My Thought On Roster/Love Trade (Long Post)

[Scrapachenko]

I posted this over on RCF but since I've been hanging around here lately and haven't truly found a "home", I figured I'd bring it over here for discussion/thoughts too. There's been a lot of back and forth in other threads and I'd prefer it not get lost in the shuffle. Some of you know me from years past where I primarily posted on Cleveland.com and SaneCavsTalk as Scar4343 but as you can see I've been a Member(mostly lurker) here for many years as well.

I'm used to being an optimist but I think I'm much higher on this roster as currently constructed and it's ability to win this year AND in the future than most. Don't get me wrong, I'd take a Kevin Love trade(for the right price) but I don't think we need him and I'm kind of on the fence in even wanting him given his fit on the roster. Here's my thoughts:

PG
Starter=Kyrie Irving
Backup=Matthew Dellavedova
Summary: I think we're set at this position for the next several years. Kyrie is everything you could ask for from a point guard from a scoring standpoint: handles, creates own shot, efficient, great shooter. He's a good, but not great, passer but with LeBron James on the team he doesn't have to be the primary tablesetter. I think he will get better defensively. People often rag on young players on bad teams as being bad defenders Hell, people used to do that about LeBron James in his early years. Kyrie is big enough(6'3.5" in shoes at combine) to guard every 1 and almost every 2. He has good quickness and I think he'll put more effort into the defensive end when he doesn't have to handle so much of the offensive load.

Dellavedova is the IDEAL back-up to Kyrie because he's everything people complain about Kyrie not being. Dellavedova is a lock-down defender who is insanely tough, basketball smart and completely selfless. He also has a nice 3-pt shot and mid-range game. He's sort of like a smaller, guard-version of Anderson Varejao in a lot of ways but just substitute Varejao's rebound skills with Delly's shooting skills. Bradley Beal said that Dellavedova was the toughest defender he faced all year, he's that good. He'll only get better and he's the exact kind of "glue guy" that championship teams have. I've seen a lot of people say that Kyrie is a bad fit with LeBron because he's ball-domninant and that LeBron would be better off with a 3 and D guy at the point. That's EXACTLY what Dellavedova is at the point and he's young and cheap.

SG
Starter: Andrew Wiggins/Dion Waiters
Others: Carrick Felix, Joe Harris, Mike Miller, Ray Allen?
Summary: A lot of depth at this position and a few guys that we know can play. I like Dion Waiters on this team in the short-term and in the long-term. However, he can really be one of three things for us. He can be a quality starter running the floor with LeBron and Kyrie, a great 6th man on par with anyone in the league or our most tradeable asset. I think his production, potential and contract makes him attractive for us and for other teams. He's been productive in his two seasons and his percentages and efficiency(with the exception of FT%) improved this year and I think will get even better. On defense, he's a gritty defender and a tough guy. Definitely a guy I want on my side. Whether I'm the Cavs or another teams' GM I like the idea of seeing what he has while knowing that I have him under contract for at least the next 2 years at roughly $9 million and then have the right to match.

Wiggins I wasn't as high on until we got LeBron James. I think he's an IDEAL fit next to LeBron and stands to gain a lot from playing with him and being mentored by him. LeBron is one of the only people on the planet that can outperform Wiggins as an athlete on both ends of the floor. Wiggins has always seemed to coast a little bit on his athleticism. However, he will be challenged now and this will only make him better. He's a got a good looking stroke and can obviously get out on the break. What excites me most about him is his potential and production on defense. Rookies and young players are notoriously inconsistent but elite defensive players are consistent. I think he can be an elite defender today and guard almost anyone in the league from 1 to 3. Long-term he could be the Tracy McGrady, Scottie Pippen level some have compared him to but the chances of that are remote and a lot depends on how he approaches getting better the next few years. Even if he doesn't develop into that I think his floor is a Trevor Ariza type player which isn't a bad guy to have at all.

