Game 1: Rockies @ Brewers - 1:10 CST

[Turk Nowitzki]

Didn't get to see any of the game but LOL.

[Thunder Muscle]

Kind of ironic Braun can't stay healthy post-PED suspension, shocking.

Not alot of good out of today.

[Newz]

Kind of ironic Braun can't stay healthy post-PED suspension, shocking.

Not alot of good out of today.

I'm not sure if you talked to a lot of Brewer fans after Braun was caught... but if you listen to their expert opinion you'd know that Performance Enhancing Drugs do not enhance your performance.

I had an awesome conversation with someone I know the other day that went something like:

"People need to just let the Braun stuff go. PEDs don't really help that much anyways." - Him
"So do you think Barry Bonds is the best baseball player ever?" - Me
"What? No." - Him
"Well I mean... there were those years where he was hitting like he was playing a video game on the easiest setting." - Me
"THAT WAS BECAUSE HE TOOK ALL OF THOSE PEDs!!!" - Him

[trwi7]

I still have serious questions about whether or not PED's enhance your performance. They certainly don't help you hit 95 mph fastballs and sharp 12-6 curveballs. Every regular joe could take PED's and they wouldn't touch those pitches.

Where it most likely helps is recovering faster from injuries and I don't really think that's that big of a deal and they should be allowed to use them under the direct supervision of team doctors.

[Newz]

I still have serious questions about whether or not PED's enhance your performance. They certainly don't help you hit 95 mph fastballs and sharp 12-6 curveballs. Every regular joe could take PED's and they wouldn't touch those pitches.

Where it most likely helps is recovering faster from injuries and I don't really think that's that big of a deal and they should be allowed to use them under the direct supervision of team doctors.

Are you being serious or are you attempting to make a joke?

[trwi7]

What part do you disagree with?

[Newz]

What part do you disagree with?

I'm not sure if there are PEDs that enhance your hand-eye coordination. I doubt it and so I agree with that part. I'm like 6'0" and 160-165 pounds, so I couldn't really take PEDs and play any sport professionally. I just don't have the physical ability to do so. But saying that PEDs do not help athletes is, in all honesty, one of the most ridiculous things that I have ever read in my entire life. It's why I thought you were joking around.

1. No, it probably doesn't help them actually hit the ball.
2. If you are stronger it can increase your bat speed.
3. If you are stronger you can likely swing a bigger, heavier bat at the same or faster velocity.
4. It can help recovery time. Not just from injuries, but between games and during weightlifting sessions. So in theory you can lift multiple times a day, you can be physically ready for the next game as opposed to still being sore/having tired muscles like other athletes might and you could practice more because your body won't break down as fast.
5. It can improve your speed dramatically, which can make you far superior on the base paths, make you cover more ground in the outfield, etc.
6. You could use it to improve arm strength/endurance.
7. You could use it to increase your overall endurance.

So yeah, it isn't going to help some random guy off of the street become Ken Griffey Jr. But it can be the difference between a guy like Barry Bonds being a great player and a guy that is so good he's almost unfair. It can be the difference between a guy being a minor league player or a major league player.

I guess the real question would be... what do you disagree with? How AREN'T they performance enhancing?

[trwi7]

You're basically saying that hitting is all upper body strength, which is completely false.

Read this. http://steroids-and-baseball.com/

Actually you don't have to read it all because it's really long but just skim through it. The effects of steroids as performance enhancers in baseball are greatly exaggerated.

[Newz]

You're basically saying that hitting is all upper body strength, which is completely false.

Read this. http://steroids-and-baseball.com/

Actually you don't have to read it all because it's really long but just skim through it. The effects of steroids as performance enhancers in baseball are greatly exaggerated.

When did I say that hitting is all upper body strength?

That isn't what I said at all. Did you actually read what I posted?

[trwi7]

2. If you are stronger it can increase your bat speed.
3. If you are stronger you can likely swing a bigger, heavier bat at the same or faster velocity.

This sounds like upper body to me, doesn't it?

Here's the most important thing from the link I posted.

It is something from difficult to impossible to make even a decent estimate of what proportion of muscle added by steroid use is upper- versus lower-body, but we do know, very definitely, from copious comments in the scientific literature that steroid use very heavily favors upper-body musculature. (As the inimitable Casey Stengel famously said, "you could look it up"--or just check the medical-effects page here.) This is vital, so let me repeat it yet again, in an emphasis box:

Steroids have a markedly greater effect on upper-body strength than on lower-body strength.

Batting is almost exclusively powered by lower-body strength.

Beefcake doesn't drive long balls.

For this thought experiment, I used ratios of both 4:1 and a more moderate 3:1 upper/lower differential. I'll take the example of that 200-pound man who adds 20 extra pounds of pure muscle, a pretty substantial gain (and almost identical to that attributed to Barry Bonds).

Skipping over the arithmetic, if the upper/lower ration is 4:1, he'll be able to drive the ball an extra 30 inches or so; if it's 3:1, that would go up to maybe 45 inches.

Right away, we see that that's not much. And remember, too, that we have assigned all of his muscle gain to steroids, which is just silly: if he went through the same exercise regime without any steroids, he'd still gain some significant muscle. Just what does 2 to 4 extra feet mean? It's hard to say, but (and the line of thought is on the longer page) that kind of difference--that is, without the extra muscle the ball falls 2 to 4 feet short but with it it just clears the fence--might mean one extra home run a year for an average man; and, again, the purely steroidal component might not even mean that. So it's not at all surprising that the actual stats of the game show no effect from putative steroid use, bulked-up biceps or no.

