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OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★

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Who are you voting for?

Trump
18
22%
Hillary
41
50%
Jill Stein
7
9%
Gary Johnson
3
4%
Other
4
5%
Not Voting
9
11%
 
Total votes: 82

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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2001 » by League Circles » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:13 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
Okay, I see where the confusion is. You're assuming it's possible for the universe to warm the Earth, in a basic sense, it's absolutely not. The universe is very very very cold, close to absolute 0. That's why planets farther from the sun are much colder.

Yes, I am assuming that is possible (though far from a given or likely).

There is heat transfer via radiation between all bodies. The universe is definitely heating the earth. The earth, in turn, is definitely heating the universe. It is not obvious to me that the net rate of heat transfer is directed towards or away from the earth (but it is one or the other unless it is miraculously, exactly, and continuously, neutral).
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2002 » by coldfish » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:16 pm

Rerisen wrote:Anyhow, your comments in this thread are a bolt of rationality and common sense. Unfortunately, I don't think the atmosphere is at a place where such level discussion is going to win out over people shouting past each other.


Thanks.

In general, I think that the complete lack of respect and understanding that different groups have for each other is a huge problem. It causes us as a nation to make bad decisions.

I'll change topics a wee bit. Black Lives Matter. I have some issues with the movement. With that said, when you actually read what #BLM people have to say, it sheds light on a different culture and set of life experiences that I simply do not have. IMO, if republicans would spend some time understanding the forces and issues behind BLM, it would help them work with african americans. Just shouting down BLM or trying to change it to "all lives matter" or "blue lives matter" is really ignoring the issue.

I wish that the elitist democrats screaming to high heaven about the election would take some time to understand the issues regarding the working class people who flipped from Obama to Trump which were enough to change the results of the election.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2003 » by Ferulci » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:16 pm

As a French, I'm literally stunned that a country we usually look up to could elect that type of monster. It's terrifying to think how it could impact international relationship, global warming or Middle East situation. And I cant imagine what minorities, LGBT or even regular non-hateful americans must feel like.
I got mad respect for most of the board and its users but this is a very dark day for America.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2004 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:18 pm

League Circles wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:Alright, but if this were true: the Earth's temperature would have been increasing at a linear rate since its creation. Data shows this is obviously not the case.

A little more wordily: the inputs and outputs of heat to the earth can be assumed to be in equilibrium. If the sun were heating up, the Earth would be heating up at a supremely faster rate than it is now. If it were getting colder, our temp would be declining at a again faster rate. The Universe temperature is marginally above 0, on average, and neither the sun or Earth are ever making a dent in that.

So we're basically left wth the Earth: what's changing? It can't be more heat input, and it can't be the universe itself getting warmer, so it's got to be the Earth losing less heat. In other words, it's becoming more insulated. The data doesn't agree with really any thermodynamic explanation because the rate of change isn't linear. Something artificial is getting in the way.


Why would the bolded parts necessarily be true at all? I don't believe a universal assumption of equilibrium is at all consistent with what we can surmise about the universe, though I may be wrong. I'm definitely open to ideas.

Why can't the universe be getting warmer? Or colder? I have instincts and thoughts as to the answers to these questions but no confident position.

Nonetheless, I assume, for lack of better info, neutral input and output of heat exchange from earth. In which case, yes we are unavoidably causing global warming (as is every natural process on earth). All we can do is affect the rate of warming. And I support limiting that rate through worldwide policy and national policy.


Not sure if you saw my last reply, but I'll try to surmise it very briefly:

Temperature is a measure of molecular motion per unit space. Every particle in the universe started in a little jumble that had so much energy it exploded and started expanding and never stopped. Thus, with a fixed amount of energy (this is proven, in fact, by thermodynamics) the amount of motion possible in an ever-expanding area is astronomically tiny.

Further, the "temperature" of outer space HAS TO be zero (as in, would break the laws of physics were it not) because we've measured close to absolute zero. If the universe itself were not that cold, it WOULD NOT be possible for that level of cold to exist elsewhere.

Further, look what happens when you move away from the sun. Each successive planet gets colder. This would not happen if the universe weren't substantially colder than its inhabitants.

