What's wrong with Wes? Edit: Is Wes actually good?

aussiewill · Post #1 » by **aussiewill** » Thu Feb 4, 2016 12:44 pm

His shooting has been awful for a while now and he doesn't seem to be contributing in other fashions. He is shooting .381 from the field and .345 from beyond the arc. These are by far and away his worst of his career. Across the board, his averages are all below his career average. This contract is looking like a shocker.

Have to wonder how much the achilles is hampering still?

Post #2 » by **Texas Chuck** » Thu Feb 4, 2016 3:44 pm

his defense continues to be on point tho. yet another night where the best offensive wing on the other team struggles against him.

It's not his shooting that worries be nearly as much as his inability to get shots off. His movement offensively remains really bad and despite Rick having a great system and the team having multiple creators, they still can't get him many good looks. Look at how many open shots JJ and Parsons got last night compared to him.

Teams know he can't go by anybody and if he does, he can't finish in the paint. So you can put a weak defender on him and just stay close preventing the three.

The question is, can after a summer of rest and rehabilitation can this be improved, or is this the new Wes physically? It's why the contract was such a big risk.

Post #3 » by **Dirk** » Fri Feb 5, 2016 12:23 pm

Sometimes I've listened to the away commentary and they brought up how he has a limp, just shows that it sticks out to other people who don't watch every game. Something that was more noticeable early in the season.

So just off that, he surely his "protecting himself"... and isn't being totally free. He may not be very athletic, but he's looked awful when trying to finish at the rim... almost comical really. And like Chuck said, when he is no threat to drive the ball, it makes it way easier to guard him, since he doesn't have Korver/Reddick like movement.

He has taken a high number of tough shots, where he steps back, a guy is on his face... still... stats show that he is getting about the same type of looks he had last year, but he's obviously not been hitting them at the same clip.

In the Miami game, there were a couple of instances where you clearly saw a hopeless look of frustration in his face, like he is being prevented from doing more. It's sad to see really... and the only hope is that this is all part of the process of rehabilitation.

The contract was always going to be dumb. Whenever we buy a damaged product we get a discount. Even if he was playing at his best level, it still wouldn't make the decision a right one.

Knosh · Post #4 » by **Knosh** » Fri Feb 5, 2016 3:37 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:his defense continues to be on point tho. yet another night where the best offensive wing on the other team struggles against him.

It's not his shooting that worries be nearly as much as his inability to get shots off. His movement offensively remains really bad and despite Rick having a great system and the team having multiple creators, they still can't get him many good looks. Look at how many open shots JJ and Parsons got last night compared to him.

Yeah, his movement is bad and that's part of why he isn't getting good looks. But I think there is more to it.

Does Rick really have a great system? His offense looked great the last few years, but that's not the same offense he is running this season. The personnel this season is very different from last season and Carlisle has tried to adjust the offense accordingly. So you kind of have to throw the past success out of the window and look at what's going on this season:
The Mavs are 17th in offensive rating. If you look at Adjusted Ortg, which accounts for the strength of defenses played, Mavs are 22nd. That's not just Matthews not getting open or not making the shots he does get.

Teams know he can't go by anybody and if he does, he can't finish in the paint. So you can put a weak defender on him and just stay close preventing the three.

Sure, Wes would be a better player if he also could get by guys. But what you are describing is still a valuable offensive player imo. Put Wes in the corner, run a pick and roll and make Wes' defender choose between staying close on Wes or helping at the rim. Tons of teams get open corner 3s or layups that way. The issue is that a D-Will+Zaza PnR isn't nearly as threatening as a Ellis+Tyson PnR and the defense isn't forced to make tough choices.

JamesConway · Post #5 » by **JamesConway** » Thu Dec 8, 2016 8:19 pm

*Up*

Wes has taken more than 100 threes over the last thirteen games, converting 47 of them on a 45% clip. He's now up to 38,3% from three over the season on eight attempts per game. I'm all in favor of keeping him around now until the TDL, maybe even draft night. If he can stabilize his performances on around 38-40% I don't see how this can be considered a bad contract anymore. He's looking great as of late. I really didn't think that he was capable of bouncing back like it currently looks he does.

Rand10 · Post #6 » by **Rand10** » Fri Dec 9, 2016 1:48 am

I agree, no need to dump his contract. If we can get a decent pick back I would move him, but otherwise I hope we wait it out. Wes would be great to have around a team of young players, and he might have more trade value later with fewer years left on his deal.

I guess you could argue for dumping him for cap space, but I don't see us landing a major FA next offseason anyway. Not until we get some other pieces to build around with Barnes.

Hadley · Post #7 » by **Hadley** » Fri Dec 9, 2016 6:17 am

Look at our offense, its just terrible. He gets very few Open Shots - so obviously he is not shooting well.

Jinra · Post #8 » by **Jinra** » Fri Dec 9, 2016 7:48 pm

Unfair expectation.
Unfair salary.
Unfair team to compliment his abilities.
Unfairly forced to be a Robin when he is actually a Wonder Twin or something.

2011Champs · Post #9 » by **2011Champs** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:33 am

Matthews is arguably the best player on the team right now, not a thing is wrong with Wes.

Torgeir Bryn · Post #10 » by **Torgeir Bryn** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:05 pm

This turnaround was surprising, but very pleasant.

Suka Bongcic · Post #11 » by **Suka Bongcic** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:18 pm

2011Champs wrote:Matthews is arguably the best player on the team right now, not a thing is wrong with Wes anymore.

