Can David Cooper be that 1B/DH that we're looking for

[baulderdash77]

A few things for Cooper- he is not a good fielder, but as primarily a DH that's not really an issue. He also isn't a good base runner, but you don't have to be fast to be effective.

He can be a no mistake baserunner who's not going to be a threat to steal and not take extra bases but still do what's required. There's lots of guys in baseball who can't run that are still effective. The list of worst baserunners always includes DH types who can't run. The lack of athletic ability is probably why they're DH's afterall. Adam Lind certainly can't run either.

This is primarily a comparison between Lind and Cooper and it's pretty hard to say that Lind should be playing over Cooper. For 450k Cooper is a cheap alternative who can free up budget space for a better player at a different position. Just because the team suddenly has a $120 million payroll doesn't mean that they can get stars at every position and they still have to find value at another position.

Cooper put up a .341 WOBA last year which was in the same range as Adam Dunn, ARod, Freddie Freeman and Kendrys Morales in the 1B/DH groups. Not to mention it was much better than Lind's .314 terrible WOBA.

[flatjacket1]

If everybody is so low on Lind why not give Cooper a chance? If by the deadline he isn't doing well, we make a mid season trade for a Pena type, all power no average type hitter to make you all happy.

[MikeM]

Cooper over Lind is a no-brainer for me. I mean, at least Cooper won't go up there, see 3 pitches and go sit down. With our new lineup, we don't necessarily need a bopper up there every at-bat. Just be adequate. I think Cooper has a better shot at being adequate than Lind and he costs 7M less.

And maybe there's some potential there. He might be an .800 OPS guy. That's actually really useful. He has a good chance at hitting RHP at least. That's useful.

[flatjacket1]

Cooper over Lind is a no-brainer for me. I mean, at least Cooper won't go up there, see 3 pitches and go sit down. With our new lineup, we don't necessarily need a bopper up there every at-bat. Just be adequate. I think Cooper has a better shot at being adequate than Lind and he costs 7M less.

And maybe there's some potential there. He might be an .800 OPS guy. That's actually really useful. He has a good chance at hitting RHP at least. That's useful.

Worth noting over the last 2 seasons in AAA he has had an OBP over 400, and a wOBA of over .400. Sure a masher would be great, but why not see what he can do?

Against lefties over the last 2 years in the minors, he has hit .369/.429/.556, so he at least deserves a platoon.

[Lateral Quicks]

Cooper over Lind is a no-brainer for me. I mean, at least Cooper won't go up there, see 3 pitches and go sit down. With our new lineup, we don't necessarily need a bopper up there every at-bat. Just be adequate. I think Cooper has a better shot at being adequate than Lind and he costs 7M less.

And maybe there's some potential there. He might be an .800 OPS guy. That's actually really useful. He has a good chance at hitting RHP at least. That's useful.

Worth noting over the last 2 seasons in AAA he has had an OBP over 400, and a wOBA of over .400. Sure a masher would be great, but why not see what he can do?

Against lefties over the last 2 years in the minors, he has hit .369/.429/.556, so he at least deserves a platoon.

BTW, the guy did hit 20 HRs in 550ABs in AA, and 16 between the two levels last year in 450ABs. Some people are making him out be Otis Nixon in the power department.

I'll take the guy who figures to get on base at a decent clip and put up a .750-.800 OPS in his first full year in the majors at age 25. If we needed a DH to hit 3rd or 4th, obviously I'd think differently.

[Randle McMurphy]

Player 1: 3864PA, 69HR (.017/PA), .284/.338/.414/.752
Player 2: 226PA, 6HR (.027/PA), .270/.310/.441/.750

One of these players is purported godsend Melky Cabrera...

... but apparently David Cooper doesn't hit for enough power for a corner outfield or DH spot.

Sure, Cabrera has the name-cachet and uber-young promotion at 20, but who gives a damn? I don't care how the Sniders or Cabreras of the world hit when they were 20, I care about how they hit now. And the evidence is that Cooper hat hit sufficiently well now to hold the DH spot.

One of those players has positional value, one of those players has defensive value, one of those players has a track record and an actual baseline in which he can be relied on to produce at the MLB level. Guess which one of those players is?

Though let's make this clear, Melky Cabrera wouldn't make a good full-time DH either. David Cooper would just make an awful one. I have no idea why he's still being brought up here as a real option on a team like this.

Aim higher, people.

