Starters: defense, no shooting; bench: shooting, no defense

logical_art · Post #1 » by **logical_art** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:08 pm

Obviously the subject is a little bit of an exaggeration but not much. Assuming Taj starts, the Bulls probably have the best defensive and worst shooting starting five in the league.

The bench is the opposite - one of the best shooting and worst defending benches in the league.

Is this imbalance a problem?

Hangtime84 · Post #2 » by **Hangtime84** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:16 pm

Are you watching the games cause starters are playing well.

Our bench isn't bad they are inconsistent because of lack of experience.

Overall tho the bulls team basketball IQ has increased significantly.

logical_art · Post #3 » by **logical_art** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:03 pm

Hangtime84 wrote:Are you watching the games cause starters are playing well.

Our bench isn't bad they are inconsistent because of lack of experience.

Overall tho the bulls team basketball IQ has increased significantly.

It's been a few games of preseason. We have tons of data showing the starters are not good shooters and showing that good shooting is correlated with good offense.

kyrv · Post #4 » by **kyrv** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:09 pm

Buried lead, Niko needs to start over Taj. And I can't make a great argument against it.

logical_art · Post #5 » by **logical_art** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:12 pm

kyrv wrote:Buried lead, Niko needs to start over Taj. And I can't make a great argument against it.

I agree but he's just not good and I'm not sure it's good for team moral to start a much worse player over a much better player.

I still can't believe what has happened to Niko. I can't remember another rookie showing so much ability and then just falling off a cliff.

Hangtime84 · Post #6 » by **Hangtime84** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:29 pm

logical_art wrote:
Hangtime84 wrote:Are you watching the games cause starters are playing well.

Our bench isn't bad they are inconsistent because of lack of experience.

Overall tho the bulls team basketball IQ has increased significantly.

It's been a few games of preseason. We have tons of data showing the starters are not good shooters and showing that good shooting is correlated with good offense.

We've scored 115 and 120 pts. Bulls issue isn't scoring and taj is benefiting as a starter.

This is preseason lots of guys are feeling each other's out. This thread is way too soon for any real data analysis.

AirP. · Post #7 » by **AirP.** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:08 pm

Hangtime84 wrote:Are you watching the games cause starters are playing well.

Our bench isn't bad they are inconsistent because of lack of experience.

Overall tho the bulls team basketball IQ has increased significantly.

Interesting that their +/- has mostly been -(atleast the last 3 games I'm looking at). Wade's been ok with -9, +17 and +5, Rondo...-9 and -4, Lopez -15, -13, +4, now mind you these last numbers were against a d league level cleveland cav squad. One of the younger players needs to really step up if this isn't going to be a disaster of a season(record wise and not tanking for a high pick). The last 3 games have been the bench doing the best in +/- for the roster.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/chicago-bulls-indiana-pacers-2016100611/
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/indiana-pacers-chicago-bulls-2016100804/
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/cleveland-cavaliers-chicago-bulls-2016101404/

logical_art · Post #8 » by **logical_art** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:22 pm

Hangtime84 wrote:
logical_art wrote:
Hangtime84 wrote:Are you watching the games cause starters are playing well.

Our bench isn't bad they are inconsistent because of lack of experience.

Overall tho the bulls team basketball IQ has increased significantly.

It's been a few games of preseason. We have tons of data showing the starters are not good shooters and showing that good shooting is correlated with good offense.

We've scored 115 and 120 pts. Bulls issue isn't scoring and taj is benefiting as a starter.

This is preseason lots of guys are feeling each other's out. This thread is way too soon for any real data analysis.

Too soon for analysis and yet you're basing optimism off the preseason? That's logically inconsistant.

All five starters are vets. All have proven to be bad to mediocre shooters. It is highly improbably any one of them let alone more than one become good shooters.

We also have years and years of league evidence showing that it is very difficult to overcome bad shooting and have a good offense.

I'm discussing empirical facts. I don't need to wait and see to state them.

the ultimates · Post #9 » by **the ultimates** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:56 pm

The Miami Heat won 48 games and got to the second round while being one of the worst three point shooting teams in the league. Despite the lack of shooting the ball has moved well and the offense has looked fluid. Where were all the great three point shooters in starting lineup last year? The Bulls made 7.9 three's a game compared to Boston at 8.7 and Indy at 8.1. The "lack of three point shooting" and spacing isn't based in any actual numbers the Bulls put up.

kyrv · Post #10 » by **kyrv** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:10 pm

logical_art wrote:
kyrv wrote:Buried lead, Niko needs to start over Taj. And I can't make a great argument against it.

I agree but he's just not good and I'm not sure it's good for team moral to start a much worse player over a much better player.

I still can't believe what has happened to Niko. I can't remember another rookie showing so much ability and then just falling off a cliff.

This is the vaunted year three for Niko. Crossing fingers. If Niko can play well and start to help the balance, huge help.

