Wiretap: Tom Thibodeau proves insane as GM

[Red Larrivee]

Yikes, Twolves are 5-14 and in the 14th seed.


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Who Will Win More Games?

Timberwolves: 82%
Bulls: 18%

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1438019&start=140&hilit=Minnesota+Thibodeau

In fairness to that thread, it was before we acquired Lopez, Rondo, MCW and Wade, and were able to rid ourselves of Rose.

Granted, the results are due to Hoiberg hate and Thibs love more than anything else. But I think if that question is asked in September the poll would look much different.

You're right. It's just unbearable when this board goes overboard with spite. A good amount of people were talking about the T'Wolves winning 50 games.

[Leslie Forman]

I still think the T'Wolves will be good at some point. Though I agree, it's fair to wonder whether Andrew Wiggins really will become a superstar. He's still only 21 years old, but he looks closer to Demar DeRozan than the HOF comparisons we gave him.

This was already clear three years ago. Wiggins is absolutely not a superstar talent. His IQ and playmaking ability is complete trash. Much of the overrating of the Wolves talent is based on him.

That said, I was guilty of overrating the gains I thought Towns and Lavine would make this year. They've improved but clearly they still need time.

People including myself need to remember - Jimmy Butler at their ages wasn't even in the NBA.

[sco]

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/jackson-was-right-to-ignore-thibodeau/210171184

[DuckIII]

The way Thibs is, he is a veteran team kind of guy. Not that he can't coach young players, because he has done it. But Thibs has an advanced agenda of professionalism, responsibility and tough love that some really young teams may not be yet capable of embracing or understanding effectively. They probably have some bad habits that need to be broken before they can move forward. And quite frankly, the talent on that team, possibly overrated.

I still think the T'Wolves will be good at some point. Though I agree, it's fair to wonder whether Andrew Wiggins really will become a superstar. He's still only 21 years old, but he looks closer to Demar DeRozan than the HOF comparisons we gave him.

I haven't ever come to the conclusion that Wiggins will be a superstar. The franchise player there is Towns.

But Wiggins still going to be a damn fine player. There is still way too much talent there to be 5-14.

[Red Larrivee]

I still think the T'Wolves will be good at some point. Though I agree, it's fair to wonder whether Andrew Wiggins really will become a superstar. He's still only 21 years old, but he looks closer to Demar DeRozan than the HOF comparisons we gave him.

This was already clear three years ago. Wiggins is absolutely not a superstar talent. His IQ and playmaking ability is complete trash. Much of the overrating of the Wolves talent is based on him.

That said, I was guilty of overrating the gains I thought Towns and Lavine would make this year. They've improved but clearly they still need time.

People including myself need to remember - Jimmy Butler at their ages wasn't even in the NBA.

I agree. Wiggins has improved his perimeter shooting and he does show flashes of being a terrific scorer, but if he's only Demar DeRozan, then how good is Minnesota long-term? Towns is clearly a beast, but Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins are both really good, and stuck on teams that suck.

I like LaVine, but I feel he gets overrated a little too because of his athleticism. Like Wiggins, still only 21, but still fair to wonder if these players will ever come close to grazing their supreme hype. Not to mention, they're both coming up for contract extensions. Wiggins is going to get the max. Someone might overpay LaVine too.

[DuckIII]

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/jackson-was-right-to-ignore-thibodeau/210171184

Thibs was a bad fit for that group anyway. Thibs took the right job. He just isn't off to a good start either as coach or GM.

Earlier this year I commended Thibs for not panicking and giving up his youth for veterans. But with each passing game, it's pretty obvious he and Ainge both blew the Butler situation (Ainge blew it much worse though).

[fleet]

https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/jackson-was-right-to-ignore-thibodeau/210171184

Thibs was a bad fit for that group anyway. Thibs took the right job. He just isn't off to a good start either as coach or GM.

Earlier this year I commended Thibs for not panicking and giving up his youth for veterans. But with each passing game, it's pretty obvious he and Ainge both blew the Butler situation (Ainge blew it much worse though).

Reportedly, Thibs recognizes that you have to goose a young team by mixing in capable vets. Hence, the trade rumors. In this case, he may have had better leverage to trade some of these people in the offseason than he does now. I think he tried before the season, but he drove way too hard a bargain in the moment.

[TheStig]

I'm not sure why everyone is so down on the Wolves, they're a very young team with mismatching pieces and no expirence ever winning. They will make a move to get a vet before the deadline and I wouldn't be surprised if they made a run.

