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Jose De Leon for Logan Forsythe Trade
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:55 am
by Ranma
Re: Jose De Leon for Logan Forsythe Trade
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:02 pm
by Quake Griffin
Gotta get to a comp. These links to what I'm guessing are tweets dont work in the Real GM App
Sent from my iPhone using
RealGM mobile app
Re: Jose De Leon for Logan Forsythe Trade
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:14 pm
by Quake Griffin
Jon Morosi @jonmorosi 55m55 minutes ago
More
Postscript on Brian Dozier/#Dodgers talks: At one point, #Twins wanted Jose De Leon, Yadier Alvarez and Willie Calhoun in the deal. @MLB
20 replies 38 retweets 34 likes
Reply 20 Retweet 38
Like 34
FOH.
Re: Jose De Leon for Logan Forsythe Trade
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:07 pm
by TKainZero
Sucks to lose JDL. But forsythe is a good player!
I'm in the Tampa area, he was a fan favorite.
Re: Jose De Leon for Logan Forsythe Trade
Posted: Wed Feb 1, 2017 3:26 am
by Kilroy
I like it.
My Hot Take
Posted: Sun Feb 5, 2017 12:50 am
by Ranma
I've been meaning to post my opinion on the trade but haven't found time until now. I've mentioned before in other threads that I didn't want to give up Jose De Leon straight up for either Brian Dozer or Ian Kinsler, so you know I'm not satisfied with giving him up for just Logan Forsythe.
Having said that, I get why the Dodgers pulled the trigger. Forsythe, in a vacuum, is a welcomed addition. Friedman is familiar with and has a high opinion of him during his days in Tampa Bay. His former Rays teammates love him noting his blue-collar work ethic. He's basically a replacement for Chase Utley in the grit department. However, despite comparisons to Brian Dozier, he's more of a solid addition than All-Star, which I guess, is the point towards stabilizing the keystone position in the infield.
It was no secret that the Twins wanted 2 good pitching prospects for Dozier, so despite the reports that they asked for 3 of our top prospects, I'm sure they would have "settled" for De Leon and Brock Stewart, which is not to say that I would have made such a deal either. Speaking of Stewart, the Dodgers front office seems to value him more than De Leon right now despite the disparity in their prospect rankings. Both are low-round finds with swing-and-miss stuff who need to refine a 3rd pitch. It was Stewart and not De Leon who the Dodgers called up first to fill in when our starters were dropping like flies this past season.
There seems to be some injury concern and a certain level of disappointment with JDL from the Dodgers I guess for him not being ready to step up when we needed him to. I mentioned before that it was high time that we either use Jose or trade him as his value as a trade asset is approaching diminishing value, so I get the urgency to deal him, but I would have preferred to use him this upcoming season over trading him. I even get why the front office seems to prefer Stewart over him since Brock has higher velocity on his fastball while Jose relies more on deception in his delivery. Still, De Leon was likely to have his trade value increase by pitching more in MLB action unless injury were to strike him down, which apparently is a notable concern.
Despite my opinion and the similarities by comparison, I'm not too worried of Jose De Leon becoming the next Pedro Martinez. Obviously, that is an unlikely scenario regardless of who the prospect is, but I also mentioned before that I thought De Leon had a decent chance to be an ace for the starting rotation in Minnesota. However, I don't think he has nearly the same likelihood of that happening on Tampa Bay's staff only because of the talent already on their roster.
Personally, if we had to make a deal, I would have preferred dealing him for a top 2B prospect over the established veteran. For instance, SS/2B Jorge Mateo would have made sense in a 1-for-1 deal if that option was available. Mateo was the Yankees' top prospect before dealing Aroldis Chapman for a package that included SS Gleyber Torres. Torres usurped Mateo's position in NYY's prospect rankings and MLB Pipeline currently has De Leon (33rd) higher than Mateo (47th) while Torres is their 3rd best prospect in baseball.
According to MLB Pipeline's profile of him, Jorge Mateo has 80 speed, 60 arm strength, and 55 fielding to go along with 40 power and 50 hitting ability. Obviously, he's not quite ready with reports of him needing more plate discipline and to be less erratic in the field at SS, which makes 2B a more likely position for him. Also, he was suspended for insubordination, which is a major turn-off for Friedman & Co (and me too, to be honest).
