he in prison?

If he's in prison I don't know what your complaint is. I personally believe drugs should be legal but you can't expect law enforcement officers to ignore drug trafficking just because the traffickers had a family tragedy.

he was convinced in the state he was extradicted to for a little girls murder.but there is atleast two other states with pending charges and about 200 other deaths around the country they think he may have been the perpetrator.

as for my friend,he is nothing more then a open case file..everyone may accept the unofficial story of events.but why didn't these sobs bring him back and try him here.who knows maybe it wasn't him.they didn't even try it seems.my friend has never had justice served on his behalf.

i feel now after getting as much of the info as i could that these dirty cops used the opportunity of my friends death to gain access to the family to gather evidence to convict them on the drug charges,instead of putting in work to convict the killer of their child.it was a huge conflict of interest imo.

honestly think about it,this family called looking for help and the cops came to help alright by throwing them all in jail.they weren't bad people,just like everyone else trying to make some money and a better life for them selfs.it was back in the 80s and they helped push Coke into our town.i guess they were getting it from Florida and was pushing it pretty far north.

i get it not cool,but dang how can you flip that boys murder into a drug charge on the victims is completely screwed up in my book.

[League Circles]

ooo now lets jump from cops killing citizens to grammar checking..****.....

I didn't mention anything about grammar. If you insist, as you did, that cops are ALWAYS a problem, you have little chance of improving the system through dialogue.

bail does nothing but feed the pig.its a money making racket that you obviously know nothing about.

I worked for a criminal defense attorney for a few years. He also did 5 years in federal prison. I also have other friends who have done real time in state and federal prison and I've studied criminal justice academically. I may know a lot more than you do about it.

How is bail a money making racket? If an accused person follows procedure, they get their bail back. If they jump bail or have to use a bail bondsmen for their services, then of course they lose money.

Bail also, you know, provides an incentive for people to show up to trial, and, when particularly high, keeps defendants in jail to protect the public. And yes, of course, unfortunately, sometimes a person is wrongly arrested and charged and sits in jail unnecessarily. Do you advocate letting all arrested people free until trial?

[League Circles]

he was convinced in the state he was extradicted to.as for my friend,he is nothing more then a open case file..

my complaint is two fold.my friend has never had justice served on his behalf,when it seemed obvious what had happened...

The killer can't be in prison in two different states at the same time. So, it seems like your friend did have justice served on his behalf. I'm not sure if it's legal or practical to also try and convict him in illinois court as a formality, but even if it is, how much time and money should this state spend on that formality when justice is served?

two i feel now after getting as much of the info as i could that these dirty cops used the opportunity of my friends death to gain access to the family to gather evidence to convict them on the drug charges,instead of putting in work to convict the killer of their child.it was a huge conflict of interest imo.

How did they "gain access" to "gather evidence"? Seems like you're just upset that the family got pinched. Which is understandable. I think drugs should be legal and I wish my friends who had been pinched weren't, but the fact that they were doesn't say anything in particular about the cops being dirty or not. There is no conflict of interest in pursuing the killer of a child (which they did, successfully, according to you), and arresting the family of that child for legitimate crimes against society.

honestly think about it,this family called looking for help and the cops came to help alright by throwing them all in jail.they weren't bad people,just like everyone else trying to make some money and a better life for them selfs.it was back in the 80s and they helped push Coke into our town.i guess they were gettingnit from Florida and was pushing it prety far north.

i get it not cool,but dang how can you flip that boys murder into a drug charge on the victims is completely screwed up in my book.

Because drug trafficking, right or wrong, is a serious crime and law enforcement officers' job is to enforce laws against it. Again, I think drugs, including coke, should be legal, but cocaine definitely helps destroy society, and so no, they weren't just like everyone else. Most people don't elect to do illegal, destructive things for money.

[League Circles]

as for my friend,he is nothing more then a open case file..everyone may accept the unofficial story of events.but why didn't these sobs bring him back and try him here.who knows maybe it wasn't him.they didn't even try it seems.my friend has never had justice served on his behalf.