Finally, why isn't the universe getting hotter? It is, but by the same degree as if you lit a match and dropped it in the Atlantic Ocean and tried to measure it (and actually, the real effect is hundreds of thousands of times smaller than this.)
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2005 » by Talclipse » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:20 pm

League Circles wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Okay, I see where the confusion is. You're assuming it's possible for the universe to warm the Earth, in a basic sense, it's absolutely not. The universe is very very very cold, close to absolute 0. That's why planets farther from the sun are much colder.

Yes, I am assuming that is possible (though far from a given or likely).

There is heat transfer via radiation between all bodies. The universe is definitely heating the earth. The earth, in turn, is definitely heating the universe. It is not obvious to me that the net rate of heat transfer is directed towards or away from the earth (but it is one or the other unless it is miraculously, exactly, and continuously, neutral).


Hey since your talking about all that,got a honest question for ya.i dont jack about how the earth gets heated other then "its the sun" but how is it that in the dead of winter one day the temps can be a normal lets say 15-30°,and it can be that way for weeks just consistently cold as it should be in winter..then all of a sudden the temp jumps to 80° then back down to normal,then back up to 75..
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2006 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:21 pm

League Circles wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Okay, I see where the confusion is. You're assuming it's possible for the universe to warm the Earth, in a basic sense, it's absolutely not. The universe is very very very cold, close to absolute 0. That's why planets farther from the sun are much colder.

Yes, I am assuming that is possible (though far from a given or likely).

There is heat transfer via radiation between all bodies. The universe is definitely heating the earth. The earth, in turn, is definitely heating the universe. It is not obvious to me that the net rate of heat transfer is directed towards or away from the earth (but it is one or the other unless it is miraculously, exactly, and continuously, neutral).


If the universe were heating the earth, it would be heating all planets at the same rate. Pluto would be hotter than the Earth, since it is smaller.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2007 » by League Circles » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:23 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:Alright, but if this were true: the Earth's temperature would have been increasing at a linear rate since its creation. Data shows this is obviously not the case.

A little more wordily: the inputs and outputs of heat to the earth can be assumed to be in equilibrium. If the sun were heating up, the Earth would be heating up at a supremely faster rate than it is now. If it were getting colder, our temp would be declining at a again faster rate. The Universe temperature is marginally above 0, on average, and neither the sun or Earth are ever making a dent in that.

So we're basically left wth the Earth: what's changing? It can't be more heat input, and it can't be the universe itself getting warmer, so it's got to be the Earth losing less heat. In other words, it's becoming more insulated. The data doesn't agree with really any thermodynamic explanation because the rate of change isn't linear. Something artificial is getting in the way.


Why would the bolded parts necessarily be true at all? I don't believe a universal assumption of equilibrium is at all consistent with what we can surmise about the universe, though I may be wrong. I'm definitely open to ideas.

Why can't the universe be getting warmer? Or colder? I have instincts and thoughts as to the answers to these questions but no confident position.

Nonetheless, I assume, for lack of better info, neutral input and output of heat exchange from earth. In which case, yes we are unavoidably causing global warming (as is every natural process on earth). All we can do is affect the rate of warming. And I support limiting that rate through worldwide policy and national policy.


Not sure if you saw my last reply, but I'll try to surmise it very briefly:

Temperature is a measure of molecular motion per unit space. Every particle in the universe started in a little jumble that had so much energy it exploded and started expanding and never stopped. Thus, with a fixed amount of energy (this is proven, in fact, by thermodynamics) the amount of motion possible in an ever-expanding area is astronomically tiny.

Further, the "temperature" of outer space HAS TO be zero (as in, would break the laws of physics were it not) because we've measured close to absolute zero. If the universe itself were not that cold, it WOULD NOT be possible for that level of cold to exist elsewhere.

Further, look what happens when you move away from the sun. Each successive planet gets colder. This would not happen if the universe weren't substantially colder than its inhabitants.

Finally, why isn't the universe getting hotter? It is, but by the same degree as if you lit a match and dropped it in the Atlantic Ocean and tried to measure it (and actually, the real effect is hundreds of thousands of times smaller than this.)


I think I agree with your points about the universe getting colder continuously since the big bang. BUT, just to be clear, when I say "the universe" is radiating towards or away from the earth, I mean the other finite bodies in the universe which have real temps (some much higher and some much lower than earth), not "outer space".
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2008 » by Jeffster81 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:24 pm

The overreaction to Trump is pretty hilarious and this will be the last time I post in this thread.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2009 » by League Circles » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:24 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Okay, I see where the confusion is. You're assuming it's possible for the universe to warm the Earth, in a basic sense, it's absolutely not. The universe is very very very cold, close to absolute 0. That's why planets farther from the sun are much colder.

