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Dan Z wrote:

DuckIII wrote:

kodo wrote:What a joke of a FO. They really think they won a title in 2021 and need to keep the team together like GS.
Team's biggest problems is size at PF...they get a 6' 4" PF. Next time we lose because we didn't have the size to stop G-league big men like Jock Landale, we'll at least have another 6' 4" guy on the roster.

The casual “heart and hustle” fans will gobble this up. This a signing to drum up fan interest by bringing back a much beloved team mascot type player, not a basketball move.

Was there a move you think they could've done this late in the season?

Signing literally any tall defensive minded and athletic power forward available to take a look. Like this is about as dumb a move from a basketball and team building perspective that you could realistically make for a signing like this.

We know what he can do and we know we already have all that stuff. It’s mind boggling.

Nobody wanted Green. Even teams who have an opening for a guy like him. He’s either injured or, more likely, teams really don’t value super short forwards with zero offensive skills. I love the guy but this board overrates him badly on merit alone due to bursts of excitement, not real quality. And he has no upside. And on our roster in particular he is still blatantly redundant even with Pat injured.

It’s just so funny to me that these boneheads did this. Such an “of course they did” moment. God these guys suck. Even minor signings can tell you how bad your executives are.

aside from having someone who can bring the ball up the floor and someone who can protect the rim (typically called PG and C), positions don't make a goddamn bit of difference. "tweener" is an antiquated term that never made sense beyond neatly fitting someone into a pointless idea of what a player playing a certain position was supposed to do. the matchup disadvantage at one end of the floor was always fixated on, ignoring the matchup ADVANTAGE created at the other end by that very same disparity in size or difference in playing style

either you can compete w/ the guy in front of you or you can't. javonte green has shown that he can play in this league, regularly playing effective defense at 6'4" despite being regularly matched up with taller opponents. he can contest and even block the shots of taller players. he's never had an issue rebounding either. his limited offensive ability is a much bigger issue, though he's hardly incompetent at that end

nobody's gonna bring in a traditional PF to post up javonte green in the backup role that he's well suited to. assuming they even have such a player on the roster. and that's a big assumption these days. so call him a jumbo guard, a small forward, a power forward, a forward forward...who cares? if he can't guard the guy he's assigned to guard, get him off the floor!

DuckIII wrote:

Dan Z wrote:

DuckIII wrote:
The casual “heart and hustle” fans will gobble this up. This a signing to drum up fan interest by bringing back a much beloved team mascot type player, not a basketball move.

Was there a move you think they could've done this late in the season?

Signing literally any tall defensive minded and athletic power forward available to take a look. Like this is about as dumb a move from a basketball and team building perspective that you could realistically make for a signing like this.

We know what he can do and we know we already have all that stuff. It’s mind boggling.

Nobody wanted Green. Even teams who have an opening for a guy like him. He’s either injured or, more likely, teams really don’t value super short forwards with zero offensive skills. I love the guy but this board overrates him badly on merit alone due to bursts of excitement, not real quality. And he has no upside. And on our roster in particular he is still blatantly redundant even with Pat injured.

It’s just so funny to me that these boneheads did this. Such an “of course they did” moment. God these guys suck. Even minor signings can tell you how bad your executives are.

I don't have a problem with the signing because it's minor, but agree with you that it doesn't do anything. I've often thought that AK doesn't think about the future much when he makes decisions, which is a bad quality to have in an front office.

Are we able to keep him for rest of season/playoffs? We certainly don't need Taylor.

Said it before. I think the improved play on both ends of Ayo, the growth of Coby, Bitim looking like an NBA player gives the Bulls the security to be able to trade Caruso, hopefully for a tall, real PF. If you bring back Javonte as a GUARD he makes up for the defense and hustle you lose from AC and he should be even more effective if he's playing against guards his own size instead of PF's 5 inches taller.

ChettheJet wrote:Said it before. I think the improved play on both ends of Ayo, the growth of Coby, Bitim looking like an NBA player gives the Bulls the security to be able to trade Caruso, hopefully for a tall, real PF. If you bring back Javonte as a GUARD he makes up for the defense and hustle you lose from AC and he should be even more effective if he's playing against guards his own size instead of PF's 5 inches taller.