Well you said it was him. You either know that or you don't. If it was him, justice has been served IMO. If it wasn't, surely you may have a great point about them not trying. Or you may be very wrong and maybe they tried hard and might still be trying. Do you have any evidence about what their investigation consists/consisted of?

[Talclipse]

ooo now lets jump from cops killing citizens to grammar checking..****.....

I didn't mention anything about grammar. If you insist, as you did, that cops are ALWAYS a problem, you have little chance of improving the system through dialogue.

bail does nothing but feed the pig.its a money making racket that you obviously know nothing about.

I worked for a criminal defense attorney for a few years. He also did 5 years in federal prison. I also have other friends who have done real time in state and federal prison and I've studied criminal justice academically. I may know a lot more than you do about it.

How is bail a money making racket? If an accused person follows procedure, they get their bail back. If they jump bail or have to use a bail bondsmen for their services, then of course they lose money.

Bail also, you know, provides an incentive for people to show up to trial, and, when particularly high, keeps defendants in jail to protect the public. And yes, of course, unfortunately, sometimes a person is wrongly arrested and charged and sits in jail unnecessarily. Do you advocate letting all arrested people free until trial?

I Can not see how we as a people can say innocent until proven guilty,yet throw a person in jail and request moneys in order to be released from that jail only because of an accusation..

people still run from the law now with a bond system,so i dont see how it would be any different without one.

i don't know how things are your way,but in VA the bondsman keeps the moneys,you dont get it back.

in Tenn i once had a personal Cash bond that i had to front and couldn't use a bondsman for.even the cops said they hadn't seen once like it before.i got that back after showing up,but i was shocked as that was the first bond i ever got back.

[mj234eva]

Black Lives Matter is a movement founded on irrationality, perpetuated by stupidity and selfishness, and which inspires hate. And perhaps most importantly (and unsurprisingly), it has led to the deaths of more cops and more black people -- both at the hands of black people who believe in this movement.

It's hard to fathom a dumber movement than this one.

I've heard this before!

We clergymen are among those who, in January, issued “an Appeal for Law and Order and Common Sense,” in dealing with racial problems in Alabama. We expressed understanding that honest convictions in racial matters could properly be pursued in the courts, but urged that decisions of those courts should in the meantime be peacefully obeyed.

Since that time there has been some evidence of increased forbearance and a willingness to face facts. Responsible citizens have undertaken to work on various problems which cause racial friction and unrest. In Birmingham, recent public events have given indication that we all have opportunity for a new constructive and realistic approach to racial problems.

However, we are now confronted by a series of demonstrations by some of our Negro citizens, directed and led in part by outsiders. We recognize the natural impatience of people who feel that their hopes are slow in being realized. But we are convinced that these demonstrations are unwise and untimely.

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/letter-to-martin-luther-king/

Black Lives Matter doesn’t fare much better: In a September PBS-Marist poll, 59 percent of white Americans said BLM is a distraction and, in response to a separate question, 41 percent said it advocates violence (16 percent said they were unsure whether it does).

King, likewise, faced editorials admonishing him for provoking riots and isolating those sympathetic to his cause with his “excessive” demonstrations. Progressive white Americans, who distinguished themselves from the “bigots and hatemongers” in the South, turned against King when he came into their de facto segregated neighborhoods to protest racist housing practices — in much the same way Bernie Sanders supporters slammed the “extreme” tactics of activists who took the presidential candidate’s stage in August to demand that he address systemic racism.

Even black Americans criticized King’s strategy. In response to a demonstration that turned violent in Memphis in 1968, a black man penned a derisive letter to King, blaming him for the death of a 16-year-old boy who was shot by a police officer in the chaos that followed the protest. “I know that you think that you are helping all of us Negroes,” the man wrote, adding: “After knowing the honest truth about this and many other deaths caused by your calm riots, we as a body had rather not have any thing else to do with you or your so called righteous riots or better, righteous murders.”