[Randle McMurphy]

Cooper over Lind is a no-brainer for me. I mean, at least Cooper won't go up there, see 3 pitches and go sit down. With our new lineup, we don't necessarily need a bopper up there every at-bat. Just be adequate. I think Cooper has a better shot at being adequate than Lind and he costs 7M less.

And maybe there's some potential there. He might be an .800 OPS guy. That's actually really useful. He has a good chance at hitting RHP at least. That's useful.

Worth noting over the last 2 seasons in AAA he has had an OBP over 400, and a wOBA of over .400. Sure a masher would be great, but why not see what he can do?

Against lefties over the last 2 years in the minors, he has hit .369/.429/.556, so he at least deserves a platoon.

It's almost like hitting in the PCL and playing half your games in Vegas boosts your offensive numbers to an unsustainably high level. Who would have thought context matters?

[Randle McMurphy]

If everybody is so low on Lind why not give Cooper a chance? If by the deadline he isn't doing well, we make a mid season trade for a Pena type, all power no average type hitter to make you all happy.

Because this isn't the either/or dilemma between two bad players that you present it as. There are multiple superior options available to the team that don't involve either Lind or Cooper getting full-time ABs at DH.

[Hendrix]

Aim higher, people.

This.

It seems like most people advocating Cooper, are comparing him to Lind, and only Lind as another option. There are other options out there, and they are a million times better. Potentially being a better option than Adam friggin Lind does not mean that he should be a DH on a team trying to get to the playoffs. It means he's maybe better than one of the worst players in baseball.

[TR50]

Probably not possible, but I never noticed that Youk was a FA out there. He would be a kind of dainty 1B to plug in as the #5 hitter

Not happening; I know.

[The_Hater]

Probably not possible, but I never noticed that Youk was a FA out there. He would be a kind of dainty 1B to plug in as the #5 hitter

Not happening; I know.

Love Youk but I'm guessing that some team desperate for a 3B will sign him and play him there. The FA market is very thin at 3B this year. Anything longer than 2 years is probably high risk for Youk at this stage but I'm betting that some team foolishly goes all in for 3-4 years.

[Lateral Quicks]

Aim higher, people.

This.

It seems like most people advocating Cooper, are comparing him to Lind, and only Lind as another option. There are other options out there, and they are a million times better. Potentially being a better option than Adam friggin Lind does not mean that he should be a DH on a team trying to get to the playoffs. It means he's maybe better than one of the worst players in baseball.

Arguments raised in this thread against David Cooper:

1. He can't field.

Agreed. No one says that he can. We're talking about him filling DH, not 1B.

2. He can't run.

Agreed. No one says that he can. How many other DH's can run?

3. He can't hit for power.

I'd wager he'll hit at least 50% more home runs over a full major league season than Melky Cabrera, and unlike many power hitters he'll figure to hit for a decent average. The Jays don't need 30HR power out of the DH spot this season.

4. He's young and inexperienced/unreliable.

What guy embarking on their major league career isn't inexperienced/unreliable? Cooper put up dominating numbers in Vegas over a large sample size (show me another guy who had an OBP over .400 over 800+ ABs), and batted .300 in 1/4 of a season - a small sample to be sure - in the majors last year. I'll take my chances with him.

5. There are better options available on the market.

Of course there are. Unless you're Mike Trout, there are always better options. If the Jays' have unlimited payroll this year, by all means let's go get an established player. But it's a questions of priorities and cost/benefit.

6. A contending team can't afford a guy like Cooper in their lineup.

Nonsense. World Series champions usually have multiple worse offensive players than Cooper in their lineups.

The numbers indicate he has great potential to be a very solid ~.750-.800 OPS DH in the 7th hole for a bargain-basement price of ~500K, allowing the Jays to focus on other areas. And if he doesn't work out, they can always try to upgrade at the trade deadline. I really don't understand how objective baseball people can look at that benefit/cost ratio and think he's a trash option. Anyways, I've said all that I can say on this topic.

[Hendrix]

Are you serious with all that?

[TheMainEvent]

I've never particularly liked Cooper... I figured a bad Lind is still better than an average Cooper. But I'm kind of getting tired of Lind, so if there aren't legitimately better options available -- and looking at FAs, I don't really see any -- I can kind of go with the "why not Cooper?" argument. I still don't like him though, so I'd never say he's "the DH that we're looking for." We / the Jays should ALWAYS be looking for better players than Cooper.

[flatjacket1]

If everybody is so low on Lind why not give Cooper a chance? If by the deadline he isn't doing well, we make a mid season trade for a Pena type, all power no average type hitter to make you all happy.

