The Lottery Thread - EDIT 03/26

[Bulls_Fan]

I don't think any team should lose are purpose like throwing a game but I'm fully onboard with after tonight if they lose to go the youth movement.

I'm not a draft guru but I've been following this draft closely and I see getting a very good player at 10-12. The Bulls being 12th right as it stands still has time to cement that position.

Post all-star break/trade deadline they should have released Rondo or Mirotic or buried them at the end of the bench. Play players who still have time left on their contract and can get a bunch of PT where we can evaluate where we stand w/ them for the 2017 season.

Bulls threw 25 games away playing Rondo instead of continuing to play Grant and seeing what we have.

[NADROJ]

This is sort of like saying, "Wouldn't a smart criminal murder his neighbor once she threatened to turn him into the police?" Tanking is not purely an issue of smarts. Some in the NBA have strong moral objections to it. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bulls count themselves among those people. If that's the case, they won't be winning because they're stupid they'll be winning because their values and morals differ from yours.

No, a smart criminal wouldn't get caught especially, by of all people, the person that lives next door him/her. That's what would make them a smart criminal.

That's all I'm asking this FO to do; be smart. Also, you want to talk about values and morals in relation to this team? Hahaha, in my mind that starts and ends with their public crusade against Thibs and Rose. Have you're opinions about those two has coach and player, but the Bulls went out of their way to treat them like ****.

The point remains that, for the Bulls, this may be about principles. I highly doubt that, as you framed it, this is a question of intellect. I'm pretty sure that even the worst front office executives realize that losing games lead to higher draft picks and higher draft picks are better than lower ones. So this isn't going to be an issue of whether the Bulls are "smart" enough to tank.

But, wouldn't you have to question their intellect or competency as an FO if they were making the intentional decision to choose principles over what even, "the worst front office executives," realize is a smart basketball decision?

We're sort of headed down a rabbit hole that leads to a pointless, circular discussion. So, perhaps we can just agree to disagree.

[JeremyB0001]

No, a smart criminal wouldn't get caught especially, by of all people, the person that lives next door him/her. That's what would make them a smart criminal.

That's all I'm asking this FO to do; be smart. Also, you want to talk about values and morals in relation to this team? Hahaha, in my mind that starts and ends with their public crusade against Thibs and Rose. Have you're opinions about those two has coach and player, but the Bulls went out of their way to treat them like ****.

The point remains that, for the Bulls, this may be about principles. I highly doubt that, as you framed it, this is a question of intellect. I'm pretty sure that even the worst front office executives realize that losing games lead to higher draft picks and higher draft picks are better than lower ones. So this isn't going to be an issue of whether the Bulls are "smart" enough to tank.

But, wouldn't you have to question their intellect or competency as an FO if they were making the intentional decision to choose principles over what even, "the worst front office executives," realize is a smart basketball decision?

We're sort of headed down a rabbit hole that leads to a pointless, circular discussion. So, perhaps we can just agree to disagree.

It sounds like you're saying people who choose their principles over what's best for their self-interest are stupid. I don't agree with that. For instance, I will vote for tax reforms that I think are just over ones that will minimize my tax hit. I don't think that makes me stupid, I think it makes me principled.

[R3AL1TY]

Fred most likely will still mess with the rotation to help the team tank the rest of the way. They probably won't sit Jimmy until another team clinches the 8th spot with couple games left.

This situation the Bulls are in wouldn't look so muddy if they decided to tank earlier before the season started, communicated this path to the team earlier, traded Taj earlier, and avoided signing Wade and Rondo. They're trying to be a playoff team and tank at the same time now.

[rowseyna]

Fred most likely will still mess with the rotation to help the team tank the rest of the way. They probably won't sit Jimmy until another team clinches the 8th spot with couple games left.

This situation the Bulls are in wouldn't look so muddy if they decided to tank earlier before the season started, communicated this path to the team earlier, traded Taj earlier, and avoided signing Wade and Rondo. They're trying to be a playoff team and tank at the same time now.

