2012 Minor Leagues/Prospect Discussion Thread

[-MetA4-]

You can't argue he has something left to prove in AAA, which means he is blocked.

Just because he has nothing left to prove in AAA, doesn't mean he's "blocked". Thats what a 'AAAA' player is. Cooper's problem is that no matter what he does in the minors he will never have the tools needed to be an impact bat at the major league level; and unfortunately for him he is a 1B/DH thus his bat is what determines if he plays or not. He just doesn't project to be an impact 1B.

[flatjacket1]

You can't argue he has something left to prove in AAA, which means he is blocked.

Just because he has nothing left to prove in AAA, doesn't mean he's "blocked". Thats what a 'AAAA' player is. Cooper's problem is that no matter what he does in the minors he will never have the tools needed to be an impact bat at the major league level; and unfortunately for him he is a 1B/DH thus his bat is what determines if he plays or not. He just doesn't project to be an impact 1B.

"AAAA" player refers to a player who cannot succeed at the MLB level. David Cooper has never been given a shot, well an extended one anyways and no matter how bad Lind does we will still never consider the player who batted above .360, hit 50+ doubles and had an OBP of nearly .440 in the PCL.

Number don't lie, he can hit. I don't care what the projection is, he needs a look before we trade him. I know its bad to hope a player gets hurt but if Lind gets hurt, that's the only way we will see any trade value for him anyways. He almost outperformed Lind while struggling immensely during his September call up. Hit a couple balls off the wall in straight away center, more than half of his hits were for extra bases.

His BABIP was well below league average (he put the ball in play) and his ISO was higher than it was in AAA.

Cooper deserves a shot, at least a look before we give up on him. The only way that happens is via injury.

[Schadenfreude]

Couple things...one, Cooper hasn't proven that he can hit. He has had one good minor league season after several mediocre ones, and it involved him posting a BABIP of .381. Two, as you know, there are a couple caveats that come with BABIP, and one of them is infield fly rate; Cooper popped the ball up with staggering frequency. His BABIP wasn't terribly anomalous otherwise.

[-MetA4-]

"AAAA" player refers to a player who cannot succeed at the MLB level. David Cooper has never been given a shot

Thats because behind the numbers there is real scouting going on in the minor leagues. Cooper hasn't been given a "real" shot because he's not much of a prospect.

and no matter how bad Lind does we will still never consider the player who batted above .360, hit 50+ doubles and had an OBP of nearly .440 in the PCL.

You just answered it yourself: its the PCL. The organization has scouts and coaches looking at Cooper daily; the reality is that no one believes his PCL batting will translate at all to the MLB.

Number don't lie, he can hit.

Numbers do lie. In the previous 2 seasons in AA he was a sub .260 hitter with .729 and .769 OPS...then he gets to the PCL and all of a sudden he's hitting .360+ with a near 1.000 OPS? Its a complete mirage. He does not have the bat needed to play the position he plays (1B/DH). Hechavarria hits .235 in New Hampshire and .389 in Las Vegas in the same season: the numbers in the PCL mean next to nothing.

Thats the thing we generally seem to forget. All we see is numbers; whereas success in the major leagues requires certain attributes that the numbers often hide. Even AAA; the closest step from the MLB, is a huge downgrade in competition. We see a guy hitting .320+ when in reality the scouting report on that same player could put him as a player that will never hit over .250 in the majors. Brad Mills had no problem putting up great results even in the batting-inflated PCL yet he's never going to be even an average MLB pitcher. Go Tweet any minor-league baseball writer; there isn't one person that thinks that Cooper can be a starting-quality 1B.

[flatjacket1]

Couple things...one, Cooper hasn't proven that he can hit. He has had one good minor league season after several mediocre ones, and it involved him posting a BABIP of .381. Two, as you know, there are a couple caveats that come with BABIP, and one of them is infield fly rate; Cooper popped the ball up with staggering frequency. His BABIP wasn't terribly anomalous otherwise.

The reason his BABIP is so high is because like 1/3rd of his hits were doubles. He popped up a lot but that's because he is shooting for doubles.

He is a good, serviceable player. I know you love Lind but Cooper should at least be given a shot.

[Al_Oliver]

i mean if your a minor league player, why would u ever want to be in the JAYS system. With all that depth there are plently of guys ready to play at the next stage... but unfortunately many never had a chance from the start.

David Cooper is good enough to play in the MLB, or atleast he's proven that at the minor league level. Moises Sierra is hugely under rated and has no MLB starts list in his future. Travis Snider will make it to the MLB but he is literally taring up the minors but JAYS can afford to keep him there longer. Drew Hutchison will be sent down as soon as McGowan is ready. Chad Jenkins, Chad Beck, Deck McGuire and rest of the star studed pitchers have an uphill battle, while in any other system, they'd be getting MLB experience.

Would you really want to be a minor league player in this system?

If you produce when you do get a chance in the Big Leagues, then you will get an opportunity here or elsewhere. Same as most organizations... Frankly, I don't see the issue

[WpgPage]

I understand your frustrations with Lind but Cooper is not the answer, his stats are clearly PCL biased add that to the fact that every single talent evaluation agency with any credibility has dismissed him as a AAAA player and it looks pretty clear. I don't believe every word that KLaw or BA or BP say but when everyone of them is saying the same thing and scouts are agreeing with them I think its pretty clear. Have you ever actually looked at his swing? Its not great, his bat speed is way below average and his pitch recognition doesn't seem so solid ether. Plus hes an absolute mess at 1B the guy is not a MLB player plain and simple.

[Schadenfreude]

The reason his BABIP is so high is because like 1/3rd of his hits were doubles. He popped up a lot but that's because he is shooting for doubles.