Felix and Harris look to be decent young players but probably won't be here long-term. However, they are guys that I think will hold some value and could be trade pieces as throw-ins in deals. Miller and possibly Allen are still great shooters that can space the floor for LeBron.

SF
Starter: LeBron James
Backups: Wiggins, Jones, Miller, who cares we have LeBron hopefully for the next 10 years
Summary: We have LeBron James and that means we really can't get any better at this position. I guess you could say it's cool we have Wiggins to spot him some rest if he shows that he's capable of playing. Jones is a veteran shooter and so is Miller.

PF
Starter: Tristan Thompson
Backups: Anthony Bennett, (Anderson Varejao), (LeBron James), Dwight Powell
Summary: I like TT as a Udonis Haslem type PF that is a good rebounder, solid defender and will do some dirty work. His shot looked better and it really showed at the FT line and outside of 15 feet(the little he shot from there). He finishes pretty well around the basket and seems smart enough that he'll get easy baskets when help is drawn to LeBron, Kyrie, Waiters, Wiggins, etc. on penetration. It's weird as hell he changed hands shooting wise but it's nice that he's able to use either one pretty well around the hoop.

I think Bennett was written off way too early(said it all last year) and that he started out behind the 8 ball last year due to shoulder surgery and could never quite get caught up. I also think he let the limelight and negativity affect him and his confidence was non-existence. He's done a lot in just a few short months to address his conditioning and health problems and LeBron will do wonders to help him out. LeBron has always had the ability to project confidence onto his teammates and he's always made it a point to believe in his teammates. Bennett has skill, he's fixing his conditioning and if he keeps that up, LeBron will fix his confidence by going to him time and again until he feels comfortable. I think he can be a very good rebounder and play a stretch 4 role. I actually can't think of a good comparison for him but I think he'll at least be a starter in the league someday.

Teams go small a lot these days so the 4 position has really changed. I'm not sure Powell will even make the team unless we make a trade of other players on the roster. Roster spots are getting tight.

C
Starter: Anderson Varejao
Backups: Brendan Haywood's corpse, Dwight Powell, (Thompson)
Summary: This position scares the hell out of me. I love Andy but he has always been best as a backup and pairing him with Thompson leaves us with suspect shooting from our bigs in the lineup. Even if he was an ideal fit as a starter, he can't be counted on to stay on the court. That leaves us either woefully undersized up front or starting Brendan Haywood(who I'd rather see rack up DNPs until we flip his contract in a trade next year) or a late 2nd-round pick at Center.

This position is one of the biggest reasons I'm not fully on the Love bandwagon. From just a frontcourt perspective, if we swapped him for Bennet do we get better? ABSOLUTELY. However, it's still a one-for-one swap between a guy who can't guard Centers to a guy who can't guard anyone. (To be fair, Love is a good rebounder(which helps defensively) and what I said about Kyrie's defense could apply to him as well in that he may turn things around on a better team, with better teammates and more expectations.) Even if Andy stays healthy all year, I don't want him racking up big minutes. He plays way too hard for that and we'll need him come playoff time. Now if we could get a young, defensive big like Dieng in a Love trade that could make us better at two spots but that remains to be seen. I think from a trade perspective, if we really, truly are looking to trade some of our young assets for frontcourt help I'd rather it be at the 5. I know, I know there hasn't been anyone at the 5 that has said they're leaving like Love. There's no one available. I'm content with shopping around and waiting to see if there will be.

In the mean time, I'm not sure what we'll do at this position. Okafor's neck issues scare the hell out of me and the rest of them are pretty much garbage. I'd be curious to see what Dion Waiters and 2 1st round picks might fetch us around the league.

I'll say this, I'm excited as hell to see this team this year and would love to see who gets better and meshes with LeBron and who doesn't. I think that might affect a lot of what our needs are via trade and what we could get for some of our players via trade.