Yes, I am assuming that is possible (though far from a given or likely).

There is heat transfer via radiation between all bodies. The universe is definitely heating the earth. The earth, in turn, is definitely heating the universe. It is not obvious to me that the net rate of heat transfer is directed towards or away from the earth (but it is one or the other unless it is miraculously, exactly, and continuously, neutral).


If the universe were heating the earth, it would be heating all planets at the same rate. Pluto would be hotter than the Earth, since it is smaller.

I'm not talking about the near-zero energy in outer space heating planets, I'm talking about the net effect of all the bodies (all other stars, planets, asteroids, etc), some of which are heating us and some of which are cooling us.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2010 » by Mech Engineer » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:25 pm

Trump got less total votes than McCain or Romney. That tells we have issues. There are people who screwed up by not voting. That is in on the Democrats. But, you also read about how Republicans tried to screw black voters, early voters with rules to make it difficult to vote.

This election is hopefully an eye opener for minorities or people who didn't care to vote and now complaining about what happened in the election.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2011 » by League Circles » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:26 pm

Talclipse wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Okay, I see where the confusion is. You're assuming it's possible for the universe to warm the Earth, in a basic sense, it's absolutely not. The universe is very very very cold, close to absolute 0. That's why planets farther from the sun are much colder.

Yes, I am assuming that is possible (though far from a given or likely).

There is heat transfer via radiation between all bodies. The universe is definitely heating the earth. The earth, in turn, is definitely heating the universe. It is not obvious to me that the net rate of heat transfer is directed towards or away from the earth (but it is one or the other unless it is miraculously, exactly, and continuously, neutral).


Hey since your talking about all that,got a honest question for ya.i dont jack about how the earth gets heated other then "its the sun" but how is it that in the dead of winter one day the temps can be a normal lets say 15-30°,and it can be that way for weeks just consistently cold as it should be in winter..then all of a sudden the temp jumps to 80° then back down to normal,then back up to 75..

Well the earth is heated by factors other than the sun, and you are talking about local temps which are subject to all sorts of difficult-to-model phenomena.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2012 » by Rerisen » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:27 pm

coldfish wrote:I'll change topics a wee bit. Black Lives Matter. I have some issues with the movement. With that said, when you actually read what #BLM people have to say, it sheds light on a different culture and set of life experiences that I simply do not have. IMO, if republicans would spend some time understanding the forces and issues behind BLM, it would help them work with african americans. Just shouting down BLM or trying to change it to "all lives matter" or "blue lives matter" is really ignoring the issue.


No doubt. And failure to address these issues at their most base level, when they are small, allows outside more nefarious forces to exploit or co-opt such movements, than can then make the atmosphere absolutely toxic and 10x harder to resolve them.

I wish that the elitist democrats screaming to high heaven about the election would take some time to understand the issues regarding the working class people who flipped from Obama to Trump which were enough to change the results of the election.


As I wrote earlier, this election result showed that you have to argue real ideas to persuade voters and win. Both sides were hugely negative and demonizing, but one did better articulating really specific topics that mattered to many people.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2013 » by Susan » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:30 pm

Talclipse wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Okay, I see where the confusion is. You're assuming it's possible for the universe to warm the Earth, in a basic sense, it's absolutely not. The universe is very very very cold, close to absolute 0. That's why planets farther from the sun are much colder.

Yes, I am assuming that is possible (though far from a given or likely).

There is heat transfer via radiation between all bodies. The universe is definitely heating the earth. The earth, in turn, is definitely heating the universe. It is not obvious to me that the net rate of heat transfer is directed towards or away from the earth (but it is one or the other unless it is miraculously, exactly, and continuously, neutral).


Hey since your talking about all that,got a honest question for ya.i dont jack about how the earth gets heated other then "its the sun" but how is it that in the dead of winter one day the temps can be a normal lets say 15-30°,and it can be that way for weeks just consistently cold as it should be in winter..then all of a sudden the temp jumps to 80° then back down to normal,then back up to 75..


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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2014 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:31 pm

League Circles wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Why would the bolded parts necessarily be true at all? I don't believe a universal assumption of equilibrium is at all consistent with what we can surmise about the universe, though I may be wrong. I'm definitely open to ideas.