With our closing window to win a championship during Clayton Kershaw's prime, I understand the priority to go after the safer established veteran, especially with Forsythe's team-friendly contract, but I don't see Forsythe's short-term production helping us much more than our internal options nor being worth the long-term benefit in losing out on developing a premium prospect whether it is De Leon or Mateo.
Re: Jose De Leon for Logan Forsythe Trade
Posted: Tue Feb 7, 2017 3:01 pm
by Quake Griffin
I actually agreed with a lot of what you said until you said you don't see his short term production helping us "much more" than our internal options.
I can't get down with that.
You either:
a) Think Willie can play the position.
b) Think **** will hit this year after getting past his father's health issues; or
c) Believe Austin Barnes to be an everyday 2B with a proven hit tool at this level.
To those 3 I say no way and the only way I can kinda see it is if Willie loses weight and is ready by 2018, Forsythe's last year here.
I like DeLeon and I think he's going to be better than where the FO had him. That's where I disagree with this trade but it does seem like they didn't like him as much as the rankings. From that perspective, I understand this deal.
Re: Jose De Leon for Logan Forsythe Trade
Posted: Wed Feb 8, 2017 7:47 am
by Quake Griffin
Buy Now, Pay Later
Posted: Thu Feb 9, 2017 1:13 pm
by Ranma
Quake Griffin wrote:I actually agreed with a lot of what you said until you said you don't see his short term production helping us "much more" than our internal options.
I can't get down with that.
You either:
a) Think Willie can play the position.
b) Think **** will hit this year after getting past his father's health issues; or
c) Believe Austin Barnes to be an everyday 2B with a proven hit tool at this level.
To those 3 I say no way and the only way I can kinda see it is if Willie loses weight and is ready by 2018, Forsythe's last year here.
I like DeLeon and I think he's going to be better than where the FO had him. That's where I disagree with this trade but it does seem like they didn't like him as much as the rankings. From that perspective, I understand this deal.
I hope to be proven wrong but no on A (right now) but I'm open to B and C being possibilities with C the likeliest between the two. Forsythe helps in giving us a reasonable expectation of production. Both **** and Barnes are wildcards who should easily surpass last season's respective production (not exactly a high bar) and maybe either recapture their previous form or live up to potential. I'm not saying the latter options are likely just possible.
And even if we did continue to struggle at 2B with those two and whomever else internally, we should still be able to make a deal of Forsythe for De Leon some time before the trade deadline as Jose's trade value--barring injury--should continue to rise assuming he pitches in MLB during the 1st half of the 2017 season while Forsythe will continue to provide steady production with less time left of team control. At that point, Brian Dozier or whomever else could still be in play to solve our quandary over the keystone.
Overpaying for Forsythe now makes sense if the Dodgers don't plan to use De Leon or anticipate that he will get hurt again. Obviously, the organization also prefers to have a complete team to start the season with, but that to me, is not worth paying the premium price on a deal when it should be available later on.Quake Griffin wrote:http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/meet-the-dodgers-right-handed-skyrocket/
I was going to post a tweet about this before I saw your post. This seems to confirm our suspicions of the organization having more faith in and preferring Brock Stewart over Jose De Leon. To be honest, Stewart's profile as a late bloomer in his mid-20s who already excels with 3 pitches with so little pitching experience (and wear and tear on his arm) is exciting. One could certainly argue that he's got more promise than De Leon and I'm beginning to be convinced.
Re: Jose De Leon for Logan Forsythe Trade
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:28 pm
by Quake Griffin
To me Brian Dozier is quickly becoming one of the most overrated players in baseball and I'm glad he's not on our team.
I'm not talking value for value etc. etc.
I don't want him to be a Dodger at all and I'm glad the Twins punted his value somewhere into the stratosphere.
I like Forsythe's make up much better. They're a wash defensively and I'll take the OBP bat over the historically terrible OBP bat.
I'm glad he's our guy and I don't view it as settling at all.
Re: Jose De Leon for Logan Forsythe Trade
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:57 pm
by Neddy
Quake Griffin wrote:To me Brian Dozier is quickly becoming one of the most overrated players in baseball and I'm glad he's not on our team.