Because this isn't the either/or dilemma between two bad players that you present it as. There are multiple superior options available to the team that don't involve either Lind or Cooper getting full-time ABs at DH.

Fine, instead of going for another front of the rotation starter, lets trade/sign a DH. It just doesn't make sense to me when you have a guy who could OBP .350 next season, regardless of positional value. He also cost like 414k or whatever to field, allowing us to spend a ton more money elsewhere. Guys who can hit better than Cooper don't come cheap.

I don't see why we can't try him out until the All-Star break. What's the point in keeping him in the minors another year?

It's almost like hitting in the PCL and playing half your games in Vegas boosts your offensive numbers to an unsustainably high level. Who would have thought context matters?

Brett Lawrie should have never gotten promoted then?

[s e n s i]

cooper is not only DH-level slow, he's jose molina-level slow. like has to settle for a single despite shooting the ball down the line and all the way to the fence slow. like can't score from 2nd on ball that barely scoots into the outfield slow. like can't beat an average speed runner to the bag despite fielding the ball 6 feet off the line slow.

also i'll take that bet on cooper hitting 50% more jacks than cabrera this season.

[Randle McMurphy]

1. He can't field.

Agreed. No one says that he can. We're talking about him filling DH, not 1B.

If he can't field at all (and he can't), it limits his utility to the team. But that isn't why it makes no sense to use him as a primary DH on a contending team.

2. He can't run.

Agreed. No one says that he can. How many other DH's can run?

If he can't run at all (and he can't), it limits his value to the team. But that isn't why it makes no sense to use him as a primary DH on a contending team.

3. He can't hit for power.

I'd wager he'll hit at least 50% more home runs over a full major league season than Melky Cabrera

Irrelevant (Melky Cabrera's value as a LF has absolutely nothing to do with David Cooper or finding a good DH) and also based on nothing in the way of facts (considering the guy couldn't even hit HRs in Vegas).

, and unlike many power hitters he'll figure to hit for a decent average.

Based on what? His mediocre minor league career? The unsustainably high PCL numbers that are largely meaningless in a major league context? The insignificant sample size of MLB ABs where he hit .270?

The Jays don't need 30HR power out of the DH spot this season.

The Jays need as much power as they can get out of the DH spot this season for the best value possible. David Cooper doesn't figure to give you much in that regard.

4. He's young and inexperienced/unreliable.

What guy embarking on their major league career isn't inexperienced/unreliable? Cooper put up dominating numbers in Vegas over a large sample size (show me another guy who had an OBP over .400 over 800+ ABs), and batted .300 in 1/4 of a season - a small sample to be sure - in the majors last year. I'll take my chances with him.

Two things.

#1. If you grant that Cooper is inexperienced and unreliable, why exactly would a team that has contending aspirations want to trust a guy like that with a full-time roster spot when there are superior and more reliable options readily available? Beyond the fact that there is nothing to support that he'll be good, his inexperience is a huge reason not to use him as a primary DH.

#2. Proven scrub Adam Lind had a .392/.448/.664 line in the PCL last year for the Las Vegas 51s. And you're telling me I'm supposed to care about David Cooper putting up .314/.395/.540? If you're going to make a ridiculous argument that PCL numbers equate to MLB success, at least try to keep it consistent with all the players.

5. There are better options available on the market.

Of course there are. Unless you're Mike Trout, there are always better options. If the Jays' have unlimited payroll this year, by all means let's go get an established player. But it's a questions of priorities and cost/benefit.

If the Jays are really trying to go all-in for 2013, it makes absolutely no sense to half-ass this attempt at contention. They need to make the playoffs next season and they need to do everything they possibly can to make that happen. The value of an extra win or two for the Jays right now is so huge that it would be worth it for them to go after an established player for DH (or at least an established lefty masher) rather than hand the job to an unproven, unreliable bat who has never shown much of anything outside of the PCL.

It isn't just the market, though. There are better options in-house too. Platooning Lind with Rajai Davis will get you better production than anything David Cooper projects to do. It would also be preferable due to the reliability factor of two veterans with long track records.

6. A contending team can't afford a guy like Cooper in their lineup.

Nonsense. World Series champions usually have multiple worse offensive players than Cooper in their lineups.

It all depends on what kind of lineup the contending team has. Considering the division the Jays are in and how good their competition is, it makes sense to try to get as good an offense as possible and especially not skimp at the DH position where it is fairly easy to find good bats.

