Around the NBA: 2016-17 Regular Season

[veji1]

We are in Hell. Hell. Basketball Hell. With no hope in getting better. And management wont tank to get worse so one day we can get better. Truly the darkest timeline.

Man, i don't want to be rude but this type of comment is just... how can I put it, very shortsighted ?

Look you have to look at the whole picture. a team was built around Rose and Thibs and a defensive identity, it peaked, it crashed because of injuries, tempers soured, the team had to move on. Luckily in the whole process they had discovered in Jimmy a gem around which to move on.

So the FO tried to retool around Butler and the young parts (Miro, McD, Portis, etc..). They trade away Rose for Lopez (good move) let Noah and Gasol leave, and now have Butler, Gibson, a few young guys and... nothing.. Was signing Wade and Rondo a good move ? Probably not, they signed Rondo earlier and then when Wade became available, they jumped on it. It means the team lacks shooting, and Rondo is who he is. But they aren't married to those players for a long time.

So the first year of the retool is average to mediocre, but it's too early to call it hell and declare that only a tank job will do. What matters now is how they rebound next summer, if they can leverage some players for someone, etc..

To be in NBA hell you have to be stuck in an endless cycle of irrelevance. This isn't the case for this Bulls yet.

I mean, we had 2 good regular seasons and 1 good playoff run since Jordan left after the '98 Finals. It's been rebuild after rebuild after retool after retool. He's not wrong when he says basketball hell. Bulls struck dumb luck in 2008 getting #1 pick. How many times can we strike luck? What our front office has done in free agency besides the summer of 2010 has been pathetic after Jordan left.

Sometimes I wonder if guys think the NBA is easy, that it's easy to lead a franchise to a title, to build a team that goes very deep in the play offs, etc.. guys, it's just super hard. Since 98 the Bulls have been deeper in the playoffs then a good 20 teams in the NBA, and it's a 20 years sample of what many feel here has been NBA hell !

Guys it's very difficult business.. To make a somewhat silly analogy, because competitive sport is different, you are basically saying to a sudent that is in the middle of his class that he is an abject failure, in hell, because only being in the top 3 or 4 is acceptable.

[Red Larrivee]

And basketball hell was 1998-99 to 2003-04

No, thats what we call fun.

[Ice Man]

Since 98 the Bulls have been deeper in the playoffs then a good 20 teams in the NBA, and it's a 20 years sample of what many feel here has been NBA hell !

Teams who have clearly been worse than us over the past 15 years -

Kings
Jazz
Wolves
Blazers
Houston
Denver
Nets
Wizards
Hornets
Pistons
Bucks
Hawks

That's almost half the league right there. Plus several other teams that have been roughly as good as us. I mean, Clippers ... good for the past few years, but bad before then, and haven't made a WCF. Can we really complain more than them?

I'm alright with the criticism of GarPax. They have made mistakes, it probably is time to go. But when the complaints start to imply how easy this should be, and how we should pity ourselves being fans of a team that has been so badly run, ummm nope. Not close.

[veji1]

And basketball hell was 1998-99 to 2003-04

No, thats what we call fun.

That was true rebuild from the start and it took the 7th season to get back in the playoffs. And from then on, in the next 12 seaons we have made the playoffs 10 times, with 1 ECF, 3 second rounds and 6 first rounds to show for it. If that's NBA hell, god have mercy hell must be full to the gills !

[veji1]

Since 98 the Bulls have been deeper in the playoffs then a good 20 teams in the NBA, and it's a 20 years sample of what many feel here has been NBA hell !

Teams who have clearly been worse than us over the past 15 years -

Kings
Jazz
Wolves
Blazers
Houston
Denver
Nets
Wizards
Hornets
Pistons
Bucks
Hawks

That's almost half the league right there. Plus several other teams that have been roughly as good as us. I mean, Clippers ... good for the past few years, but bad before then, and haven't made a WCF. Can we really complain more than them?