[kbrow20]

Ok here is my think. If you guys want a 3rd player but you don't want to give up Wiggins, then keep Wiggins and do this move

Minnesota get Waiters + Bennett + TT + 1st
Cavs get Pek + Martin + Turiaf + Young
76ers get Varejao + GR3

You get to keep your Wiggins and you get a 4th tier guy to take you over the top

C Pek / Haywood / Turiaf
PF Young / Thomas / Murphy
SF James / Miller / Jones
SG Wiggins / Martin / Harris
PG Irving / Bella / Lucas 3

That gives you a better roster without losing Wiggins

[Roger Mexico]

Scar....Great post. I've read it 5 times and finally found the opportunity to respond to it. However, I agree with the whole tenor and tome of the post, so I don't have much more to offer. You know your basketball and should be more aggressive in your comments.

[SwishMaster90]

I would also add maybe Will Cherry as a possible 3rd PG similar to the Suns. He seems nearly playoff ready to me. To be honest, all three players brings something new to the table for us. I would love to see two points guards on the same floor while Kyrie and LeBron rests. Anyone else agree?

Also, aren't we looking into getting Cherry if I am correct?

[SwishMaster90]

Ok here is my think. If you guys want a 3rd player but you don't want to give up Wiggins, then keep Wiggins and do this move

Minnesota get Waiters + Bennett + TT + 1st
Cavs get Pek + Martin + Turiaf + Young
76ers get Varejao + GR3

You get to keep your Wiggins and you get a 4th tier guy to take you over the top

C Pek / Haywood / Turiaf
PF Young / Thomas / Murphy
SF James / Miller / Jones
SG Wiggins / Martin / Harris
PG Irving / Bella / Lucas 3

Sorry but Varejao isn't going anywhere. He's one of LeBron's good friends. I would also trade Lucas and get Will Cherry. He will cost less too. Also... I still see Love joining the team though

That gives you a better roster without losing Wiggins

[Saltine]

Ok here is my think. If you guys want a 3rd player but you don't want to give up Wiggins, then keep Wiggins and do this move

Minnesota get Waiters + Bennett + TT + 1st
Cavs get Pek + Martin + Turiaf + Young
76ers get Varejao + GR3

You get to keep your Wiggins and you get a 4th tier guy to take you over the top

C Pek / Haywood / Turiaf
PF Young / Thomas / Murphy
SF James / Miller / Jones
SG Wiggins / Martin / Harris
PG Irving / Bella / Lucas 3

That gives you a better roster without losing Wiggins

LOL, that's a total non starter. Why on earth would we want TT and Bennett; a backup and a bust? Since we just drafted Lavine and GR3 to play SG, and have Martin, Bud, Brewer, and Bazz on the wing, why would we want Waiters??? These guys are filler with Wiggins, we have no interest in them other than in that capacity.

No Wiggins, no Wolves

[basketballRob]

Ok here is my think. If you guys want a 3rd player but you don't want to give up Wiggins, then keep Wiggins and do this move

Minnesota get Waiters + Bennett + TT + 1st
Cavs get Pek + Martin + Turiaf + Young
76ers get Varejao + GR3

You get to keep your Wiggins and you get a 4th tier guy to take you over the top

C Pek / Haywood / Turiaf
PF Young / Thomas / Murphy
SF James / Miller / Jones
SG Wiggins / Martin / Harris
PG Irving / Bella / Lucas 3

That gives you a better roster without losing Wiggins

LOL, that's a total non starter. Why on earth would we want TT and Bennett; a backup and a bust? Since we just drafted Lavine and GR3 to play SG, and have Martin, Bud, Brewer, and Bazz on the wing, why would we want Waiters??? These guys are filler with Wiggins, we have no interest in them other than in that capacity.

No Wiggins, no Wolves

I think they should trade Wiggins for Vucevic and Tobias Harris? The Twolves should just try and keep Love.

