Semi-OT: Worst run franchise in Chicago

[Hangtime84]

You do know that is at the bottom of the starting QB pay scale right? That is no worse than what Hoyer got from the 49ers. So it's "six of one, half a dozen of other."

The difference between the Bulls and the Bears is that the Bears actually have young, promising players like Amos, Meredith, White, McPhee, Treviathan, Goldman, etc all they need is health and they could get good in a hurry. The Bulls "best" young players are probably NBDL quality at this point.

Bears are not good at the moment but at least they are moving in that direction, the Bulls are the other hand have no idea what the hell they are doing. The Bulls are, without question, the worst run franchise in Chicago. Anybody arguing for the Bears haven't being paying attention to the Bulls. At least you can see the Bears plan, the Bulls have no plan.

What evidence is there that the Bears are improving? Because they replaced an average starting QB with an unknown career backup (I'm not down on Glennon but it's probably 50/50 at best that he's an upgrade from Cutler). Just like the current Bulls management, the current Bears management has made the team worse over the last couple years.

The Bulls have a clear plan. Most fans just (somewhat wisely) don't like the plan.

Couldn't disagree more. Bulls FO clearly have no idea what they are doing. Its not just fans on this form saying so.

It's a what have you done for me lately is what fans are. Do this same poll again towards the end of the bears season you will get another result.

[Axxo]

What evidence is there that the Bears are improving? Because they replaced an average starting QB with an unknown career backup (I'm not down on Glennon but it's probably 50/50 at best that he's an upgrade from Cutler). Just like the current Bulls management, the current Bears management has made the team worse over the last couple years.

The Bulls have a clear plan. Most fans just (somewhat wisely) don't like the plan.

Couldn't disagree more. Bulls FO clearly have no idea what they are doing. Its not just fans on this form saying so.

I'll paraphrase what the Bulls clear plan is, regardless of how much we might not like it or think it will likely fail:

Try to accumulate and develop young assets in an attempt to complement Jimmy Butler as the lead player under Fred's vision for a team that can play with pace, and some space. Move the ball around, until and unless such time as Jimmy can be traded for superior building blocks (likely this summer at the draft or never).

What about what they are doing would indicate that this isn't their plan?

It's not that complicated or novel. "Try to improve via all means available" is the Bulls plan and the plan of most teams at most times. The Bulls aren't good enough to warrant a plan as specific (and thus limiting) to get x certain player via y certain mechanism. That would be shortsighted.

The Bulls plan is warranted IMO. Too bad the FO can't spot talented players and coaches well enough for it to likely work.

Which is why I(we) have said they do not know what they are doing. Its one thing to say you are going to get young assets to try and build around them, its completely another to try and do that WITH low draft selections, NBA veterans (two of whom are former champions) and cast off pieces from trades with other teams that the Bulls got the worst end of while trying to make the playoffs most of the season only to then throw in the towel to try and get lower in the draft with just under 20 games left in the season....

They are not showing a clearly defined direction. What this shows is indecision on the approach to achieving a specific goal. They still haven't even moved toward obtaining pace and space players..and they have had a full off-season and additional opportunities to retool via trade after having time to evaluate the roster.

[HearshotKDS]

What evidence is there that the Bears are improving? Because they replaced an average starting QB with an unknown career backup (I'm not down on Glennon but it's probably 50/50 at best that he's an upgrade from Cutler). Just like the current Bulls management, the current Bears management has made the team worse over the last couple years.

The Bulls have a clear plan. Most fans just (somewhat wisely) don't like the plan.

Couldn't disagree more. Bulls FO clearly have no idea what they are doing. Its not just fans on this form saying so.

I'll paraphrase what the Bulls clear plan is, regardless of how much we might not like it or think it will likely fail:

Try to accumulate and develop young assets in an attempt to complement Jimmy Butler as the lead player under Fred's vision for a team that can play with pace, and some space. Move the ball around, until and unless such time as Jimmy can be traded for superior building blocks (likely this summer at the draft or never).

What about what they are doing would indicate that this isn't their plan?

It's not that complicated or novel. "Try to improve via all means available" is the Bulls plan and the plan of most teams at most times. The Bulls aren't good enough to warrant a plan as specific (and thus limiting) to get x certain player via y certain mechanism. That would be shortsighted.

The Bulls plan is warranted IMO. Too bad the FO can't spot talented players and coaches well enough for it to likely work.