I don't think Fred's going to try to tank. And really, I don't think the situation looks all that muddy. They're just trying to get to the playoffs.

[NADROJ]

The point remains that, for the Bulls, this may be about principles. I highly doubt that, as you framed it, this is a question of intellect. I'm pretty sure that even the worst front office executives realize that losing games lead to higher draft picks and higher draft picks are better than lower ones. So this isn't going to be an issue of whether the Bulls are "smart" enough to tank.

But, wouldn't you have to question their intellect or competency as an FO if they were making the intentional decision to choose principles over what even, "the worst front office executives," realize is a smart basketball decision?

We're sort of headed down a rabbit hole that leads to a pointless, circular discussion. So, perhaps we can just agree to disagree.

It sounds like you're saying people who choose their principles over what's best for their self-interest are stupid. I don't agree with that. For instance, I will vote for tax reforms that I think are just over ones that will minimize my tax hit. I don't think that makes me stupid, I think it makes me principled.

Had a feeling you might take this outside the realm of basketball.

Sorry everybody, first post in this thread was great and I didn't mean lead it off course.

[R3AL1TY]

Fred most likely will still mess with the rotation to help the team tank the rest of the way. They probably won't sit Jimmy until another team clinches the 8th spot with couple games left.

This situation the Bulls are in wouldn't look so muddy if they decided to tank earlier before the season started, communicated this path to the team earlier, traded Taj earlier, and avoided signing Wade and Rondo. They're trying to be a playoff team and tank at the same time now.

I don't think Fred's going to try to tank. And really, I don't think the situation looks all that muddy. They're just trying to get to the playoffs.

The way he has been giving the younger guys too many minutes, or sitting guys after they had good games, it seems to point that way. Not even the more seasoned veterans like Morrow and Canaan are getting any minutes. The only guy from the bench that seems to get consistent minutes no matter what for a while now is Rondo. In all, since the trade, what we've been seeing is what alternative young guys can play alongside Jimmy and Wade, which only lead to more losses and Rondo speaking up about not liking the path management wants to go when he thought he was here to help the team be a contender.

[TimRobbins]

I don't think we can do better than #14. Just about everybody other than us is tanking. Talking about #8 is pure fantasy at this point.

[johnnyvann840]

We likely won't move much with 9 games left. I tried to tell people this with 16 games to go and everybody getting giddy about a "mini-tank". Since then we have not moved in draft position. We've gained one half game to the tank side.

This is just how it goes. Look, to jump two teams, either way, that are more than 1.5 or 2.5 games up or down of us, is asking a HELL of a lot.

Look at it like this. You are asking to hit a THREE GAME PARLAY (6/1 odds) 3 times out of 9 (to pass two teams 2.5 games ahead or behind us). the Bulls have to lose and the other two teams have to win, or vice versa. The odds of that happening are astronomical. And that is just to pick up ONE OR TWO GAMES. lol. Then, you still have to hope the tiebreakers go your way which can mean a whole other game. People are still talking about moving past teams 3.5 games ahead of us. All the teams around us are basically just like us... gonna wind up with 36-40 wins (the worst result you can have).... and on any given night some of them win and some lose so things rarely change. Too many teams involved.

Bulls are looking at the 12th through 14th pick and probably missing the playoffs. They might rally and make the playoffs, but that only weakens our draft position. It would really take something extraordinary for us to get better than the 12th pick at this point.

[johnnyvann840]

If the season ended now we would be picking 14th.

[Ralphb07]

We likely won't move much with 9 games left. I tried to tell people this with 16 games to go and everybody getting giddy about a "mini-tank". Since then we have not moved in draft position. We've gained one half game to the tank side.

This is just how it goes. Look, to jump two teams, either way, that are more than 1.5 or 2.5 games up or down of us, is asking a HELL of a lot.