[Saltine]

I think they should trade Wiggins for Vucevic and Tobias Harris? The Twolves should just try and keep Love.

That's not a bad idea, I would... I'd do a deal with Chicago for Love. I don't think Wiggins has the drive to become a star. He may be good someday, but I don't see greatness there. I'm always wary of a wing that can't handle the ball.

[marc2210]

The Pekovic to the Cavs trade isn't appealing at all. The Cavs give up twice as much as they take back, and to say that that's a bad trade for Minnesota is a joke. Pekovic isn't an upgrade over Varejao. Varejao has health issues, but outside of health I'd take Varejao over Pekovic so while having a more durable center would be nice it's certainly not worth giving up everything that we do in that trade.

[jbk1234]

A few observations:

(1) Wiggins isn't a starting-caliber 2 guard at this point. He can start at the 3 but his handle is way to shaky to start at the 2.

(2) If Love isn't on the roster, LBJ should play the 4 against 90% of the teams in the league.

(3) If Love isn't on the roster, you can't trade Dion Waiters period. Defending two scorers is doable. Defending three is very difficult.

(4) Cavs could certainly use an upgrade in the front court, but they should be trading front court players (TT or Bennett) to get one.

[kbrow20]

Ok here is my think. If you guys want a 3rd player but you don't want to give up Wiggins, then keep Wiggins and do this move

Minnesota get Waiters + Bennett + TT + 1st
Cavs get Pek + Martin + Turiaf + Young
76ers get Varejao + GR3

You get to keep your Wiggins and you get a 4th tier guy to take you over the top

C Pek / Haywood / Turiaf
PF Young / Thomas / Murphy
SF James / Miller / Jones
SG Wiggins / Martin / Harris
PG Irving / Bella / Lucas 3

That gives you a better roster without losing Wiggins

LOL, that's a total non starter. Why on earth would we want TT and Bennett; a backup and a bust? Since we just drafted Lavine and GR3 to play SG, and have Martin, Bud, Brewer, and Bazz on the wing, why would we want Waiters??? These guys are filler with Wiggins, we have no interest in them other than in that capacity.

No Wiggins, no Wolves

Yeah but that would leave you guys to trade with bulls. That would send Love + Bennett + Hummel for Gibson + Mirotic + McBuckets + Dunleavy + 1st.

Wolves get a nice group of players and everyone gets to see two east caliber teams. So we all win.

Wolves get a solid Lineup
C Dieng / TT / ???
PF Gibson / Mirotic / Moute
SF McDermott / Brewer / Chase
SG LaVine / Waiters / Muhammad
PG Rubio / Sheved / JJ

So you walk out with 2 1st and gives you the best young talent. You don't keep Bennett and it makes Bulls give you both McDermott and Mirotic.

[kbrow20]

The Pekovic to the Cavs trade isn't appealing at all. The Cavs give up twice as much as they take back, and to say that that's a bad trade for Minnesota is a joke. Pekovic isn't an upgrade over Varejao. Varejao has health issues, but outside of health I'd take Varejao over Pekovic so while having a more durable center would be nice it's certainly not worth giving up everything that we do in that trade.

Ok first off
Pek is a tier 4 caliber player, Varejao isn't.
Young is way better than TT
Martin > Bennett.
Waiters is just a ok chucked
Turiaf is a proven C that will make a contending team better.
Turiaf > Varejao. Turiaf don't have any health issues and he is a better defender.
I personally think that would give one solid Big Men rotation

Haywood, Young , Pek, and Turiaf. You have a answer to everything.
So really every player you get is a upgrade from your current rotation and you get to keep Wiggins for your future. I can see why Twolves think that is a bad move because they trade a tier 4 player for a chucker, a bust that will get moved to Bulls, and a mediocre PF with one year left.