Bringing in Wade and Rondo doesn't fit with your bolded plan, and actually runs counter to it in that they are bringing in older vets who have gobbled up minutes away from the positions where they have almost all the "young assets".

[League Circles]

Couldn't disagree more. Bulls FO clearly have no idea what they are doing. Its not just fans on this form saying so.

I'll paraphrase what the Bulls clear plan is, regardless of how much we might not like it or think it will likely fail:

Try to accumulate and develop young assets in an attempt to complement Jimmy Butler as the lead player under Fred's vision for a team that can play with pace, and some space. Move the ball around, until and unless such time as Jimmy can be traded for superior building blocks (likely this summer at the draft or never).

What about what they are doing would indicate that this isn't their plan?

It's not that complicated or novel. "Try to improve via all means available" is the Bulls plan and the plan of most teams at most times. The Bulls aren't good enough to warrant a plan as specific (and thus limiting) to get x certain player via y certain mechanism. That would be shortsighted.

The Bulls plan is warranted IMO. Too bad the FO can't spot talented players and coaches well enough for it to likely work.

Which is why I(we) have said they do not know what they are doing. Its one thing to say you are going to get young assets to try and build around them, its completely another to try and do that WITH low draft selections, NBA veterans (two of whom are former champions) and cast off pieces from trades with other teams that the Bulls got the worst end of while trying to make the playoffs most of the season only to then throw in the towel to try and get lower in the draft with just under 20 games left in the season....

They are not showing a clearly defined direction. What this shows is indecision on the approach to achieving a specific goal. They still haven't even moved toward obtaining pace and space players..and they have had a full off-season and additional opportunities to retool via trade after having time to evaluate the roster.

They wanted to give it a shot with the vets. It didn't work, so now they're proceeding down the road of asset development and accumulation. It probably won't work well because they can't evaluate talent well, but just because they had contingency plans and course corrected doesn't mean they didn't or don't have a plan. Only morons have a plan and then see it out regardless of ongoing feedback.

[RebuildaBulls]

Bulls win this easy. White Sox are even looking up and they are under Reinsdorf too

[Shootdabull]

I am surprised the bears are not getting more love. Last three seasons 3-13; 6-10 & 5-11. We just signed a back up QB with a career rating of 85 compared to cutler at 86. Our best receiver just signed with the eagles. What more do they have to do?

[iqureshi]

THe bears have a vision at least. Gm/Coach trying to recreate the denver broncos. Good Running game, good LBs. Just need to build secondary. Some scouts have their interior O linemen G-G as the best in the NFL. They were the 3rd worst team but they were also on their 4th 5th string Qb. Bottom line is there is a plan in place. Their Defense isn't the worst in the NFL that it was 3 years ago.

THe Bulls, I don't see a plan. At best they are a poor man's Rockets/Pacers. Is that the model they are going for? Fine jimmy is injured, but even when the season started they had the worst big man combo in the NBA. no bench.

Sox at least entered a partial rebuild. I don't think they went far enough with the tear down, but they still can. THey have a top farm system, if they pay out or not, at least there is a plan.

Blackhawks got lucky with 2 studs, and building around them.

Cubs were flawless in their execution. Possibly one of the greatest builds in professional sports. Luck definitely played a large part, no computer model could've predicted the success they achieved.

[babblin-on]

The Bears haven't done anything to be called well run just yet, but I'll rank them as better than the Bulls at present because at least the McCaskeys showed a willingness to hold their version of GarPax and Fred(Emery and Trestman) accountable, where the Bulls seem to have given GarPax Supreme Court-esque lifetime appointments, and GarPax seem fine with their chosen coach who has failed to develop any of the team's prospects and had the team seemingly quit on him for 2 years straight.

[Am2626]

Not even close. When you look at the short term and long term, it's the Bears. They haven't won a Championship in 32 years and probably won't win one for at least the next 5 years.
They have wasted half a decade on a super mediocre QB, just replacing him with an even worse and low ceiling one. They spent the past 2 years letting players who helped them win (Forte, Bennett, Marshall, Jeffrey) go, with zero legit replacement in sight.

Bulls are not far behind, but at least the 6 championships give a little bit of credit. And if they have a superstar they can trade for the foundation of a new team if they want to.