Their point differential is very good. Better than some of the teams with winning records. I think it will even out.

The reason is simple: They have waaaay too much talent to have the third worst record in the NBA.

If we had that roster and Hoiberg had them at 4-15 this board would be going berserk.

The only thing that helps explain what otherwise appears to be confusing is, as you said, the point differential isn't bad at all. You have to assume an upward trend in wins soon.

I'm not sure what the Hoiberg/Bulls comparison has to do with Minny?

Sure they have talent but guys like Dunn and Lavine are extremely raw. Wiggins, Towns and Dieng are good but the rest of that roster is a crap shoot.

[DuckIII]

May have had better leverage? Butler is without question completely off the table now. So, yeah, Thibs leverage has gone way down on that one.

And the 5-14 record isn't helping trade value either.

[Leslie Forman]

I like LaVine, but I feel he gets overrated a little too because of his athleticism. Like Wiggins, still only 21, but still fair to wonder if these players will ever come close to grazing their supreme hype. Not to mention, they're both coming up for contract extensions. Wiggins is going to get the max. Someone might overpay LaVine too.

Lavine is a great pure shooter and can actually handle the ball. He has steadily improved throughout his time in the league. He's somehow been underrated as a prospect this whole time even though he's even more athletic than Wiggins.

Other than the little unsustainable hot streak he had, Wiggins looks like the same damn player. I've thought Lavine actually had a higher ceiling than Wiggins for a while now and I think people are finally gonna catch on this year.

Really I think they should trade Wiggins while his value is still sky high. Let Lavine and Towns take on more of a scoring load. Mediocre efficiency volume scoring isn't what they need.

[DuckIII]

I like LaVine, but I feel he gets overrated a little too because of his athleticism. Like Wiggins, still only 21, but still fair to wonder if these players will ever come close to grazing their supreme hype. Not to mention, they're both coming up for contract extensions. Wiggins is going to get the max. Someone might overpay LaVine too.

Lavine is a great pure shooter and can actually handle the ball. He has steadily improved throughout his time in the league. He's somehow been underrated as a prospect this whole time even though he's even more athletic than Wiggins.

Other than the little unsustainable hot streak he had, Wiggins looks like the same damn player. I've thought Lavine actually had a higher ceiling than Wiggins for a while now and I think people are finally gonna catch on this year.

Really I think they should trade Wiggins while his value is still sky high. Let Lavine and Towns take on more of a scoring load. Mediocre efficiency volume scoring isn't what they need.

Wiggins has the tools to be a special perimeter defender though. I'd keep all three for now, hope Dunn develops, and then figure out your core.

It's a great problem to have.

[Leslie Forman]

Wiggins has the tools to be a special perimeter defender though.

No, he really doesn't. Terrible IQ and instincts. No toughness. Just seems "slow" when on that end.

He's basically putting up Snell-like rebounds/assists/steals/blocks. It's been three seasons and a year in college now. I'm sure his scoring may improve but I think it's clear now that there's just something between the ears lacking.

[Jcool0]

I wouldnt doubt Wiggins

Watch on YouTube

[Zeitgeister]

I like LaVine, but I feel he gets overrated a little too because of his athleticism. Like Wiggins, still only 21, but still fair to wonder if these players will ever come close to grazing their supreme hype. Not to mention, they're both coming up for contract extensions. Wiggins is going to get the max. Someone might overpay LaVine too.

Lavine is a great pure shooter and can actually handle the ball. He has steadily improved throughout his time in the league. He's somehow been underrated as a prospect this whole time even though he's even more athletic than Wiggins.

Other than the little unsustainable hot streak he had, Wiggins looks like the same damn player. I've thought Lavine actually had a higher ceiling than Wiggins for a while now and I think people are finally gonna catch on this year.

Really I think they should trade Wiggins while his value is still sky high. Let Lavine and Towns take on more of a scoring load. Mediocre efficiency volume scoring isn't what they need.

Spot on. Timberwolves fan here and I'm definitely in the minority among the Wolves fanbase that thinks LaVine is a better player than Wiggins and has higher upside for all the reasons you mentioned. I honestly don't know what a lot of these Wolves fans are seeing who constantly rag on LaVine and are demanding that he come off the bench so that Wiggins can play the 2. LaVine gets ragged on for his defense far more than Wiggins does, people say that he's got a low basketball IQ and makes stupid mistakes. I won't argue with the fact that his defense is pretty poor and he makes dumb mistakes sometimes, but the strange thing about it is that Wiggins is just as guilty of that and people seem to brush it off far more easily.