I'm not talking value for value etc. etc.
I don't want him to be a Dodger at all and I'm glad the Twins punted his value somewhere into the stratosphere.
I like Forsythe's make up much better. They're a wash defensively and I'll take the OBP bat over the historically terrible OBP bat.
I'm glad he's our guy and I don't view it as settling at all.
with Utley back on the roster, I sure hope we don't platoon Logan.
Re: Buy Now, Pay Later
Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:43 pm
by Neddy
Ranma wrote:Quake Griffin wrote:I actually agreed with a lot of what you said until you said you don't see his short term production helping us "much more" than our internal options.
I can't get down with that.
You either:
a) Think Willie can play the position.
b) Think **** will hit this year after getting past his father's health issues; or
c) Believe Austin Barnes to be an everyday 2B with a proven hit tool at this level.
To those 3 I say no way and the only way I can kinda see it is if Willie loses weight and is ready by 2018, Forsythe's last year here.
I like DeLeon and I think he's going to be better than where the FO had him. That's where I disagree with this trade but it does seem like they didn't like him as much as the rankings. From that perspective, I understand this deal.
I hope to be proven wrong but no on A (right now) but I'm open to B and C being possibilities with C the likeliest between the two. Forsythe helps in giving us a reasonable expectation of production. Both **** and Barnes are wildcards who should easily surpass last season's respective production (not exactly a high bar) and maybe either recapture their previous form or live up to potential. I'm not saying the latter options are likely just possible.
And even if we did continue to struggle at 2B with those two and whomever else internally, we should still be able to make a deal of Forsythe for De Leon some time before the trade deadline as Jose's trade value--barring injury--should continue to rise assuming he pitches in MLB during the 1st half of the 2017 season while Forsythe will continue to provide steady production with less time left of team control. At that point, Brian Dozier or whomever else could still be in play to solve our quandary over the keystone.
Overpaying for Forsythe now makes sense if the Dodgers don't plan to use De Leon or anticipate that he will get hurt again. Obviously, the organization also prefers to have a complete team to start the season with, but that to me, is not worth paying the premium price on a deal when it should be available later on.Quake Griffin wrote:http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/meet-the-dodgers-right-handed-skyrocket/
I was going to post a tweet about this before I saw your post. This seems to confirm our suspicions of the organization having more faith in and preferring Brock Stewart over Jose De Leon. To be honest, Stewart's profile as a late bloomer in his mid-20s who already excels with 3 pitches with so little pitching experience (and wear and tear on his arm) is exciting. One could certainly argue that he's got more promise than De Leon and I'm beginning to be convinced.
I was just going through some of the old posts as well as trying to look up what's happened to Jose DeLeon since the trade, and caught this old gem. great stuff by both of you guys.
a) yes it turned out that Willie still can't play the 2nd base. he is going to be a left fielder or a DH in AL. both you guys got this one right
b) **** may be batting in the low .200 right now but his .447 SLG is keeping his bat at league average, while providing above average defense from all positions.
c) oh boy hindsight is really 20/20. Austin can play. flat out.
may i add the hindsight 20/20 v. 2.0?
c/2) Chris Taylor. it turned out that even if we did not have Forsythe or Utley, we would still have been fine at 2nd base. but having Logan and Chase in the locker room and in the dugout, is priceless.
Speaking of Barnes...
Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:23 pm
by Ranma
Neddy wrote:c) oh boy hindsight is really 20/20. Austin can play. flat out.
Re: Jose De Leon for Logan Forsythe Trade
Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:34 pm
by Neddy
when you go by the WAR value for our team, our best 8 position players are
1. Turner 4.2 WAR
2. Seager 3.7
3. Bellinger 2.6
4. Taylor 2.5
5. Grandal 2.2
6. Barnes 1.4
7. Puig 1.4
8. Forsythe 1.0
this works out great if you make a lineup of
1. LF Taylor
2. SS Seager
3. 3B Turner
4. RF Bellinger
5. 1B Forsythe
6. 2B Barnes
7. C Grandal
8. CF Puig
this is our best lineup... at least in Dave Roberts' model of staggering the 1 through 4 twice.