I would certainly love to bring back Javonte (esp on a min deal). I agree that if we have Javante and a "healthy" Ball next season, trading Caruso for a better PF like Rui, or better yet, a C makes sense (I'm fantasizing again about getting a Hartenstein via S&T).

ChettheJet wrote:Said it before. I think the improved play on both ends of Ayo, the growth of Coby, Bitim looking like an NBA player gives the Bulls the security to be able to trade Caruso, hopefully for a tall, real PF. If you bring back Javonte as a GUARD he makes up for the defense and hustle you lose from AC and he should be even more effective if he's playing against guards his own size instead of PF's 5 inches taller.

Great post. I'm a little concerned about his health given that he played a valuable role for us for years and then no one would touch him. But if he's healthy I'd be totally down with bringing Javonte back to play a role that makes sense (i.e., wing defensive specialist and spark plug and nothing more).

But I am completely against this signing now or any future signing that in any way involves him playing a role other than described. We need to diversify this roster. Because of how our FO/Coach views him, he inhibits diversification.

Its only one game, but look at last night (which I only box score watched). Was Bitim injured? Maybe he was so someone can fill me in. But if he wasn't, why in the hell are we playing the totally known, never changes his game at all, Javonte Green 20 minutes while Bitim gets 2 minutes?

Sign Javonte, play him out of position, and play him over the guys we should be developing and evaluating instead. Rinse and repeat.

So what's the deal with Javonte's situation? Is there any scenario where we'll be able to keep him for the playoffs? If not, I'm not sure why Billy is playing him over Bitim now. We should be getting the guys who are available to us ready for the playoffs.

HomoSapien wrote:So what's the deal with Javonte's situation? Is there any scenario where we'll be able to keep him for the playoffs? If not, I'm not sure why Billy is playing him over Bitim now. We should be getting the guys who are available to us ready for the playoffs.

I would assume he’s available but it’s a good question. As much as I hate our FO and am convinced they border on being as bad as you can possibly be, surely even they are not so stupid as to sign and play Green when he can’t be in the play-in. Right?

DuckIII wrote:

HomoSapien wrote:So what's the deal with Javonte's situation? Is there any scenario where we'll be able to keep him for the playoffs? If not, I'm not sure why Billy is playing him over Bitim now. We should be getting the guys who are available to us ready for the playoffs.

I would assume he’s available but it’s a good question. As much as I hate our FO and am convinced they border on being as bad as you can possibly be, surely even they are not so stupid as to sign and play Green when he can’t be in the play-in. Right?

As of right now, we have him signed through the hardship exception. Once Julian Phillips returns, we can't keep Green unless we were to sign him to a standard contract. That would require us to waive someone, which I presume would be Taylor and I think they'd be okay doing.

The deadline for playoff eligibility of a waived player was March 1st, but I'm not sure what the deadline (if there is one at all) for guys who weren't signed at all.

DuckIII wrote:]
Signing literally any tall defensive minded and athletic power forward available to take a look. Like this is about as dumb a move from a basketball and team building perspective that you could realistically make for a signing like this.

We know what he can do and we know we already have all that stuff. It’s mind boggling.

Nobody wanted Green. Even teams who have an opening for a guy like him. He’s either injured or, more likely, teams really don’t value super short forwards with zero offensive skills. I love the guy but this board overrates him badly on merit alone due to bursts of excitement, not real quality. And he has no upside. And on our roster in particular he is still blatantly redundant even with Pat injured.

It’s just so funny to me that these boneheads did this. Such an “of course they did” moment. God these guys suck. Even minor signings can tell you how bad your executives are.

I think this only makes sense in the scenario where you don't care at all about what happens the rest of this season and think even a .0001% chance of getting a more useful player is more valuable than this season.

These guys don't think that's true. They clearly care about what happens this season. If you wanted to behave in that above way, then this isn't the move to criticize, it's everything that came before this.

Green's probably the 8th best healthy body on the roster right now. He may not add a new skillset to the team, but who would really do that? He adds a playable 8th man, and if someone ahead of him gets hurt, a playable 7th man. That's pretty important if you want to win games this year.