Those 6 championships are only because of Jordan. Any ownership group and or front office that gets to inherit the Greatest player of all time is going to win championships. There is nothing to suggest that this organization can build a winning culture. They have no credibility which means they have no chance to get a superstar unless one is drafted. The FO track record when it comes trades is a complete joke. Look at the last trade they made.

[Proven_Winner]

What evidence is there that the Bears are improving? Because they replaced an average starting QB with an unknown career backup (I'm not down on Glennon but it's probably 50/50 at best that he's an upgrade from Cutler). Just like the current Bulls management, the current Bears management has made the team worse over the last couple years.

The Bulls have a clear plan. Most fans just (somewhat wisely) don't like the plan.

Couldn't disagree more. Bulls FO clearly have no idea what they are doing. Its not just fans on this form saying so.

I'll paraphrase what the Bulls clear plan is, regardless of how much we might not like it or think it will likely fail:

Try to accumulate and develop young assets in an attempt to complement Jimmy Butler as the lead player under Fred's vision for a team that can play with pace, and some space. Move the ball around, until and unless such time as Jimmy can be traded for superior building blocks (likely this summer at the draft or never).

What about what they are doing would indicate that this isn't their plan?

It's not that complicated or novel. "Try to improve via all means available" is the Bulls plan and the plan of most teams at most times. The Bulls aren't good enough to warrant a plan as specific (and thus limiting) to get x certain player via y certain mechanism. That would be shortsighted.

The Bulls plan is warranted IMO. Too bad the FO can't spot talented players and coaches well enough for it to likely work.

I'm not saying you're completely wrong but I do want to say that if that's the plan then they've already messed up. They want to put young guys around Butler but they've given up a decent one for a so far garbage one ( McD for Payne). Then to further go against it they're pretty much burning the bridge with niko so that's another young guy. They already are starting off on a bad foot if that's the plan. Also I wouldn't even consider it a plan if they just did on the fly.

Getting wade and rondo was a plan because they actually thought it out. Putting young guys around butler seems more like a procrastinating or scramble type of thing.

[Axxo]

Couldn't disagree more. Bulls FO clearly have no idea what they are doing. Its not just fans on this form saying so.

I'll paraphrase what the Bulls clear plan is, regardless of how much we might not like it or think it will likely fail:

Try to accumulate and develop young assets in an attempt to complement Jimmy Butler as the lead player under Fred's vision for a team that can play with pace, and some space. Move the ball around, until and unless such time as Jimmy can be traded for superior building blocks (likely this summer at the draft or never).

What about what they are doing would indicate that this isn't their plan?

It's not that complicated or novel. "Try to improve via all means available" is the Bulls plan and the plan of most teams at most times. The Bulls aren't good enough to warrant a plan as specific (and thus limiting) to get x certain player via y certain mechanism. That would be shortsighted.

The Bulls plan is warranted IMO. Too bad the FO can't spot talented players and coaches well enough for it to likely work.

I'm not saying you're completely wrong but I do want to say that if that's the plan then they've already messed up. They want to put young guys around Butler but they've given up a decent one for a so far garbage one ( McD for Payne). Then to further go against it they're pretty much burning the bridge with niko so that's another young guy. They already are starting off on a bad foot if that's the plan. Also I wouldn't even consider it a plan if they just did on the fly.

Getting wade and rondo was a plan because they actually thought it out. Putting young guys around butler seems more like a procrastinating or scramble type of thing.

I have figured it out! They "plan" to be unorganized and change their minds everyday...

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

[League Circles]

I'll paraphrase what the Bulls clear plan is, regardless of how much we might not like it or think it will likely fail:

Try to accumulate and develop young assets in an attempt to complement Jimmy Butler as the lead player under Fred's vision for a team that can play with pace, and some space. Move the ball around, until and unless such time as Jimmy can be traded for superior building blocks (likely this summer at the draft or never).

What about what they are doing would indicate that this isn't their plan?

It's not that complicated or novel. "Try to improve via all means available" is the Bulls plan and the plan of most teams at most times. The Bulls aren't good enough to warrant a plan as specific (and thus limiting) to get x certain player via y certain mechanism. That would be shortsighted.

The Bulls plan is warranted IMO. Too bad the FO can't spot talented players and coaches well enough for it to likely work.

I'm not saying you're completely wrong but I do want to say that if that's the plan then they've already messed up. They want to put young guys around Butler but they've given up a decent one for a so far garbage one ( McD for Payne). Then to further go against it they're pretty much burning the bridge with niko so that's another young guy. They already are starting off on a bad foot if that's the plan. Also I wouldn't even consider it a plan if they just did on the fly.