Similarly, many have held today’s movement responsible for the burned buildings, broken windows and police and civilian deaths that followed protests during the past year. Yet history shows that this violence is the inevitable consequence of challenging the racial status quo

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/10/01/dont-criticize-black-lives-matter-for-provoking-violence-the-civil-rights-movement-did-too/

[League Circles]

I Can not see how we as a people can say innocent until proven guilty,yet throw a person in jail and request moneys in order to be released from that jail only because of an accusation..

people still run from the law now with a bond system,so i dont see how it would be any different without one.

i don't know how things are your way,but in VA the bondsman keeps the moneys,you dont get it back.

Bail bondsmen don't work for the government. If someone chooses to pay them for their services, that's their problem. A quick google search seems to indicate that bail and bond are handled in virginia similarly to how they are handled in all other states:

http://www.livesaymyers.com/basics-bond-virginia/

in Tenn i once had a personal Cash bond that i had to front and couldn't use a bondsman for.even the cops said they hadn't seen once like it before.i got that back after showing up,but i was shocked as that was the first bond i ever got back.

If you were owed bond back, and it wasn't returned, you should sue your lawyer. If you weren't owed it, that means you violated the terms of your bond, in which case it's your fault.

It's worth noting that what you're advocating is that the cops arrest that guy that allegedly killed your friend, and then let him chill at home until his trial. Do you think that would be effective? Should we just go on the honor system?

It's very unfortunate that sometimes innocent people are held in jail who cannot pay their bond. Most of the time, people are in jail because they are guilty of the crime they are accused of. We have a constitutional amendment (or maybe in the bill of rights I can't recall) that guarantees the right to a speedy trial. So you can always demand that right be exercised and get a trial very quickly. The reason this rarely ever happens is because defendants and their attorneys usually know that they are guilty and are trying to take as much time as possible to construe reasonable doubt. For people who are demonstrably innocent, it is usually not that difficult to prove promptly via eye witness or other alibi confirmation. The constitutional right to speedy trial is specifically intended to prevent innocent people from rotting in jail just because they may not have money for bond.

[GetBuLLish]

Black Lives Matter is a movement founded on irrationality, perpetuated by stupidity and selfishness, and which inspires hate. And perhaps most importantly (and unsurprisingly), it has led to the deaths of more cops and more black people -- both at the hands of black people who believe in this movement.

It's hard to fathom a dumber movement than this one.

It's irrational, stupid and selfish to not want to be racially profiled, plus disproportionately face excessive force(including actions that lead to death). To, basically, be treated equally. Gotcha

Blacks are not disproportionately killed by cops. That's a misrepresentation, at best.

In 2015, twice as many whites were killed by blacks (fun question: can anyone here name a single white person killed by a cop in the last 3 years? Why not?). This is despite the fact that blacks commit more than half of violent crimes in the country. And the fact that blacks commit more than half of violent crimes is incredible when you realize that blacks make up only 13% of the population and therefore commit an incredibly disproportionate amount of the country's violent crimes.

Or you can look at it this way: of all white homicide deaths, about 12% were killed by cops. The number for black homicide deaths? 4%. In other words, if you're white and you're killed, it is significantly more likely that you were killed by a cop than if you're black and you're killed.

In addition, about 40% of cop killers are black. Again, that's despite the fact that blacks make up only 13% of the population.

And to put police shootings of blacks into even more perspective: a police officer is more than 18x more likely to be killed by a black person than an unarmed black person is to be killed by a cop.

So without even getting into some of the individual cop shootings, such as the Michael Brown shooting which triggered BLM and was a completely justified homicide, the statistics show that this whole movement is phony.

----

If someone truly cares about black lives and black killings, then the vast majority of his energy and attention should be devoted to stopping black-on-black crime, which compromises over 80% of black homicide deaths. But that wouldn't advance a certain agenda, so it gets minimal attention and energy compared to BLM.

And before someone responds to me about white-on-white crime compromising the majority of white homicide deaths, let me point out two flagrantly obvious points that show why such a (common) retort is utterly useless. First and foremost, that retort would only be relevant if there was a "White Lives Matters" movement fixated on black people killing white people. If that were the case, then I (and any rationally thinking person) would reflexively point out that most white homicide deaths are at the hands of white people, so focusing on the small percentage of black murders is illogical. But, alas, there is no "White Lives Matters" movement, so bringing up the white-on-white crime ratio is a foolish argument meant only to deceive.