The numbers indicate he has great potential to be a very solid ~.750-.800 OPS DH in the 7th hole for a bargain-basement price of ~500K, allowing the Jays to focus on other areas.

The numbers don't indicate he will be that kind of bat (which, it should be noted, would be a very mediocre one at the DH position), they indicate he could be that kind of bat. Big difference. The Jays need fewer question marks right now, not more.

And if he doesn't work out, they can always try to upgrade at the trade deadline. I really don't understand how objective baseball people can look at that benefit/cost ratio and think he's a trash option.

Or they can just upgrade now and have a full season with a superior bat/platoon pairing that could gain them a win or two. How is that not more preferable than taking a chance on a guy who at best will be a mediocrity?

Anyways, I've said all that I can say on this topic.

You've said more than enough already. We all have. The fact that this thread even exists is exasperating enough. Don't you guys realize what's going on here? It's something bigger than debates about scrubs like David Cooper getting PA at DH.

[Randle McMurphy]

Fine, instead of going for another front of the rotation starter, lets trade/sign a DH.

Is there a reason the Jays can't do both? Is there a reason they can't utilize a platoon that would be far more effective than any one guy like Lind or Cooper?

Brett Lawrie should have never gotten promoted then?

False equivalence. And you should be smart enough to figure out why without me telling you. Don't be disingenuous here.

[S.W.A.N]

Player 1: 3864PA, 69HR (.017/PA), .284/.338/.414/.752
Player 2: 226PA, 6HR (.027/PA), .270/.310/.441/.750

One of these players is purported godsend Melky Cabrera...

... but apparently David Cooper doesn't hit for enough power for a corner outfield or DH spot.

Sure, Cabrera has the name-cachet and uber-young promotion at 20, but who gives a damn? I don't care how the Sniders or Cabreras of the world hit when they were 20, I care about how they hit now. And the evidence is that Cooper hat hit sufficiently well now to hold the DH spot.

One of those players has positional value, one of those players has defensive value, one of those players has a track record and an actual baseline in which he can be relied on to produce at the MLB level. Guess which one of those players is?

Though let's make this clear, Melky Cabrera wouldn't make a good full-time DH either. David Cooper would just make an awful one. I have no idea why he's still being brought up here as a real option on a team like this.

Aim higher, people.

My problem with this statement is that you see to think that there is some option available that hasn't been discussed and we just have to wait to see what AA is going to do.

The reality is that we have pretty much blown our load. The big trade and free agent signing are done. Sure there could be further trades made but the reality is that when it comes to adding salary we are pretty much done.

Also if AA does make more moves its fairly logical that he is going to be looking at starting pitching, not a DH. Pitching is a far greater area of need than another bat.

Sure its possible that we combing a prospect and a contract like Lind and get an upgrade but its a far greater likely-hood that our DH spots gets filled from within the current Roster....

In my mind that means either going to a platoon with Lind and one of our Outfielder types or going with Cooper.

Personally I see the first option being the most realistic scenario depending on how much of a stats geek we end up with for a manager because it gives up the best possible statistical advantage.

[Randle McMurphy]

My problem with this statement is that you see to think that there is some option available that hasn't been discussed and we just have to wait to see what AA is going to do.

There is not just some options available, there are a great many options available that would be better than the OP's suggestion (whether we're talking about a full-time DH or a platoon pairing). This has been repeated numerous times in this thread.

The reality is that we have pretty much blown our load. The big trade and free agent signing are done. Sure there could be further trades made but the reality is that when it comes to adding salary we are pretty much done.

Not that it would take a significant amount of money to upgrade the position (especially if you platooned), but you know this how and are basing it on what?

Also if AA does make more moves its fairly logical that he is going to be looking at starting pitching, not a DH. Pitching is a far greater area of need than another bat.

Both areas remain needs and there is absolutely no reason both needs couldn't be addressed by this team. In fact, they very much should be if they want to give themselves their best chance at contention.

Sure its possible that we combing a prospect and a contract like Lind and get an upgrade but its a far greater likely-hood that our DH spots gets filled from within the current Roster....

Except you're basing this on exactly nothing. Nobody had any idea they would make that trade, nobody had any idea they would sign Melky Cabrera 3 days later, and nobody has any idea how much money they have left to spend (if any) and what they're going to do from here.

Personally I see the first option being the most realistic scenario depending on how much of a stats geek we end up with for a manager because it gives up the best possible statistical advantage.

I agree. If they are forced into going cheap for the DH position, a platoon is exactly what they should do (which, again, still means no David Cooper in a prominent role).