Getting wade and rondo was a plan because they actually thought it out. Putting young guys around butler seems more like a procrastinating or scramble type of thing.

I have figured it out! They "plan" to be unorganized and change their minds everyday...

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

More or less. Not every day but continuously reevaluate and be ready to **** gears based on new information and opportunities. It's a wise disciplined approach. If they knew a decent coach or a good player when they saw one we'd have a strong team IMO.

[aramada]

Not even close. When you look at the short term and long term, it's the Bears. They haven't won a Championship in 32 years and probably won't win one for at least the next 5 years.
They have wasted half a decade on a super mediocre QB, just replacing him with an even worse and low ceiling one. They spent the past 2 years letting players who helped them win (Forte, Bennett, Marshall, Jeffrey) go, with zero legit replacement in sight.

Bulls are not far behind, but at least the 6 championships give a little bit of credit. And if they have a superstar they can trade for the foundation of a new team if they want to.

Those 6 championships are only because of Jordan. Any ownership group and or front office that gets to inherit the Greatest player of all time is going to win championships. There is nothing to suggest that this organization can build a winning culture. They have no credibility which means they have no chance to get a superstar unless one is drafted. The FO track record when it comes trades is a complete joke. Look at the last trade they made.

"Because of Jordan" - so easy to make that statement. Jordan is obviously deserving tons of credit. But how about creating an environment that helps him thrive? Pushing him to not rush his return from injury in year 2? Trading for Pippen, a guy who could have been a franchise player but instead put his ego aside to put up with Jordan's abusive personality? Getting Kukoc at a time when Euro players were an exotic thing? How about Phil, a guy coming from nowhere who made sure this locker room wasn't going to blow up and did the same again with the Lakers?

Championships teams are very fragile. Even the best of the best get tired. They won six of them, and Jordan couldn't have made it without the players, staff, and organizations behind him. Organizations win championships is kind of a stupid thing to say. But so is "we won because of X". It's a combination of things. And all of the above are elements proving that they were able to build a winning culture with and around Jordan. They were doing the same around Rose, until that big injury derailed everything. Jimmy was a rookie that year (remember how he was drafted #30?). Imagine where we'd be today with Jimmy's rise to All Star level and Rose remaining a Top 5 player in the league.

Bears under the McCaskeys don't show the same track record. They did build one of the best Championship teams ever, but weren't able to repeat or turn it into a long term contender. And since then? I have seen no sign of building a winning culture whatsoever. They haven't even produced a great QB, probably ever. That in itself is an unbelievable achievement of mediocrity.

[Flopper]

The Bears have the right idea, but haven't executed their plan well enough and have been devastated by injuries the last few years. They have nowhere near the same level of dysfunction, infighting, nepotism, and lack of accountability the Bulls have had the past 3 years. We're in Dolan territory right now, easily a top 3 dysfunctional team in the league.

[dougthonus]

It's a what have you done for me lately is what fans are. Do this same poll again towards the end of the bears season you will get another result.

It is also the emotional attachment of the people answering the poll. If you asked the same question on a die hard bears forum, I'm not sure you'd get the same response right now either.

The Bulls are where the Bears were at 3 years ago, trying to cling on to hope that clearly had no reason to exist. If the Bulls are in three years where the Bears are now (bottom 5 team in the league with no reason to hope things are going to be better any time soon), I'll be really disappointed.

[fleet]

It's a what have you done for me lately is what fans are. Do this same poll again towards the end of the bears season you will get another result.

It is also the emotional attachment of the people answering the poll. If you asked the same question on a die hard bears forum, I'm not sure you'd get the same response right now either.

The Bulls are where the Bears were at 3 years ago, trying to cling on to hope that clearly had no reason to exist. If the Bulls are in three years where the Bears are now (bottom 5 team in the league with no reason to hope things are going to be better any time soon), I'll be really disappointed.

Doug, I believe the organizational structure of the Bears is superior today, with one guy making decisions. I try to take the condition of the teams out of the evaluation, and focus on which of the 2 teams is run better, today. To me that says the Bears are run better. Though if you factor in the quality of decisionmaking over the last couple of years since Pace has started, even though I don't like Pace's moves all that much, I think it is even more one sided Bears.