HomoSapien wrote:The deadline for playoff eligibility of a waived player was March 1st, but I'm not sure what the deadline (if there is one at all) for guys who weren't signed at all.

Pretty sure there is no deadline for Green because he was not signed at all.

dougthonus wrote:

DuckIII wrote:]
Signing literally any tall defensive minded and athletic power forward available to take a look. Like this is about as dumb a move from a basketball and team building perspective that you could realistically make for a signing like this.

We know what he can do and we know we already have all that stuff. It’s mind boggling.

Nobody wanted Green. Even teams who have an opening for a guy like him. He’s either injured or, more likely, teams really don’t value super short forwards with zero offensive skills. I love the guy but this board overrates him badly on merit alone due to bursts of excitement, not real quality. And he has no upside. And on our roster in particular he is still blatantly redundant even with Pat injured.

It’s just so funny to me that these boneheads did this. Such an “of course they did” moment. God these guys suck. Even minor signings can tell you how bad your executives are.

I think this only makes sense in the scenario where you don't care at all about what happens the rest of this season and think even a .0001% chance of getting a more useful player is more valuable than this season.

That’s exactly what I think. And moreover I’m right. Everyone dealing in reality knows this is not a playoff team and has no chance to do anything meaningful in the postseason with or without Green. Sign a player who fits the profile you actually need instead.

Probably won’t work but there is at least a potential long term benefit. Or, and here’s a crazy one, with our roster maybe a tall guy off the scrap heap helps more even immediately than the short guy off the scrap heap.

This signing is representative of the universe of small minded, CYA, short term thinking that has destroyed this franchise and will continue destroying it.

DuckIII wrote:That’s exactly what I think. And moreover I’m right. Everyone dealing in reality knows this is not a playoff team and has no chance to do anything meaningful in the postseason with or without Green. Sign a player who fits the profile you actually need instead.

Probably won’t work but there is at least a potential long term benefit. Or, and here’s a crazy one, with our roster maybe a tall guy off the scrap heap helps more even immediately than the short guy off the scrap heap.

This signing is representative of the universe of small minded, CYA, short term thinking that has destroyed this franchise and will continue destroying it.

I agree with your assertion more or less, except that I know they're not on that path.

Of the things they've done to not be on that path, bringing in a guy who can play legit rotation minutes on this type of contract is pretty non-offensive to me.

dougthonus wrote:

DuckIII wrote:That’s exactly what I think. And moreover I’m right. Everyone dealing in reality knows this is not a playoff team and has no chance to do anything meaningful in the postseason with or without Green. Sign a player who fits the profile you actually need instead.

Probably won’t work but there is at least a potential long term benefit. Or, and here’s a crazy one, with our roster maybe a tall guy off the scrap heap helps more even immediately than the short guy off the scrap heap.

This signing is representative of the universe of small minded, CYA, short term thinking that has destroyed this franchise and will continue destroying it.

I agree with your assertion more or less, except that I know they're not on that path.

Of the things they've done to not be on that path, bringing in a guy who can play legit rotation minutes on this type of contract is pretty non-offensive to me.

It’s not a question of degree in isolation. It’s that it represents everything about them that is bad. That’s the point.

As I said early in this thread, a move does not have to be significant to illustrate incompetence. It’s the context that matters. It’s like the Dalen Terry draft. You see something you like in a guy, ignore conventional wisdom, reach for him and it doesn’t work out. Happens all the time and no big deal to me in isolation.

But put into context, Dalen Terry: (a) was a reach; (b) to add a guy who was redundant and added nothing to the current roster at the time; (c) when the team was idiotically in “win now” mode; (d) over higher ranked prospects who perfectly fit real and glaring “win now” holes in the roster; (e) despite Terry very obviously having no special or unique physical or skill based upside.

It’s not the swing and the miss that I condemn. That **** happens. It’s the myopic stupidity of the strategy and mindset it illustrates.

DuckIII wrote:It’s not a question of degree in isolation. It’s that it represents everything about them that is bad. That’s the point.

I don't think it really does.

The odds of finding a player that will help this year or in the future more than Green is effectively 0. Green WILL help them now.