[mup]

The Pekovic to the Cavs trade isn't appealing at all. The Cavs give up twice as much as they take back, and to say that that's a bad trade for Minnesota is a joke. Pekovic isn't an upgrade over Varejao. Varejao has health issues, but outside of health I'd take Varejao over Pekovic so while having a more durable center would be nice it's certainly not worth giving up everything that we do in that trade.

Ok first off
Pek is a tier 4 caliber player, Varejao isn't.
Young is way better than TT
Martin > Bennett.
Waiters is just a ok chucked
Turiaf is a proven C that will make a contending team better.
Turiaf > Varejao. Turiaf don't have any health issues and he is a better defender.
I personally think that would give one solid Big Men rotation

Haywood, Young , Pek, and Turiaf. You have a answer to everything.
So really every player you get is a upgrade from your current rotation and you get to keep Wiggins for your future. I can see why Twolves think that is a bad move because they trade a tier 4 player for a chucker, a bust that will get moved to Bulls, and a mediocre PF with one year left.

Not persuasive at all. Young is garbage and Haywood is a contract, not an actual player. Nobody expects him to ever put on a uniform this year.

Also, on the court production aside, Varejao isn't going anywhere. People would riot if we included him in a trade for this trash, regardless of value.


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[kbrow20]

Ok first off Young is not a garbage player.Secondly you guys aren't the team I would have to persuade to do this trade. It would be 76ers and Twolves. I don't know if 76ers would give up a tier 4 player for a mediocre player in Varejao and a young prospect. I don't know if Twolves would give up a tier 4 player for scrubs just so they can get a better offer out of Bulls. Fact is that Waiters, Bennett, Varejao, and TT have no trade value, they actually have negative trade value. Pek and Young both have trade value.

[mup]

Ok first off Young is not a garbage player.Secondly you guys aren't the team I would have to persuade to do this trade. It would be 76ers and Twolves. I don't know if 76ers would give up a tier 4 player for a mediocre player in Varejao and a young prospect. I don't know if Twolves would give up a tier 4 player for scrubs just so they can get a better offer out of Bulls. Fact is that Waiters, Bennett, Varejao, and TT have no trade value, they actually have negative trade value. Pek and Young both have trade value.

Ok. If you're not trying to persuade Cavs fans, then why are you on the Cavs board? Who are you talking to then? Yourself?

We get it, bud. Everyone on the Cavs sucks and everyone on the Wolves is an all-star. Obviously we need to dump all of our awful players for Thaddeus Young and Turiaf and those other guys. Cool, shocked the Cavs haven't already dumped Varejao and those other bums for that awesome package but I guess you're probably right--- it's because the Sixers said no, right?


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[Cycklops]

If I'm the Cavs GM, assuming I can't keep Wiggins in the trade, I ponder, sigh, chew my bottom lip...then ship Wiggins for Love and don't worry about it at all after that. What ultimately makes it easy is that Kevin Love is 25 and thus actually not even in his prime yet, and Wiggins' ceiling is a Tracy McGrady-type player, I wouldn't cry if I had traded prime T-Mac for Kevin Love anyway.

Oh, one more crazy option....call up the Sixers, who hopefully still have Wiggins-fever, and offer them Wiggins for Noel and the rights to Embiid. You get your frontcourt taken care of and still have a potential superstar in the waiting.

A few observations:

(1) Wiggins isn't a starting-caliber 2 guard at this point. He can start at the 3 but his handle is way to shaky to start at the 2.

Why does Wiggins need a great handle? Kyrie and Lebron can take ballhandling duties. Right now, Wiggins needs to be able to run the plays, hit open shots, and play defense (which is apparently his specialty at this point). He also can fill the wing on the fast break pretty well...[/quote]

[kbrow20]

Ok first off Young is not a garbage player.Secondly you guys aren't the team I would have to persuade to do this trade. It would be 76ers and Twolves. I don't know if 76ers would give up a tier 4 player for a mediocre player in Varejao and a young prospect. I don't know if Twolves would give up a tier 4 player for scrubs just so they can get a better offer out of Bulls. Fact is that Waiters, Bennett, Varejao, and TT have no trade value, they actually have negative trade value. Pek and Young both have trade value.