I think a lot of Wolves fans are still holding out hope that Wiggins is a star or a superstar talent but I just don't see it. The athleticism is a bit of a mirage because he's not willing to use it fully and when you combine that with a guy that does not have a very refined skillset, there's not much upside there. If you look at Wiggins numbers from the last 57 games of his rookie year through the first 20 games of this season, they are nearly identical.

19.2 PPG(.538 TS%) 4.8 RPG 2.4 APG - last 57 games of rookie season
20.7 PPG(.543 TS%) 3.6 RPG 2.0 APG - 2015-2016
22.8 PPG (.535 TS%) 3.9 RPG 2.5 APG - 2017 through 20 games

What I'd like to see is for the Timberwolves to give more offensive responsibility to Towns and LaVine and for Wiggins to lower his usage rate and focus much more on defense.

[Ice Man]

I wouldnt doubt Wiggins

Watch on YouTube

I do. He's young, he's athletic, he can score, and he looks cool. The rest of his game is pure crap. He's in his 3rd year in the league and he does not yet help his team win games. It doesn't mean that he won't eventually become very good, because he might. But he strikes me as far from a sure thing. As with the Wolves fan above, I prefer LaVine.

And if the Wolves actually did have the chance to trade Wiggins for Butler this summer, and refused to pull the trigger ... well let's just hope for their sake that rumor was false.

[Leslie Forman]

And if the Wolves actually did have the chance to trade Wiggins for Butler this summer, and refused to pull the trigger ... well let's just hope for their sake that rumor was false.

I can understand why Thibs didn't in the summer. The third year is usually when you really see what a young player can do, and everybody assumed Jimmy Butler (a guy who's already proven the year 3 thing wrong) was maxed out.

Now, though? Unless Wiggins suddenly starts showing things he's never shown before over the next couple months, I'd absolutely offer him up for a Cousins/George/Wall.

[AirP.]

And if the Wolves actually did have the chance to trade Wiggins for Butler this summer, and refused to pull the trigger ... well let's just hope for their sake that rumor was false.

I can understand why Thibs didn't in the summer. The third year is usually when you really see what a young player can do, and everybody assumed Jimmy Butler (a guy who's already proven the year 3 thing wrong) was maxed out.

Well, Jimmy's 3rd year he played hurt most of the year with turf toe and he also had other injuries that also happened, so you really can't take too much from his 3rd season other then to know he would have put up better numbers healthy, not as high as his 4th year but not as low as his 3rd.

[ATRAIN53]

Remember Jimmy came into the league and made his name playing tough D on guys like Melo and LeBron.

It wasn't until yr 3 that he made a serious jump in scoring (by attacking the basket).

Wiggins came into the NBA expected to score 20 PPG.
He's not a true 2 way player like Jimmy has learned to be - YET.

MJ, LeBron, Kobe - those guys were stars and could always score - but they became SUPERSTARS when they turned into 2 way players.
Wiggins is gong to need to make this jump and become a lock down defender type before people call him a true star.
He's got the right coach, it's up to him now to put in that effort on the other side of the floor.

That will also catapault him into a leader role when he makes that step.
I think he's gonna do it, he's only 21 and just oozes talent.

I wish MN was on TV more, that is a roster I really like.
They aren't really getting 'blown out' every night for a 6-14 team. Losing by @ 10 points a night.
Wiggins playing at a DPOY level would could *almost* make up that margin....

[AirP.]

I wish MN was on TV more, that is a roster I really like.
They aren't really getting 'blown out' every night for a 6-14 team. Losing by @ 10 points a night.
Wiggins playing at a DPOY level would could *almost* make up that margin....

They could be at .500 with as many close games as they've lost, they've only won 1 game that was close while losing 5 by 4 points or less. They recently lost 2 games to NY by a total of 6 points. It's really interesting watching a young talented roster lose games because of basically losing focus, something you'd expect experience to fix.

I like young rosters but the difference between Minnesota and Philly is that Minnesota has a more complete roster while the 76ers have a bunch of redundancy at the center position. Philly would be really scary had they drafted one of the guards instead of Okafor, like Mudiay, Booker, Payne or even Hezonja. They really needed to be in the top 2 drafting in 2015 or trade down with Embiid and Noel already on the roster instead of drafting the best available player. Who knows, maybe Simmons playing a big PG may change things up for Philly. I will be watching a bunch of Philly games once Simmons is playing, his game seems to be a lot like LeBron's except for being a worse scorer/shooter.

[kodo]

EDIT: botched this stat badly to make it sound worse than it was

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