Look at it like this. You are asking to hit a THREE GAME PARLAY (6/1 odds) 3 times out of 9 (to pass two teams 2.5 games ahead or behind us). the Bulls have to lose and the other two teams have to win, or vice versa. The odds of that happening are astronomical. And that is just to pick up ONE OR TWO GAMES. lol. Then, you still have to hope the tiebreakers go your way which can mean a whole other game. People are still talking about moving past teams 3.5 games ahead of us. All the teams around us are basically just like us... gonna wind up with 36-40 wins (the worst result you can have).... and on any given night some of them win and some lose so things rarely change. Too many teams involved.

Bulls are looking at the 12th through 14th pick and probably missing the playoffs. They might rally and make the playoffs, but that only weakens our draft position. It would really take something extraordinary for us to get better than the 12th pick at this point.

It's hard because not all teams have played equal games. I always look at the loss column and ignore the win column. 1 game separates the Bulls from the 10th pick. I could be wrong but If tied don't they do a coin flip to determine lottery position? The next two games tell a lot imo. If drop both I think they can still do better than 12th.

[johnnyvann840]

We likely won't move much with 9 games left. I tried to tell people this with 16 games to go and everybody getting giddy about a "mini-tank". Since then we have not moved in draft position. We've gained one half game to the tank side.

This is just how it goes. Look, to jump two teams, either way, that are more than 1.5 or 2.5 games up or down of us, is asking a HELL of a lot.

Look at it like this. You are asking to hit a THREE GAME PARLAY (6/1 odds) 3 times out of 9 (to pass two teams 2.5 games ahead or behind us). the Bulls have to lose and the other two teams have to win, or vice versa. The odds of that happening are astronomical. And that is just to pick up ONE OR TWO GAMES. lol. Then, you still have to hope the tiebreakers go your way which can mean a whole other game. People are still talking about moving past teams 3.5 games ahead of us. All the teams around us are basically just like us... gonna wind up with 36-40 wins (the worst result you can have).... and on any given night some of them win and some lose so things rarely change. Too many teams involved.

Bulls are looking at the 12th through 14th pick and probably missing the playoffs. They might rally and make the playoffs, but that only weakens our draft position. It would really take something extraordinary for us to get better than the 12th pick at this point.

It's hard because not all teams have played equal games. I always look at the loss column and ignore the win column. 1 game separates the Bulls from the 10th pick. I could be wrong but If tied don't they do a coin flip to determine lottery position? The next two games tell a lot imo. If drop both I think they can still do better than 12th.

Yes, I agree about the loss column when you are looking at making the playoffs or getting a higher seed. But it's the opposite when you are looking to fall and improve your draft lot. Wins column becomes more important. Bottom line is that there are still four teams in between the Bulls and the 10th pick. The 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th slots. We look at the loss column with "games in hand" only when trying to win because you still have a chance to win the "game in hand". Bulls need to jump Detroit, Portland, Charlotte and Dallas to pick 10th. It's just not as straightforward as being 1 loss/or win out of that spot. If there were only one team in front of us it would be different.

[fleet]

The prism through which I observe the NBA world at times has to do with the current status of the New York Knicks. They have the #5 position in the lottery, therefore they may have a brighter future than the beloved Chicago Bulls. I think it sucks.

[johnnyvann840]

The prism through which I observe the NBA world at times has to do with the current status of the New York Knicks. They have the #5 position in the lottery, therefore they may have a brighter future than the beloved Chicago Bulls. I think it sucks.

Too bad Isiah Thomas is not still running things over there, we could have traded Robin Lopez and Cam Payne for that pick.

[Chi town]

If the Celts get the #1 seed I don't mind making the playoffs. I think we make for a worthy opponent especially w our spacing now. Playoff Wade being out does hurt is overall but helps our ball movement.

If we make the playoffs... no big deal. Just draft OG as he will be there.


If we do tank and get 11-12 then draft bridges or Frank

[Chi town]

BTW... I don't see us getting past the Heat for the 8th seed. I think teams will be resting their guys and they walk into the 8th seed.

Hope Bulls get 11. Then they get Bridges or Frank.