It's just silly to say it has some huge effect. It may have a small effect but PEDs are far more likely to help a player recover from nagging injuries than they are to turn them into an all-star player, unless they were literally right on the cusp of being an all-star level player.

[Newz]

2. If you are stronger it can increase your bat speed.
3. If you are stronger you can likely swing a bigger, heavier bat at the same or faster velocity.

This sounds like upper body to me, doesn't it?

Here's the most important thing from the link I posted.

... It doesn't sound like upper body to me. Do you think I assume that these dudes take steroids and go do curls for an hour so that they get super huge arms or something? They are modern athletes, they are going to work out their entire body.

It's just silly to say it has some huge effect. It may have a small effect but PEDs are far more likely to help a player recover from nagging injuries than they are to turn them into an all-star player, unless they were literally right on the cusp of being an all-star level player.

Your stance on this issues is:

Being bigger, stronger, faster, recovering faster, being fresher between games and getting to practice more does not help you.

I think having that stance on this issue is honestly outrageous. You can correct me if I'm wrong, if that isn't your opinion. But that sounds like what you are saying since you are trying to explain to me why PEDs are not that big of a help.

[trwi7]

Bigger and stronger do not necessarily help baseball players. There is no evidence that it makes you faster or fresher between games. And you would practice the same amount with or without steroids unless you were hurt.

I mean, seriously, just read the link I posted. There is not a damn thing in there that shows that they actually enhance performance.

[Newz]

Bigger and stronger do not necessarily help baseball players.

... Okay...?

There is no evidence that it makes you faster or fresher between games.

It helps with your recovery time. Do you know why guys take PEDs? So they can recover and workout more. You don't just take them and get huge... you take them, you lift more because your muscles heal faster.

And you would practice the same amount with or without steroids unless you were hurt.

Again... what? They are going to take PEDs to help them recover, then they are going to use that recovery to workout more, take more reps in the cage, etc.

[Thunder Muscle]

I don't have concrete evidence but for me PEDs biggest advantage is the recovery time. If you can keep you body healthy/near 100% most of the season, you're going to have a significantly higher chance of putting up better #s than if you're dinged up, hurt, and/or out obviously. Its a long season and if you have an illegal method to help keep your body at 100%, its going to be a huge difference when you're not using that method. Its like taking away the turbo button on NBA Jam.

[Kerb Hohl]

Didn't Braun play basically the entire season after the season he tested positive? I think there's a little of both going on there.

Twirly. Look at these stats:

2000 League OPS of .782
2005 League OPS of .754
2010 League OPS of .734
2014 League OPS of .706

[trwi7]

Didn't Braun play basically the entire season after the season he tested positive? I think there's a little of both going on there.

Twirly. Look at these stats:

2000 League OPS of .782
2005 League OPS of .754
2010 League OPS of .734
2014 League OPS of .706

A lot of that is two new expansion teams with awful players in 2000 and the expansion of the strike zone.

[Kerb Hohl]

Didn't Braun play basically the entire season after the season he tested positive? I think there's a little of both going on there.

Twirly. Look at these stats:

2000 League OPS of .782
2005 League OPS of .754
2010 League OPS of .734
2014 League OPS of .706

A lot of that is two new expansion teams with awful players in 2000 and the expansion of the strike zone.

So if we want to have somebody hit 80 home runs at age 38 to beat Bonds' record, all we have to do is introduce 2 **** expansion teams in a few years. Got it.

[trwi7]

Didn't Braun play basically the entire season after the season he tested positive? I think there's a little of both going on there.

Twirly. Look at these stats:

2000 League OPS of .782
2005 League OPS of .754
2010 League OPS of .734
2014 League OPS of .706

A lot of that is two new expansion teams with awful players in 2000 and the expansion of the strike zone.

So if we want to have somebody hit 80 home runs at age 38 to beat Bonds' record, all we have to do is introduce 2 **** expansion teams in a few years. Got it.

Once again, read the link I gave. A man's peak strength happens around age 40. When Bonds was at or near his peak strength, with an amazing eye at the plate is it really that surprising that he hit homers? Add in the short right field at AT&T (309 down the line and 365 to straightaway right) without the strong swirling winds of Candlestick and it helps.

Add in the Diamondbacks being an expansion team with a ton of crappy players to start. Add in the small strike zone that has become huge in the past 5-6 years.

I don't particularly care about this so I'm done with the argument but there are perfectly reasonable explanations for the offensive increase other than just OMG steroids!

[Newz]

I thought you said being big and strong didn't really help in baseball? Or does only 'peak man strength at 40' help you hit home runs? So if you could use PEDs in order to reach that level of strength at an earlier age and stay at that level of strength for 15-20 years... that wouldn't help?

I mean that in addition to all of the other benefits of PEDs.

I personally really don't care. If I were in charge of the MLB I'd try to keep them illegal as I think they are a health hazard to pitchers. But I could probably be convinced to let them go... I certainly don't care if they are legal in regular society.

Just the idea that being bigger, stronger, faster, recovering faster, being able to train more/harder, etc. not being an advantage is laughable. There is nothing 'reasonable' about that opinion.