Second, bringing up the white-on-white crime ratio completely ignores the massive difference in rates at which blacks kill blacks versus whites killing whites. The difference is astronomical. Again, a fact completely ignored by people who use this retort.

---

Finally, as I said in my initial post, the worst aspect of BLM is its disastrous results. The hateful, baseless rhetoric has directly resulted in the cold-blooded murders of numerous police officers. That much is clear.

But what is overlooked is that BLM has resulted in more deaths of black people at the hands of other black people due to the "Ferguson Effect." In cities like Baltimore and Chicago, in response to the anti-police hysteria, the cops have intentionally decided to less actively police the high-crime neighborhoods. The obvious result of this is a significant spike in crime in those areas, including murders, mostly of black people by other black people.

So the utopia imagined by so many people of a world where cops just back off and keep to themselves has failed to materialize. Rather, the obvious effect has been more crime and more death. The irony of this is to illustrate that it's cops--the ones who are being demonized as black killing madmen--are the ones who risk their lives to protect those very black people. This whole "movement" wasn't necessary to prove that, but it has perfectly crystallized that fact.

[Dominator83]

Just about everyone of note acknowledges the cop killings were awful. I mean really - we're talking everyone. And everyone acknowledges cop assassins should be buried under the prison ( if they manage to leave the scene alive, that is - the Dallas killer was blown up with a bomb robot). But 'society' gives you verrrrry mixed takes on whether black people deserve to be killed by police, even in cases where police were clearly in the wrong. That's why it's disingenuous to square those two issues against one another. Cop killers are taken out on sight. Cops who kill black people don't see trial. See the difference?

Cops who kill anyone don't see trial.....usually.

They don't. And that's a problem. But the # of unarmed shooting deaths by police skews heavily toward black people, according to most studies. And then, anecdotally, you see how the cases that've caught on video have been handled, and the endless rationalization of cops' actions, much of which is tinged with race, that follows.

Let me ask you something: do you not believe black people have been targeted by police in this country? Not asking you to estimate the scale of the problem -- only whether you acknowlege it exists on a core level.

Yes but that's because it's the blacks that cause the vast majority of the crimes (atleast the violent ones). I'm more than sure that most cops would much rather just have them all be law abiding citizens therefore not having these confrontations in the first place.

[realEAST]

Black Lives Matter is a movement founded on irrationality, perpetuated by stupidity and selfishness, and which inspires hate. And perhaps most importantly (and unsurprisingly), it has led to the deaths of more cops and more black people -- both at the hands of black people who believe in this movement.

It's hard to fathom a dumber movement than this one.

It's irrational, stupid and selfish to not want to be racially profiled, plus disproportionately face excessive force(including actions that lead to death). To, basically, be treated equally. Gotcha

Blacks are not disproportionately killed by cops. That's a misrepresentation, at best.

In 2015, twice as many whites were killed by blacks (fun question: can anyone here name a single white person killed by a cop in the last 3 years? Why not?). This is despite the fact that blacks commit more than half of violent crimes in the country. And the fact that blacks commit more than half of violent crimes is incredible when you realize that blacks make up only 13% of the population and therefore commit an incredibly disproportionate amount of the country's violent crimes.

Or you can look at it this way: of all white homicide deaths, about 12% were killed by cops. The number for black homicide deaths? 4%. In other words, if you're white and you're killed, it is significantly more likely that you were killed by a cop than if you're black and you're killed.

In addition, about 40% of cop killers are black. Again, that's despite the fact that blacks make up only 13% of the population.

And to put police shootings of blacks into even more perspective: a police officer is more than 18x more likely to be killed by a black person than an unarmed black person is to be killed by a cop.

So without even getting into some of the individual cop shootings, such as the Michael Brown shooting which triggered BLM and was a completely justified homicide, the statistics show that this whole movement is phony.

----

If someone truly cares about black lives and black killings, then the vast majority of his energy and attention should be devoted to stopping black-on-black crime, which compromises over 80% of black homicide deaths. But that wouldn't advance a certain agenda, so it gets minimal attention and energy compared to BLM.