[Mk0]

You guys need to hook Dan up with some more And1s. That is some work on the OP

[DroseReturnChi]

We likely won't move much with 9 games left. I tried to tell people this with 16 games to go and everybody getting giddy about a "mini-tank". Since then we have not moved in draft position. We've gained one half game to the tank side.

This is just how it goes. Look, to jump two teams, either way, that are more than 1.5 or 2.5 games up or down of us, is asking a HELL of a lot.

Look at it like this. You are asking to hit a THREE GAME PARLAY (6/1 odds) 3 times out of 9 (to pass two teams 2.5 games ahead or behind us). the Bulls have to lose and the other two teams have to win, or vice versa. The odds of that happening are astronomical. And that is just to pick up ONE OR TWO GAMES. lol. Then, you still have to hope the tiebreakers go your way which can mean a whole other game. People are still talking about moving past teams 3.5 games ahead of us. All the teams around us are basically just like us... gonna wind up with 36-40 wins (the worst result you can have).... and on any given night some of them win and some lose so things rarely change. Too many teams involved.

Bulls are looking at the 12th through 14th pick and probably missing the playoffs. They might rally and make the playoffs, but that only weakens our draft position. It would really take something extraordinary for us to get better than the 12th pick at this point.

It's hard because not all teams have played equal games. I always look at the loss column and ignore the win column. 1 game separates the Bulls from the 10th pick. I could be wrong but If tied don't they do a coin flip to determine lottery position? The next two games tell a lot imo. If drop both I think they can still do better than 12th.

Yes, I agree about the loss column when you are looking at making the playoffs or getting a higher seed. But it's the opposite when you are looking to fall and improve your draft lot. Wins column becomes more important. Bottom line is that there are still four teams in between the Bulls and the 10th pick. The 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th slots. We look at the loss column with "games in hand" only when trying to win because you still have a chance to win the "game in hand". Bulls need to jump Detroit, Portland, Charlotte and Dallas to pick 10th. It's just not as straightforward as being 1 loss/or win out of that spot. If there were only one team in front of us it would be different.

I think if we shut down Butler rn, its going to be easy to get 10th seed. I wish we were the 8th seed and nabbed DSJ who has all-star potential. Only 7 more loss would have been top 5 pick. The Bulls were that close to a chance at perennial all-star and they blew it.
At this point, Bulls need another 1.7% miracle on 2017 draft day. Acquiring another low end lottery pick for Gibson and Doug would have been great.

[dice]

This is sort of like saying, "Wouldn't a smart criminal murder his neighbor once she threatened to turn him into the police?" Tanking is not purely an issue of smarts. Some in the NBA have strong moral objections to it. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bulls count themselves among those people. If that's the case, they won't be winning because they're stupid they'll be winning because their values and morals differ from yours.

No, a smart criminal wouldn't get caught especially, by of all people, the person that lives next door him/her. That's what would make them a smart criminal.

That's all I'm asking this FO to do; be smart. Also, you want to talk about values and morals in relation to this team? Hahaha, in my mind that starts and ends with their public crusade against Thibs and Rose. Have you're opinions about those two has coach and player, but the Bulls went out of their way to treat them like ****.

1) the FO has no say in shutting down jimmy. they can only suggest it. and he would decline. so that's the end of that
2) say what you want about the thibs situation, where there was plenty of blame to go around, but the FO (and thibs) went out of their way to ignore all of derrick's BS in the hopes that he would eventually get his **** together. he didn't and they traded him without comment

[DroseReturnChi]

The prism through which I observe the NBA world at times has to do with the current status of the New York Knicks. They have the #5 position in the lottery, therefore they may have a brighter future than the beloved Chicago Bulls. I think it sucks.

As much as anti-tankers hate to admit, Knicks are miles ahead of Bulls in terms of rebuilding. They had to go through series of humiliation and painful years, but Zenmaster is doing it all right. As long as they keep their blue chip and draft another KP level this year which is highly likely, they can afford to strike out like the Noah deal. Meanwhile, if the Bulls sign series of 3rd tier free agents and decide to keep Jimmy, the treadmill team is only going to get worse.