Fixed. There was definitely something wrong offensively the first 2-3 weeks. He was shooting 33% from the field. He definitely looks like he's back to form now though.

fuller4379 · Post #12 » by **fuller4379** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:37 am

Glad his shooting slump is over. If he continues to play like this, he is worth the big contract he signed.

Post #13 » by **Dirk** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:48 pm

I have always been a bit shocked with the valuation of Matthews on the general/trade board on RealGM. Even before he started shooting better, people acted as if he was crippled and had the worst contract in the league. That included some Mavs fans who seemed to devalue him and be ok with trading him for trash like Kanter and whatnot. That has made me want to post more over there simply to try and defend the value of the Mavs players that show up in trade ideas and it's very very obvious that basically... they have no idea about Matthews.

These are two good examples in crunch time to show to the "experts" who just use the generic things of overpaid and injured.

Video: https://streamable.com/i9mp4

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

I think the Mavs should only trade him if Matthews wants out or if they actually get a good pick/prospect in a deal for him. Otherwise cap space is meaningless (the Mavs won't be able to sign anyone good with it).

fuller4379 · Post #14 » by **fuller4379** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:04 pm

After his shooting slump early this season, he has been as good as you could expect from him. He is good on offense and can be great on defense. You must have someone who can take the other team's best offensive player out at the end of the game. Wes is capable of doing that. Based on what people were paying last season for free agents, I would not consider Wes "overpaid". Ideally, he is the third best player on this team. We need an alpha though and don't have that anymore. Barnes can be the second best player. I agree that I would not trade Wes unless either someone offers something great in return or Wes requests a trade because he doesn't want to be on a rebuild team.

Devassa · Post #15 » by **Devassa** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:12 pm

Is Matthews good? He was always good, I just don't see a point in keeping him. It doesn't do us or him any good. Trade him to the Kings for their pick and a player and that gives us more help than Wes could ever give us on the court

Post #16 » by **Dirk** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:50 pm

Devassa wrote:Is Matthews good? He was always good, I just don't see a point in keeping him. It doesn't do us or him any good. Trade him to the Kings for their pick and a player and that gives us more help than Wes could ever give us on the court

The Kings owe a 1st rounder to Chicago (for a trade they made for JJ Hickson way back - Hickson played 35 games for them before being waived). This is the year that the pick finally conveys or turns into 2 2nd rounders. It still counts as a traded 1st round pick.

This means that the pick they owe to the Sixers has to be conveyed in 2019 (unprotected). Tthey traded a 1st round pick to dump contracts on them so they gained cap space... to sign Matthews and Monta Ellis.

So their 2018 1st rounder can't be traded. This is all because of the Stepien rule. They can't trade consecutive 1st round picks. But you can have the option to swap picks. So you could have a trade where you send them Matthews and have the option of swapping picks with them... which could be valuable considering Cousins may leave in 2018.

This is all fantasy though. We know the Mavs are not likely to trade Matthews. The Kings, even the Kings, are not dumb enough to make a trade where they expose themselves that much. But if we're discussing fantasy trades you can have something basic that works: Matthews for Afflalo (expires but is owed 1.5 million next year) + Mclemore (expires, rfa) + WCS.

Jinra · Post #17 » by **Jinra** » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:42 pm

Wes is a good player, good leader, great defender and great locker room guy. He has a lot of positives, but I would like to explore getting younger, more athletic and a better 2-way player at that position.

Everybody except Harrison Barnes (and I guess Dirk :winkgrin:

) are available in my book. But as most have said, the Mavericks have their own plan.

JamesConway · Post #18 » by **JamesConway** » Fri Jan 6, 2017 9:06 pm

Mavs are 'listening' on Matthews per Kevin Arnovitz in Zach Lowe's latest podcast. Starts around 49:30. They briefly talk about Bogut before, but nothing really new except the Matthews-part:

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=18419964

Post #19 » by **Dirk** » Sat Jan 7, 2017 1:20 pm

JamesConway wrote:Mavs are 'listening' on Matthews per Kevin Arnovitz in Zach Lowe's latest podcast. Starts around 49:30. They briefly talk about Bogut before, but nothing really new except the Matthews-part:

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=18419964

I liked how they had nothing to talk about and the guy brings up Mavs are listening. I interpret it as "teams are calling the Mavs". How do you like WCS? Trading him to the Kings is an obvious option.

JamesConway · Post #20 » by **JamesConway** » Sat Jan 7, 2017 2:00 pm

Dirk Nowitzki wrote:
JamesConway wrote:Mavs are 'listening' on Matthews per Kevin Arnovitz in Zach Lowe's latest podcast. Starts around 49:30. They briefly talk about Bogut before, but nothing really new except the Matthews-part:

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=18419964

I liked how they had nothing to talk about and the guy brings up Mavs are listening. I interpret it as "teams are calling the Mavs". How do you like WCS? Trading him to the Kings is an obvious option.

I wouldn't hesitate for a second here. There aren't many promising young centers available, but you have to imagine that WCS is one of them given how little playing time he currently sees. Compared to his rookie-year his role has actually been decreased by roughly 50%. That's a terrible trend for a Top 6 pick in his sophomore year. Besides that the Kings have Cousins and Koufos who can both start, another Center-prospect with Papagiannis (lottery pick) coming up and even Labissiere (1st round pick) is somewhat of a PF/C hybrid. That's more than enough to make up for the consequences in their big men-rotation...

WCS is pretty much at the top of my list. Him and Noel. If we could get either one w/o touching our 1st round pick I'd be all over that. May it be via a trade for either one or in Noel's case potentially also in RFA.