Why can't the universe be getting warmer? Or colder? I have instincts and thoughts as to the answers to these questions but no confident position.

Nonetheless, I assume, for lack of better info, neutral input and output of heat exchange from earth. In which case, yes we are unavoidably causing global warming (as is every natural process on earth). All we can do is affect the rate of warming. And I support limiting that rate through worldwide policy and national policy.


Not sure if you saw my last reply, but I'll try to surmise it very briefly:

Temperature is a measure of molecular motion per unit space. Every particle in the universe started in a little jumble that had so much energy it exploded and started expanding and never stopped. Thus, with a fixed amount of energy (this is proven, in fact, by thermodynamics) the amount of motion possible in an ever-expanding area is astronomically tiny.

Further, the "temperature" of outer space HAS TO be zero (as in, would break the laws of physics were it not) because we've measured close to absolute zero. If the universe itself were not that cold, it WOULD NOT be possible for that level of cold to exist elsewhere.

Further, look what happens when you move away from the sun. Each successive planet gets colder. This would not happen if the universe weren't substantially colder than its inhabitants.

Finally, why isn't the universe getting hotter? It is, but by the same degree as if you lit a match and dropped it in the Atlantic Ocean and tried to measure it (and actually, the real effect is hundreds of thousands of times smaller than this.)


I think I agree with your points about the universe getting colder continuously since the big bang. BUT, just to be clear, when I say "the universe" is radiating towards or away from the earth, I mean the other finite bodies in the universe which have real temps (some much higher and some much lower than earth), not "outer space".


Because the only body that's close enough to the earth to warm it is the sun. With respect to the system [sun and earth] the "surroundig" (read: universe) temperature is effectively 0. If I light a match here in prague, you're not going to feel it in a Chicago.

Get away from scientific terms for a second. You *know* this intuitively. Heat goes from hot thing to cold thing. If the universe were warming the Earth, the universe would have to be HOTTER THAN THE EARTH. Otherwise, there is no possible way for the universe to heat the earth, because of Thermodynamics.

How do we know the universe is not heating the earth? Because other planets are colder than the earth. If all the radiation in the universe hitting earth summed to hotter than the earth, it would simply not be possible for any planet to be colder than the earth.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2015 » by Mech Engineer » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:34 pm

My one hope is Trump realizes that a president's job is very tough and it is easy to criticize from outside. That is why most presidents succeed at the rate of Joakim s 3 pt shooting. If there is one positive about him, it's that he can change his mind on anything very easily. On the other hand , he can do something crazy if someone tells nice things about him.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2016 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:37 pm

League Circles wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
League Circles wrote:Yes, I am assuming that is possible (though far from a given or likely).

There is heat transfer via radiation between all bodies. The universe is definitely heating the earth. The earth, in turn, is definitely heating the universe. It is not obvious to me that the net rate of heat transfer is directed towards or away from the earth (but it is one or the other unless it is miraculously, exactly, and continuously, neutral).


If the universe were heating the earth, it would be heating all planets at the same rate. Pluto would be hotter than the Earth, since it is smaller.

I'm not talking about the near-zero energy in outer space heating planets, I'm talking about the net effect of all the bodies (all other stars, planets, asteroids, etc), some of which are heating us and some of which are cooling us.


There is no difference between the heat of outer space and heat of bodies. They are equivalent.

They have to be, because think of how little distance heat can travel. The sun is 93 million miles away. The next closest star is 2x10^13 million miles away.

Think about how fast the sun's heat dies. By the time it reaches Pluto, it heats it far less than the earth. If the next closest neighbor is that far away, there is literally no possibility of it heating Earth to any meaningful degree. That's simple not how heat transfer works.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2017 » by League Circles » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:37 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:Because the only body that's close enough to the earth to warm it is the sun. With respect to the system [sun and earth] the "surroundig" (read: universe) temperature is effectively 0. If I light a match here in prague, you're not going to feel it in a Chicago.

Get away from scientific terms for a second. You *know* this intuitively. Heat goes from hot thing to cold thing. If the universe were warming the Earth, the universe would have to be HOTTER THAN THE EARTH. Otherwise, there is no possible way for the universe to heat the earth, because of Thermodynamics.