Ok. If you're not trying to persuade Cavs fans, then why are you on the Cavs board? Who are you talking to then? Yourself?

We get it, bud. Everyone on the Cavs sucks and everyone on the Wolves is an all-star. Obviously we need to dump all of our awful players for Thaddeus Young and Turiaf and those other guys. Cool, shocked the Cavs haven't already dumped Varejao and those other bums for that awesome package but I guess you're probably right--- it's because the Sixers said no, right?
I never said every player on the Cavs suck. I never said that Twolves have a bunch of all star players. As you can clearly see that I am not a Twolves fan. I just thought I would suggest away for you guys to get a top 5 team without giving up Wiggins. Sorry for trying to help, get a personality change please. There is no reason for you to be so rude.


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[mup]

Ok first off Young is not a garbage player.Secondly you guys aren't the team I would have to persuade to do this trade. It would be 76ers and Twolves. I don't know if 76ers would give up a tier 4 player for a mediocre player in Varejao and a young prospect. I don't know if Twolves would give up a tier 4 player for scrubs just so they can get a better offer out of Bulls. Fact is that Waiters, Bennett, Varejao, and TT have no trade value, they actually have negative trade value. Pek and Young both have trade value.

Ok. If you're not trying to persuade Cavs fans, then why are you on the Cavs board? Who are you talking to then? Yourself?

We get it, bud. Everyone on the Cavs sucks and everyone on the Wolves is an all-star. Obviously we need to dump all of our awful players for Thaddeus Young and Turiaf and those other guys. Cool, shocked the Cavs haven't already dumped Varejao and those other bums for that awesome package but I guess you're probably right--- it's because the Sixers said no, right?
I never said every player on the Cavs suck. I never said that Twolves have a bunch of all star players. As you can clearly see that I am not a Twolves fan. I just thought I would suggest away for you guys to get a top 5 team without giving up Wiggins. Sorry for trying to help, get a personality change please. There is no reason for you to be so rude.


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Sir, you came on our board and called our players "scrubs" and said they had negative trade value, thus killing any possibility of a productive discussion before it began. If you don't expect people to react negatively, then perhaps you shouldn't make outrageous statements that would prompt a negative reaction. I doubt you will find many people on this board who agree that Waiters, Bennett, Thompson, and Varejao have negative value which, to me, means you'd be wiling to give an asset just to get rid of them--- something that is obviously not the case. Since your belief that these players were "scrubs" was the premise of your attempt "to help," and your trade offer reflected that, it predictably generated a negative reaction, much as you expected it would.


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[Scrapachenko]

How the hell did this thread become about some garbage trade scenario?

It sits here for a week with quite a few reads and no replies... Then, some idiot comes in and posts a terrible trade and it gets 16 replies about the trade in 3 days and 1 reply that actually has something to do with the OP. Don't we have the entire front page filled with threads about bad trades? Did we really need to hijack this one? Ugh...

If you're reading this, I suggest you scroll up and read my OP. I know, I know, it's a lot of words and none of those words propose a three-way trade. However, it's much better than anything else you'll find in this thread and you might actually get some insight from it.

[B Mac]

How the hell did this thread become about some garbage trade scenario?

It sits here for a week with quite a few reads and no replies... Then, some idiot comes in and posts a terrible trade and it gets 16 replies about the trade in 3 days and 1 reply that actually has something to do with the OP. Don't we have the entire front page filled with threads about bad trades? Did we really need to hijack this one? Ugh...

If you're reading this, I suggest you scroll up and read my OP. I know, I know, it's a lot of words and none of those words propose a three-way trade. However, it's much better than anything else you'll find in this thread and you might actually get some insight from it.

But creating a trade and then justifying it by ripping other players apart is so much fun!