I'm alright with the criticism of GarPax. They have made mistakes, it probably is time to go. But when the complaints start to imply how easy this should be, and how we should pity ourselves being fans of a team that has been so badly run, ummm nope. Not close.

Exactly, I think the team needs new influx in the FO as well, but some here just go over the top in their reactions... I mean coming here I sometimes feel like I am listening to a bad rendition of Allegri's miserere

[Mech Engineer]

Since 98 the Bulls have been deeper in the playoffs then a good 20 teams in the NBA, and it's a 20 years sample of what many feel here has been NBA hell !

Teams who have clearly been worse than us over the past 15 years -

Kings
Jazz
Wolves
Blazers
Houston
Denver
Nets
Wizards
Hornets
Pistons
Bucks
Hawks

That's almost half the league right there. Plus several other teams that have been roughly as good as us. I mean, Clippers ... good for the past few years, but bad before then, and haven't made a WCF. Can we really complain more than them?

I'm alright with the criticism of GarPax. They have made mistakes, it probably is time to go. But when the complaints start to imply how easy this should be, and how we should pity ourselves being fans of a team that has been so badly run, ummm nope. Not close.

Not getting into the mistakes of free agency, drafts or trades(all teams have that problem)....we need to acknowledge that the Bulls have a definite advantage over all those teams. The Bulls have had ownership stability unlike most of those teams to have a good process. There is no uncertainties of changes in ownership...reduce salaries, get rid of contracts etc...

Plus, the Bulls are in a major market which is always appealing to players compared to those teams. And, tradition/aura of MJ/championships has not been translated to basketball advantages.

The Bulls should be a lot better than most of these organizations.

[MrSparkle]

Basketball hell is the Suns and Nets:

Check out PHX during the Nash years. A cheap owner didn't want to pay up and keep his best talent, in favor of saving money and consolidating the roster. Sure they ran into bad luck (Spurs ejections, Amare's surgeries), but overall, he still let tons of talent go, mainly for cap savings (Johnson, Q-Rich and Nate Robinson, Rondo, Gortat, Rudy Fernandez). We're talking about literal salary dumps featuring numerous high-caliber players... for straight cash, on a finals contender. Then they did another salary dump (Kurt Thomas) in which they sent out 2 more 1st picks (including Serge Ibaka). To top it all off, they traded Goran Dragic and a 1st for Aaron Brooks. Then they dumped Marion for an expiring old Shaq, whom they then dumped for post-Bulls Ben Wallace's expiring deal. Basically a total ****-show. To make things worse, they don't even own that Lakers pick they swindled for Nash -- somehow it ended up in Philly's hands (just checked: LOL, Brandon Knight was acquired for Dragic, Isaiah Thomas and that Lakers pick -- good *'ing grief).

Minus the horrible draft pick trades (GarPax's 1 major redeeming point as GMs), there is a similarity to Reinsdorf's Bulls. Anytime a trade did happen for Sarver's Suns, the prime objective was creating cap-space. Not adding talent. I suppose the luxury of having a contending team with an MVP PG made picks more expendable, something that would never happen with pick-loving Pax, but the "addition-by-subtraction" trades totally ring a bell.

Standing pat and "addition by subtraction" might've worked in the 80s-90s, but it doesn't anymore. The winners are the teams that are very active in upgrade trades and free agency, every summer. They don't blow their chances on cap savings. They go all in.

I was basically stunned when I saw the Bulls stand pat after 2010/11. I mean, we got owned by the Heat after the first few games. It was a 4-1 series loss. Miami made some upgrades (Battier, Cole). We weren't "1 shooting guard away," especially not 1 old Rip Hamilton away. In many ways, Rip was a downgrade from Bogans, who played really tenacious defense and atleast stayed healthy.

Then, it's like... OK, we have this bad ACL disaster. I get it. So let's just lose the entire bench and everybody's bird rights, knowing that we'll not have cap-space for another 3 years? I mean, the plan was to compete when Rose was back, right? 3 years is a long-time to wait out a "window." It's times like that where I wish we had a Mark Cuban, whose real interest was always winning.