How do we know the universe is not heating the earth? Because other planets are colder than the earth. If all the radiation in the universe hitting earth summed to hotter than the earth, it would simply not be possible for any planet to be colder than the earth.


You are mistaken. Saying the universe can't heat the earth because the temp of outer space is lower than the temp of the earth is like saying the sun can't heat the inside of your closed-windows car because the air temp outside your car is lower than the air temp inside your car.

ALL bodies with temperature differentials exchange heat via radiation (and, if matter allows it, conduction, and if fluid flow allows it, convection), regardless of how far away they are.

Do you deny that every body in the universe with a higher temp than earth is heating earth, and that every body with a lower temp than earth is being heated by the earth?
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2018 » by coldfish » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:41 pm

League Circles wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Okay, I see where the confusion is. You're assuming it's possible for the universe to warm the Earth, in a basic sense, it's absolutely not. The universe is very very very cold, close to absolute 0. That's why planets farther from the sun are much colder.

Yes, I am assuming that is possible (though far from a given or likely).

There is heat transfer via radiation between all bodies. The universe is definitely heating the earth. The earth, in turn, is definitely heating the universe. It is not obvious to me that the net rate of heat transfer is directed towards or away from the earth (but it is one or the other unless it is miraculously, exactly, and continuously, neutral).


Sometimes I like your posts, sometimes I think you are being intentionally obtuse just to rile people up. I'm not entirely sure on this one.

When the earth's temperature isn't changing, its because the energy coming in is balanced with the energy leaving. CO2 prevents some energy from leaving, so what has to happen is the earth has to warm enough to emit more energy and get back into balance. Given that radiative heat loss is a function of temperature to the fourth power, it doesn't take much warming to come back into balance.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2019 » by League Circles » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:43 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
If the universe were heating the earth, it would be heating all planets at the same rate. Pluto would be hotter than the Earth, since it is smaller.

I'm not talking about the near-zero energy in outer space heating planets, I'm talking about the net effect of all the bodies (all other stars, planets, asteroids, etc), some of which are heating us and some of which are cooling us.


There is no difference between the heat of outer space and heat of bodies. They are equivalent.

Of course there is. I mean, I understand what I think you're saying - that they can be and sometimes are modeled as one body (the "universe"), but no, the next nearest star is drastically hotter than the outer space around it, or Pluto, or whatever. But there are all sorts of things done for modeling reasons in science that are inconsistent with fundamental theory - such as modeling processes as isentropic when they cannot be.
They have to be, because think of how little distance heat can travel. The sun is 93 million miles away. The next closest star is 2x10^13 million miles away.

Think about how fast the sun's heat dies. By the time it reaches Pluto, it heats it far less than the earth. If the next closest neighbor is that far away, there is literally no possibility of it heating Earth to any meaningful degree. That's simple not how heat transfer works.

Where do you think the energy of the sun goes? Energy doesn't die, and it doesn't change forms to higher quality forms of energy (like mechanical energy) on it's own.
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Re: OT: The next President of the United States: ★★★ Donald Trump ★★★ 

Post#2020 » by RedBulls23 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:45 pm

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Lol ill buy my "rope" if you buy a one way plane ticket to ummm i think Iraq would be a Fantastic place for you "like minded" fokes to set up shop.

Hey you all would be doing us a favor actually,we wouldn't have to fight isis then,you all could explain and Express your feelings,and demand your gay rights in such a way that would make their frecking heads explode and save us our bombs.

Yeap your right Turmp did have it wrong.we dont need to bomb the **** out of them,we will just send them YOU and your buddies.maybe you guys can emasculate them to the point where we just need to tell the isis fighters they have a big fat ass and they run to their caves and cry about their feelings insteed of blowing everything to ****.

Well, actually countries as Iraq, Saudi,etc would be better for people with similiar opinions like yours. No gay rights, stoning for being gay, religion in the government, let's not talk about abortion...perfect.

Bulls basketball now, I think the discussion here is nearing its end.



Actually this country was founded by people that have like minds as myself and Trump supporters.you guys are the anomalies that wish to take over,kinda how Al Qaeda and Isis want to take over...soooo yeah i said it you sick pricks are the terrorists in a land that doesn't want your views and are sick of hearing your belly acking.

THis is the type of posting that is absolutely not allowed here.

And with that said, I think it's quite time we lock this thread up. If you guys want to continue talk politics, we have a board for that.
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