But I agree if he plays poorly, just start a better player and make do.

kodo · Post #11 » by **kodo** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 4:33 am

If pre-season is any indication, Bulls are perfectly average in both 3P% (15th) and #s of makes (16th), so it's far from the worst shooting team in the league.

If Niko gets his shooting rhythm mid to late season as usual, the Bulls should be average or better; which is far better than anyone gave them credit for.

Preseason 3P% shooting (obviously super low sample size)
- Doug 42.9%
- Niko 28.0%
- Wade 55.6%
- Rondo 50%
- Snell 37.5%
- Canaan 36.4%

Anyone over 33% is a threat, and that's everyone other than Mirotic who will more likely than not get there by the end of the season.

RakimAbdulJabar · Post #12 » by **RakimAbdulJabar** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:10 am

Where are you seeing them as 15th in 3 point %? I'm seeing them as 3rd so far in preseason

As far as starters having defense...well I know the lineups are muddled in preseason BUT the Bulls have been allowing way too many points in the 1st half for me to believe the starters are doing a great job defensively. I will say that obviously Butler not playing much, the starters in these games not necessarily going to start and getting accustomed to each other plays a role BUT it hasn't looked good so far

Here are the 1st half points they have allowed so far this preseason

Game 1 vs Bucks - 55 points
Game 2 vs Pacers - 65 points
Game 3 vs Pacers - 49 points
Game 4 vs Cavs - 63 points
Game 5 vs Bucks - 60 points

The Bucks are the only team they've held under 100 (twice) in preseason

SimonFish · Post #13 » by **SimonFish** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:11 am

logical_art wrote:
kyrv wrote:Buried lead, Niko needs to start over Taj. And I can't make a great argument against it.

I agree but he's just not good and I'm not sure it's good for team moral to start a much worse player over a much better player.

I still can't believe what has happened to Niko. I can't remember another rookie showing so much ability and then just falling off a cliff.

now we have another one in MCW.

Post #14 » by **kulaz3000** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:22 am

Well they've just added one of the better guard defenders in the league, so that's a start.

Mobby · Post #15 » by **Mobby** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:26 am

kulaz3000 wrote:Well they've just added one of the better guard defenders in the league, so that's a start.

It's an interesting move on the part of the front office for two reasons:
1. They think there's enough shooting on the team.
2. They think they have enough wings as compared to point guards.

This implies a few things; perhaps they've seen something from the starters that we haven't as far as shooting goes, and one of the people we thought would be ok at PG probably isn't. There's Rondo, Grant, Dinwiddie, Canaan, and Valentine. The latter two were never really PGs to begin with, so this probably says something about both/either of Grant and/or Dinwiddie.

I think MCW's been put into a bad position with the Bucks, but are the Bulls really any better? We do have better shooting off the bench, so hopefully MCW will be able to utilize that to cover for his poor shooting.

Bulls03 · Post #16 » by **Bulls03** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:31 pm

We will mix and match a lot of different lineups. Our starting lineup may not be our closing lineup but I guarantee Wade Butler and Lopez will
Be out there in closing minutes. Probably Rondo but they may go with 2 spot up shooters out there.

Axxo · Post #17 » by **Axxo** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:35 pm

It will be utter chaos...they just threw a bunch of whatevers together and are trying to rationalize it to the fans.

Post #18 » by **coldfish** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:41 pm

I have said this in other threads.

How virtually every coach with more than two functioning neurons handles a team like Chicago is to sub Wade out early and replace him with a shooter. Then Wade comes in when Butler comes out and leads the second unit.

If Hoiberg does some type of hockey line substitution pattern where the starters play together and then the bench plays together, he should be fired immediately. Assuming some modicum of intelligence, the vast majority of the game will feature a mix of bench guys and starters. Perhaps the entire game other than the first 4 minutes.

weneeda2guard · Post #19 » by **weneeda2guard** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:50 pm

kulaz3000 wrote:Well they've just added one of the better guard defenders in the league, so that's a start.

It's the most underrated parts of this trade, that everyone seems to ignore because people are still caught up in narrow-minded nba analysis worried about floor spacing and shooting.

We can score with anyone, that much is evident at this point. The issue is our defense, and especially the part of who will defend all these superstar pgs in this league. Rose was an okay defender when he wanted to give effort and plus rose could counter with his own production. Rondo is a poorer defender than rose (from eye test, don't know about official data) and can't really counter by attacking on the offensive end.

Now we can throw MCW on the curry, liliard, westbrook, cp3, lowry etc barrage of star pgs we will have to face almost nightly. We can also counter with a bucks play that hurt us and post up MCW on smaller guards.

Again very great trade, don't know why anyone could hate it.

drosestruts · Post #20 » by **drosestruts** » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:54 pm

kyrv wrote:Buried lead, Niko needs to start over Taj. And I can't make a great argument against it.

This is true, but Fred will look bad for saying it was an open competition, as that would suggest that who plays best, gets the spot, and Taj has played best by far. Instead he could have said something like, "we'll take a look at some different lineup options to see what gives us the best balance going forward allowing us to have success with not only our starters, but our second unit too"