And before someone responds to me about white-on-white crime compromising the majority of white homicide deaths, let me point out two flagrantly obvious points that show why such a (common) retort is utterly useless. First and foremost, that retort would only be relevant if there was a "White Lives Matters" movement fixated on black people killing white people. If that were the case, then I (and any rationally thinking person) would reflexively point out that most white homicide deaths are at the hands of white people, so focusing on the small percentage of black murders is illogical. But, alas, there is no "White Lives Matters" movement, so bringing up the white-on-white crime ratio is a foolish argument meant only to deceive.

Second, bringing up the white-on-white crime ratio completely ignores the massive difference in rates at which blacks kill blacks versus whites killing whites. The difference is astronomical. Again, a fact completely ignored by people who use this retort.

---

Finally, as I said in my initial post, the worst aspect of BLM is its disastrous results. The hateful, baseless rhetoric has directly resulted in the cold-blooded murders of numerous police officers. That much is clear.

But what is overlooked is that BLM has resulted in more deaths of black people at the hands of other black people due to the "Ferguson Effect." In cities like Baltimore and Chicago, in response to the anti-police hysteria, the cops have intentionally decided to less actively police the high-crime neighborhoods. The obvious result of this is a significant spike in crime in those areas, including murders, mostly of black people by other black people.

So the utopia imagined by so many people of a world where cops just back off and keep to themselves has failed to materialize. Rather, the obvious effect has been more crime and more death. The irony of this is to illustrate that it's cops--the ones who are being demonized as black killing madmen--are the ones who risk their lives to protect those very black people. This whole "movement" wasn't necessary to prove that, but it has perfectly crystallized that fact.

Man, I really have no intention into entering discussion with you, especially since your stance is obviously made up and you are sticking to it no matter what; besides it would take a lot of time and effort, and thorough factography to logically disprove you and all your claims and I dont have time nor will to do it here, even less for you.

Meanwhile you are clearly far away from understanding the way things are set up and work in USA and in the world, or, which I believe is true, it is your concieus choice to mask your pathological ideology with cheap demagogy.

So, just for the record (and sorry mods) {snip}.

Edited for unacceptable content.
--Ben

[SHO'NUFF]

It's irrational, stupid and selfish to not want to be racially profiled, plus disproportionately face excessive force(including actions that lead to death). To, basically, be treated equally. Gotcha

Blacks are not disproportionately killed by cops. That's a misrepresentation, at best.

In 2015, twice as many whites were killed by blacks (fun question: can anyone here name a single white person killed by a cop in the last 3 years? Why not?). This is despite the fact that blacks commit more than half of violent crimes in the country. And the fact that blacks commit more than half of violent crimes is incredible when you realize that blacks make up only 13% of the population and therefore commit an incredibly disproportionate amount of the country's violent crimes.

Or you can look at it this way: of all white homicide deaths, about 12% were killed by cops. The number for black homicide deaths? 4%. In other words, if you're white and you're killed, it is significantly more likely that you were killed by a cop than if you're black and you're killed.

In addition, about 40% of cop killers are black. Again, that's despite the fact that blacks make up only 13% of the population.

And to put police shootings of blacks into even more perspective: a police officer is more than 18x more likely to be killed by a black person than an unarmed black person is to be killed by a cop.

So without even getting into some of the individual cop shootings, such as the Michael Brown shooting which triggered BLM and was a completely justified homicide, the statistics show that this whole movement is phony.

----

If someone truly cares about black lives and black killings, then the vast majority of his energy and attention should be devoted to stopping black-on-black crime, which compromises over 80% of black homicide deaths. But that wouldn't advance a certain agenda, so it gets minimal attention and energy compared to BLM.

And before someone responds to me about white-on-white crime compromising the majority of white homicide deaths, let me point out two flagrantly obvious points that show why such a (common) retort is utterly useless. First and foremost, that retort would only be relevant if there was a "White Lives Matters" movement fixated on black people killing white people. If that were the case, then I (and any rationally thinking person) would reflexively point out that most white homicide deaths are at the hands of white people, so focusing on the small percentage of black murders is illogical. But, alas, there is no "White Lives Matters" movement, so bringing up the white-on-white crime ratio is a foolish argument meant only to deceive.