[kingkirk]

The Wolves will test you.

Towns and Thibs will see me through this.

[kingkirk]

Teams who have clearly been worse than us over the past 15 years -

Kings
Jazz
Wolves
Blazers
Houston
Denver
Nets
Wizards
Hornets
Pistons
Bucks
Hawks

That's almost half the league right there. Plus several other teams that have been roughly as good as us. I mean, Clippers ... good for the past few years, but bad before then, and haven't made a WCF. Can we really complain more than them?

I'm alright with the criticism of GarPax. They have made mistakes, it probably is time to go. But when the complaints start to imply how easy this should be, and how we should pity ourselves being fans of a team that has been so badly run, ummm nope. Not close.

I would certainly challenge several of those teams you listed. Houston, Utah, Denver all had long runs of making the postseason for consecutive years, even reaching the WCF in some instances in a far tougher conference.

I'm not sure what you're basing it on, but there almost no way I put the Rockets on this list as being worse than the Bulls.

[Dan Z]

Basketball hell is the Suns and Nets:

Check out PHX during the Nash years. A cheap owner didn't want to pay up and keep his best talent, in favor of saving money and consolidating the roster. Sure they ran into bad luck (Spurs ejections, Amare's surgeries), but overall, he still let tons of talent go, mainly for cap savings (Johnson, Q-Rich and Nate Robinson, Rondo, Gortat, Rudy Fernandez). We're talking about literal salary dumps featuring numerous high-caliber players... for straight cash, on a finals contender. Then they did another salary dump (Kurt Thomas) in which they sent out 2 more 1st picks (including Serge Ibaka). To top it all off, they traded Goran Dragic and a 1st for Aaron Brooks. Then they dumped Marion for an expiring old Shaq, whom they then dumped for post-Bulls Ben Wallace's expiring deal. Basically a total ****-show. To make things worse, they don't even own that Lakers pick they swindled for Nash -- somehow it ended up in Philly's hands (just checked: LOL, Brandon Knight was acquired for Dragic, Isaiah Thomas and that Lakers pick -- good *'ing grief).

Didn't we also get the draft pick that became Luol Deng from the Suns?

[League Circles]

Teams who have clearly been worse than us over the past 15 years -

Kings
Jazz
Wolves
Blazers
Houston
Denver
Nets
Wizards
Hornets
Pistons
Bucks
Hawks

That's almost half the league right there. Plus several other teams that have been roughly as good as us. I mean, Clippers ... good for the past few years, but bad before then, and haven't made a WCF. Can we really complain more than them?

I'm alright with the criticism of GarPax. They have made mistakes, it probably is time to go. But when the complaints start to imply how easy this should be, and how we should pity ourselves being fans of a team that has been so badly run, ummm nope. Not close.

I would certainly challenge several of those teams you listed. Houston, Utah, Denver all had long runs of making the postseason for consecutive years, even reaching the WCF in some instances in a far tougher conference.

I'm not sure what you're basing it on, but there almost no way I put the Rockets on this list as being worse than the Bulls.

They've missed the playoffs more times than the Bulls during the Pax era, reached a lower peak, and fared a little worse in the playoffs (only past the first round twice vs 4 times for the Bulls).

[Rerisen]

Waiting for the day Wolves and Philly take over the league. Shortly after Lebron has his imminent downfall...whenever that'd be

No Bucks?

While they are looking a better bet all the time, the Bucks have supposed to have been the "Next Big Thing" for a couple years now. Right now they are still much more talent potential than realization of winning.

[Lauri_Legend]

Waiting for the day Wolves and Philly take over the league. Shortly after Lebron has his imminent downfall...whenever that'd be

No Bucks?

While they are looking a better bet all the time, the Bucks have supposed to have been the "Next Big Thing" for a couple years now. Right now they are still much more talent potential than realization of winning.

No Bucks. Because Jabari will be coming back home to Chicago

[kyrv]

And basketball hell was 1998-99 to 2003-04

No, thats what we call fun.