Bulls ownership, while it has done well on the bottom line, it is also responsible for putting Jerry in charge, and Jerry is directly responsible for the organizational dysfunction the Bulls are currently under at the top. While the Bears are smooth going, stepping out of the way instead of meddling anymore

[dougthonus]

Doug, I believe the organizational structure of the Bears is superior today, with one guy making decisions. I try to take the condition of the teams out of the evaluation, and focus on which of the 2 teams is run better, today. To me that says the Bears are run better. Though if you factor in the quality of decisionmaking over the last couple of years since Pace has started, even though I don't like Pace's moves all that much, I think it is even more one sided Bears.

Bulls ownership, while it has done well on the bottom line, it is also responsible for putting Jerry in charge, and Jerry is directly responsible for the organizational dysfunction the Bulls are currently under at the top. While the Bears are smooth going, stepping out of the way instead of meddling anymore

Why would you take out of consideration the "condition of the teams"? That would be the absolute most important evidence to support your claim one way or the other. The Bears were clinging to false hope in the Cutler era for too long, and then eventually just took a nose dive for three straight years.

You seem to be setting up your criteria to be "i am upset about the Bulls, so whatever is not like the Bulls must be better" and then purposefully ignoring the primary source of evidence of whether this is true or not.

This isn't to say a bad team couldn't be better run than a good team. However, you'd see the stockpiling of picks, good young players at key positions, feel comfortable in the coaching, etc...

Pace has only been there two seasons so far, but it's been a falling knife in his tenure. It certainly doesn't seem like he hit the right note with John Fox as his head coach to me, and the roster doesn't seem better positioned than when he arrived. He has generated cap room, which all in all, typically seems even less valuable in the NFL than in the NBA.

We'll see what he does, but so far he's driven the team straight into the ground, and maybe that's part of his rebuilding plan as he inherited an old team that wasn't going to win, but I haven't seen any reason to believe he can lift up yet either and driving it into the ground and generating cap room is a step that anyone on this forum could by just not doing anything.

[SpinninHouse]

It's a what have you done for me lately is what fans are. Do this same poll again towards the end of the bears season you will get another result.

It is also the emotional attachment of the people answering the poll. If you asked the same question on a die hard bears forum, I'm not sure you'd get the same response right now either.

The Bulls are where the Bears were at 3 years ago, trying to cling on to hope that clearly had no reason to exist. If the Bulls are in three years where the Bears are now (bottom 5 team in the league with no reason to hope things are going to be better any time soon), I'll be really disappointed.

We had this debate on CCS's Bears forum and most said the Bulls were the most poorly run team in Chicago.


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[NZB2323]

The Bears fired their GM in 2015 and replaced him with a better GM. Let me know when the Bulls do that.

Ryan Pace has done a good job in both New Orleans(Superbowl) and Chicago. I don't know what people were expecting when Pace took over the team in 2015, with a depleted defense and Jay Cutler at QB. USA Today projected the Bears to win 3 games in the first season Pace took over.

[dougthonus]

The Bears fired their GM in 2015 and replaced him with a better GM. Let me know when the Bulls do that.

Ryan Pace has done a good job in both New Orleans(Superbowl) and Chicago. I don't know what people were expecting when Pace took over the team in 2015, with a depleted defense and Jay Cutler at QB. USA Today projected the Bears to win 3 games in the first season Pace took over.

What do you think Pace needs to achieve this year in order to still be viewed as a success? How many years do you think he should have to rebuild from the ground up?

How about Forman and Paxson? If you combine their era, Paxson had one down year when he took the job then built up a promising team that peaked at a 2nd round playoff appearance but was viewed as a dark horse contender. He then had one down season and built up another strong team that peaked at ECF and was viewed as a legit contender.

You can argue the Bulls should have given up on their group earlier rather than trying to hang on, but this is the first season where a direction shift was really apparent (removing Rose/Noah).

So far, Paxson/Forman have been able to rebuild twice with fair amounts of success and few down years in between.

Pace has had two full seasons to recover so far, and his team finished 3-13. How many wins does he need at the end of his 3rd full season for you to feel happy that he's really on the right track? 6? 8? 10?

The Bulls are entering the 2nd year of the Post Rose era, if you gave them the same benefit of the doubt you give Pace, then they should be allowed a 15 win season this year coming up plus whatever win equivalent you give Pace for the end of this year in order to have time to rebuild.