Second, bringing up the white-on-white crime ratio completely ignores the massive difference in rates at which blacks kill blacks versus whites killing whites. The difference is astronomical. Again, a fact completely ignored by people who use this retort.

---

Finally, as I said in my initial post, the worst aspect of BLM is its disastrous results. The hateful, baseless rhetoric has directly resulted in the cold-blooded murders of numerous police officers. That much is clear.

But what is overlooked is that BLM has resulted in more deaths of black people at the hands of other black people due to the "Ferguson Effect." In cities like Baltimore and Chicago, in response to the anti-police hysteria, the cops have intentionally decided to less actively police the high-crime neighborhoods. The obvious result of this is a significant spike in crime in those areas, including murders, mostly of black people by other black people.

So the utopia imagined by so many people of a world where cops just back off and keep to themselves has failed to materialize. Rather, the obvious effect has been more crime and more death. The irony of this is to illustrate that it's cops--the ones who are being demonized as black killing madmen--are the ones who risk their lives to protect those very black people. This whole "movement" wasn't necessary to prove that, but it has perfectly crystallized that fact.

Man, I really have no intention into entering discussion with you, especially since your stance is obviously made up and you are sticking to it no matter what; besides it would take a lot of time and effort, and thorough factography to logically disprove you and all your claims and I dont have time nor will to do it here, even less for you.

Meanwhile you are clearly far away from understanding the way things are set up and work in USA and in the world, or, which I believe is true, it is your concieus choice to mask your pathological ideology with cheap demagogy.

So, just for the record (and sorry mods) you are {snip}

I guess that would also make me a **** moron and petty human being....also Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke who happens to be black...

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/07/18/don-lemon-sheriff-david-clarke-police-shootings-full-intv-ctn.cnn (Vid)

Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth. I completely understand and won't take offense to what you or anyone have to say. All is good. At the end of the day....we're all Bulls fans.

[GetBuLLish]

Man, I really have no intention into entering discussion with you, especially since your stance is obviously made up and you are sticking to it no matter what; besides it would take a lot of time and effort, and thorough factography to logically disprove you and all your claims and I dont have time nor will to do it here, even less for you.

Meanwhile you are clearly far away from understanding the way things are set up and work in USA and in the world, or, which I believe is true, it is your concieus choice to mask your pathological ideology with cheap demagogy.

So, just for the record (and sorry mods) you are {snip}

I honestly appreciate your post. Seriously, I do. Because it perfectly exemplifies the attitude and logic of BLM: we don't want debate and we don't want facts. We just want to scream and shout, and if you disagree with us, f**k you.

Like I said, it's hard to fathom a more idiotic movement.

[Ben]

Man, I really have no intention into entering discussion with you, especially since your stance is obviously made up and you are sticking to it no matter what; besides it would take a lot of time and effort, and thorough factography to logically disprove you and all your claims and I dont have time nor will to do it here, even less for you.

Meanwhile you are clearly far away from understanding the way things are set up and work in USA and in the world, or, which I believe is true, it is your concieus choice to mask your pathological ideology with cheap demagogy.

So, just for the record (and sorry mods) {snip}.

Edited for unacceptable content.
--Ben

You have to know that your response isn't OK. You clearly do know it, because you write "sorry mods" before your blistering, ad hominem attack-- but that doesn't make it any less of an ad hominem attack or any less a violation of the site's Terms of Service. You are always welcome to debate the facts, but if you don't have the time or inclination for that, insults aren't the way to go.

Let me just add that I'm a BLM supporter; I have many friends and associates of color who've been harmed-- directly or indirectly-- by forces in our country that are not similarly arrayed against people who look like me. I understand the anger, and I have some share in it. But we're still not gonna have this site substituting insults & cursing for reasoned argument, although reasoned argument can certainly be entitled to vent anger along with reason.

Peace.