That was true rebuild from the start and it took the 7th season to get back in the playoffs. And from then on, in the next 12 seaons we have made the playoffs 10 times, with 1 ECF, 3 second rounds and 6 first rounds to show for it. If that's NBA hell, god have mercy hell must be full to the gills !

He's being sarcastic, sucking sucks. I agree, if that's hell, much more awesome than advertised.

Your other lengthy and great response, that person proclaimed themselves a Bucks fan fyi.

[kyrv]

Basketball hell is the Suns and Nets:

Check out PHX during the Nash years. A cheap owner didn't want to pay up and keep his best talent, in favor of saving money and consolidating the roster. Sure they ran into bad luck (Spurs ejections, Amare's surgeries), but overall, he still let tons of talent go, mainly for cap savings (Johnson, Q-Rich and Nate Robinson, Rondo, Gortat, Rudy Fernandez). We're talking about literal salary dumps featuring numerous high-caliber players... for straight cash, on a finals contender. Then they did another salary dump (Kurt Thomas) in which they sent out 2 more 1st picks (including Serge Ibaka). To top it all off, they traded Goran Dragic and a 1st for Aaron Brooks. Then they dumped Marion for an expiring old Shaq, whom they then dumped for post-Bulls Ben Wallace's expiring deal. Basically a total ****-show. To make things worse, they don't even own that Lakers pick they swindled for Nash -- somehow it ended up in Philly's hands (just checked: LOL, Brandon Knight was acquired for Dragic, Isaiah Thomas and that Lakers pick -- good *'ing grief).

Didn't we also get the draft pick that became Luol Deng from the Suns?

Not only that, the Suns had the same offer from two teams and pickec the Bulls because they would be worse and yield the better next year's pick. They guessed wrong.

Bulls have been one of the more stable and better run teams under JR.

Using our Bulls microscope, very few teams look good.

[kyrv]

Waiting for the day Wolves and Philly take over the league. Shortly after Lebron has his imminent downfall...whenever that'd be

No Bucks?

While they are looking a better bet all the time, the Bucks have supposed to have been the "Next Big Thing" for a couple years now. Right now they are still much more talent potential than realization of winning.

How many exciting young teams have won titles? GS is the only example I can think of that drafted and kept players and won a title. OKC, well...almost?

[Jcool0]

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[kingkirk]

They've missed the playoffs more times than the Bulls during the Pax era, reached a lower peak, and fared a little worse in the playoffs (only past the first round twice vs 4 times for the Bulls).

You referring to Houston?

Their peak was the WCF. Ours was the ECF. They've been in a far tougher conference, so comparing first round wins is not really a fair exercise given they've had to go through the Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, Warriors etc.

Last time the Bulls made the playoffs, they played a sub 500 Bucks team in the first round.

[League Circles]

They've missed the playoffs more times than the Bulls during the Pax era, reached a lower peak, and fared a little worse in the playoffs (only past the first round twice vs 4 times for the Bulls).

You referring to Houston?

Their peak was the WCF. Ours was the ECF. They've been in a far tougher conference, so comparing first round wins is not really a fair exercise given they've had to go through the Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, Warriors etc.

Last time the Bulls made the playoffs, they played a sub 500 Bucks team in the first round.

Yes I was referring to Houston. IDK, the west has maybe had more talent over that time, but I'll always still attribute a lot of the difference in head to head records to the time difference/body clock advantage that western teams will always have. Our peak of ECF also involved back to league #1 records. Theirs didn't.

[kingkirk]

Yes I was referring to Houston. IDK, the west has maybe had more talent over that time, but I'll always still attribute a lot of the difference in head to head records to the time difference/body clock advantage that western teams will always have. Our peak of ECF also involved back to league #1 records. Theirs didn't.

Even if I agreed with you, the list generated says teams clearly worse than the Bulls over the last 15 years.

No way is it clear in my mind that the Rockets have been worse than the Bulls through that stretch.

It's debatable, at best.