That's a sensible move for anyone to make. It isn't representative of anything more than bringing in maybe the only guy available that could make a difference for them right away.

As I said early in this thread, a move does not have to be significant to illustrate incompetence. It’s the context that matters. It’s like the Dalen Terry draft. You see something you like in a guy, ignore conventional wisdom, reach for him and it doesn’t work out. Happens all the time and no big deal to me in isolation.

The context of this move is that it helps the team now. Green will play minutes at a higher level than other people and will also not take away meaningful development time of other prospects. I think that's fine.

But put into context, Dalen Terry: (a) was a reach; (b) to add a guy who was redundant and added nothing to the current roster at the time; (c) when the team was idiotically in “win now” mode; (d) over higher ranked prospects who perfectly fit real and glaring “win now” holes in the roster; (e) despite Terry very obviously having no special or unique physical or skill based upside.

I agree that all those things are stupid, but the context of those is vastly different.

It’s not the swing and the miss that I condemn. That **** happens. It’s the myopic stupidity of the strategy and mindset it illustrates.

I agree this sums them up on the whole, but I don't think it is myopically stupid to upgrade your roster today with a guy on a hardship contract that will make a difference over a few games. I think lots of things they've done are myopically stupid (which I'm sure you know, as I was leading the bandwagon pretty early on that). I just don't look at this one that way.

The fact you are this riled up over how they use a hardship extension (especially on a guy who then immediately helped win a game) says to me that you're just fed up with their whole process, which I get, because so am I and I would guess so are most die hard Bulls fans. This move in isolation isn't representative to me of any worse pattern though. I don't think there was a better move to be made.

Anyway, probably not significant enough of a thing to be worthy of a greater debate. I holistically agree with all your points and frustrations even if I like this extremely minor transaction.

Signing Javonte does not help this team now because all there is now is the postseason, and his impact whatever it is will fall dramatically short of elevating this team to being able to win a series against any one.

DuckIII wrote:Signing Javonte does not help this team now because all there is now is the postseason, and his impact whatever it is will fall dramatically short of elevating this team to being able to win a series against any one.

I think it's quite possible that Javonte could be a difference maker in the play-in tournament or helping them get home court for the play-in tournament.

You can argue whether that matters or not, but I think it's value is not absolutely zero. It's really small no doubt, but I think the team would care about advancing further in the play-in and getting home court.

We're not giving up anything here. It's a hardship contract, it's not even a full roster spot. Even Green coming in and helping seal one victory made the move worth making already given the extraordinarily low stakes a hardship contract is from an opportunity cost perspective.

dougthonus wrote:

DuckIII wrote:Signing Javonte does not help this team now because all there is now is the postseason, and his impact whatever it is will fall dramatically short of elevating this team to being able to win a series against any one.

I think it's quite possible that Javonte could be a difference maker in the play-in tournament or helping them get home court for the play-in tournament.

You can argue whether that matters or not, but I think it's value is not absolutely zero. It's really small no doubt, but I think the team would care about advancing further in the play-in and getting home court.

We're not giving up anything here. It's a hardship contract, it's not even a full roster spot. Even Green coming in and helping seal one victory made the move worth making already given the extraordinarily low stakes a hardship contract is from an opportunity cost perspective.

Is he eligible to play in the play-in? Thought the deadline passed?

sco wrote:

dougthonus wrote:

DuckIII wrote:Signing Javonte does not help this team now because all there is now is the postseason, and his impact whatever it is will fall dramatically short of elevating this team to being able to win a series against any one.

I think it's quite possible that Javonte could be a difference maker in the play-in tournament or helping them get home court for the play-in tournament.

You can argue whether that matters or not, but I think it's value is not absolutely zero. It's really small no doubt, but I think the team would care about advancing further in the play-in and getting home court.

We're not giving up anything here. It's a hardship contract, it's not even a full roster spot. Even Green coming in and helping seal one victory made the move worth making already given the extraordinarily low stakes a hardship contract is from an opportunity cost perspective.

Is he eligible to play in the play-in? Thought the deadline passed?

The deadline only applies to guys who were waived if I'm not mistaken. Green wasn't on a roster this year.