This doesn't really make much, if any, sense; why does shooting for doubles lead to a disproportionate rate of pop-ups?

He is a good, serviceable player. I know you love Lind but Cooper should at least be given a shot.[/quote]

I don't love Lind; I scarcely tolerate him. But I don't believe that Cooper is a major league first baseman or DH. His defense at 1B is poor, which raises the bar for his offense even further, and he has yet to prove that he can clear that bar.

[Hendrix]

I understand your frustrations with Lind but Cooper is not the answer, his stats are clearly PCL biased add that to the fact that every single talent evaluation agency with any credibility has dismissed him as a AAAA player and it looks pretty clear. I don't believe every word that KLaw or BA or BP say but when everyone of them is saying the same thing and scouts are agreeing with them I think its pretty clear. Have you ever actually looked at his swing? Its not great, his bat speed is way below average and his pitch recognition doesn't seem so solid ether. Plus hes an absolute mess at 1B the guy is not a MLB player plain and simple.

I'm not sure if he's an MLB player, but I'de like to give him a shot. A high obp% type guy would be not such a bad thing with our current group of sluggers. And it's not like we're going to miss Lind, who himself has played like a replacment level player for a while now. How much worse could Cooper produce?

I don't really agree with some of what you said either. How are his stats cleary PCL inflated? Isn't the PCL all about being an easy place to hit the ball out of the park? Cooper hasn't benifited from that with single digit HR's. He has had an 8% k rate, and a high bb%. Basically he puts the ball in play a lot, draws a lot of walks, and just ends up on base a lot which I don't think are huge factors with playing in Vegas. I'd say a high babip is more the reason with his stats than the PLC. But even if you adjust his babip down to normal he still would of been .300+ in avg, and .400+ in OB%, which are still nice, and I could potentially see being useful to our team even with little ability to put the ball over the wall.

Also I don't really think he's an absolute mess at 1b. He's not great, but he's not absolutly awful either.

[-MetA4-]

Isn't the PCL all about being an easy place to hit the ball out of the park? Cooper hasn't benifited from that with single digit HR's.

No, the PCL inflates everything. There is also the problem of desert-like conditions with hot temperatures which dry out the infields and thus inflate everything hit on the ground as well.

[Relentless88]

I'm not sure if he's an MLB player, but I'de like to give him a shot. A high obp% type guy would be not such a bad thing with our current group of sluggers.

Does Cooper have legit OBP skills or was his high OBP as a result of his high batting average?

Also, I recall Cooper being beyond awful defensively at 1B in his September stint last year.

[Schadenfreude]

I'm not sure if he's an MLB player, but I'de like to give him a shot. A high obp% type guy would be not such a bad thing with our current group of sluggers.

Does Cooper have legit OBP skills or was his high OBP as a result of his high batting average?

Also, I recall Cooper being beyond awful defensively at 1B in his September stint last year.

He's a patient hitter, but it's a somewhat limited skill if pitchers can just fire fastballs, as they did during his first time up.

[Hendrix]

No, the PCL inflates everything. There is also the problem of desert-like conditions with hot temperatures which dry out the infields and thus inflate everything hit on the ground as well.

I suggested that even if you normalized his babip (|which should take into account any other PCL inflation), he would still look good # wise. And I don't think theres should be that much of an inflation (or deflation) of k%, and bb%, which are a big part in why his numbers were as good as they were.

Does Cooper have legit OBP skills or was his high OBP as a result of his high batting average?

Also, I recall Cooper being beyond awful defensively at 1B in his September stint last year.

I think low k%, and high bb% are legit-type OBP skills. If they can translate to the majors is up for debate. But I think we should atleast give him a shot, and see what happens. I mean, what do we really have to lose with Lind putting up -0.3War over the last 3 seasons? Even if Cooper does suck balls, the net difference between what we have now, and him would be marginal at worst. Atleast if we promoted him we have the upside of maybe having an asset. If we keep him down there, we have no value in him.

[flatjacket1]

I'm not sure if he's an MLB player, but I'de like to give him a shot. A high obp% type guy would be not such a bad thing with our current group of sluggers.

Does Cooper have legit OBP skills or was his high OBP as a result of his high batting average?

Also, I recall Cooper being beyond awful defensively at 1B in his September stint last year.

He's a patient hitter, but it's a somewhat limited skill if pitchers can just fire fastballs, as they did during his first time up.

In his short stint he managed to OBP .284 (close to Lind's) while struggling. The majority of his hits were for extra bases. He was on pace for 42 doubles and 12 HR over 486 PA.

Lind walked 32 times in 542 AB's. Cooper was on pace to walk 42 times in 486 PA's. I call that "on base skills".

His BABIP at the MLB level was .228, which infers he didn't even get on base as much as he should have, especially considering that his BABIP in the minors was above .357 in all but two of his minor league levels/seasons.

Cooper projects to be a high on base, doubles hitter with decent defense. -4.0 UZR/150 for a player who it was his first time playing on turf is good. (Snider for example was -20 UZR/150 his first time on turf) It's also worth noting that Lind actually is fielding worse than Cooper was last year according to UZR/150.

I'm not arguing the kid is our best hitter in the minors or anything crazy like that, but rather in this experimental season, it might make sense to trade Lind/platoon him and give Cooper a shot, just to see if hes worth keeping before we trade him.

Leading AAA in batting average means he can at least contend with .300. He was better than a lot of players in an extremely large sample size.

[Relentless88]

I agree I wouldn't mind giving him a shot if Lind continues to contribute little. However, I'm not too optimistic about his chances if, like mentioned by others above, almost every scout has pegged him as a AAAA player.

On that note, do we have any other 1B prospects worth monitoring?