Can David Cooper be that 1B/DH that we're looking for

baulderdash77 · Post #1 » by **baulderdash77** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:06 pm

One of the great bright spots last year was David Cooper's emergence before he got injured. Remember that Adam Lind had played himself out of the lineup and Cooper was lighting it up for us with his consistent play. There was no way that Lind finishes the season last year if Cooper didn't tweak that back.

I'd like to see him back this year as our 1B/DH along with EE. We can use Lind off the bench as a pinch hitter for the season in his walk year. As a lefty Cooper can hit #5 in the order before Lawrie to give us good balance.

His line last year was .300/.324/.465

Bill James projection for this year is .278/.343/.434. We could certainly do worse and for 450k he's amazing value.

Let's remember some of the great things that Coop did for us before you say no.
http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=23874465&c_id=mlb
http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=23610631&c_id=mlb

dagger · Post #2 » by **dagger** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:08 pm

He's amazing value, but in my view, he's not an everyday hitter or a particularly good fielder.

The_Hater · Post #3 » by **The_Hater** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:20 pm

What's Bill James projection for Lind? I can't imagine that it's much different than the .777 that you just posted for Cooper.

I'm likely in the huge minority but I think if you use Lind in a strict platoon that you have a decent enough hitter there. His platoon splits have always been massive but manager after manager has given him far too many AB's against LHP which has killed his overall numbers. He hit much better in the 2nd half of the season last year after coming back from the minors too.

I'm all for upgrading on him but of the players that remain in the organization I think he's by far the best option. And Davis is still here to play platoon partner. Use them in a strict platoon and I think you'll get an 800-825 OPS. And if doesn't work out, trading for a DH type next summer shouldn't be a difficult proposition.

Waylon Mercy · Post #4 » by **Waylon Mercy** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:20 pm

You come all the way this far...You're this close you go for the kill and get somebody way more
experienced and polished then Cooper especially as an everyday player.

After this week I think the fanbase should have way higher expectations for our future 1B/DH

Tyrone Slothrop · Post #5 » by **Tyrone Slothrop** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:22 pm

"Lighting it up" is a bit of an exaggeration, but he wouldn't be terrible as a platoon partner with someone who can hit left-handed pitcher. If AA can somehow turn Lind into a somewhat useful piece (and therefore shed his contract), and then sign Jonny Gomes, you could do worse than a Cooper/Gomes platoon. People need to look at Jonny Gomes' splits. He is ridiculous against left-handed pitching.

mikero · Post #6 » by **mikero** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:30 pm

I don't think the Jays necessarily need a slugger at DH. With all the speed on the team now, a high average / gap-to-gap type hitter could be a better option.

Deadpool_X · Post #7 » by **Deadpool_X** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:32 pm

Solid DH.

We know hes going to hit around .300 which is great; you don't need him to do much, but get on base. I would like to package Lind and a Catcher and maybe something else for a 2nd baseman. If we did get an above average 2nd baseman we would be pretty solid all around.

Reyes (ss)
Lowrie (3rd)
Bautista (RF)
E5 (1st)
Cabrera (LF)
Rasmus (CF)
Cooper (DH)
(2nd)
D'arnuad (C)

I just don't know whos available.

Randle McMurphy · Post #8 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:36 pm

No, David Cooper has no business starting for a MLB team, let alone one that has aspirations of contending in the toughest division in baseball.

Deadpool_X · Post #9 » by **Deadpool_X** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:45 pm

Randle McMurphy wrote:No, David Cooper has no business starting for a MLB team, let alone one that has aspirations of contending in the toughest division in baseball.

Are you serious right now? You do realise the guy won a batting title in the minors, and is one of the best pure hitters around right? The guy is young, hits gap to gap and easily will give you .300 avg. What else can you ask for in a DH?? I just want guys in the bottom of the order that will get on base and not kill rallies.

Tyrone Slothrop · Post #10 » by **Tyrone Slothrop** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:49 pm

Cweb wrote:
Randle McMurphy wrote:No, David Cooper has no business starting for a MLB team, let alone one that has aspirations of contending in the toughest division in baseball.

Are you serious right now? You do realise the guy won a batting title in the minors, and is one of the best pure hitters around right? The guy is young, hits gap to gap and easily will give you .300 avg. What else can you ask for in a DH?? I just want guys in the bottom of the order that will get on base and not kill rallies.

Are you serious right now???

Lateral Quicks · Post #11 » by **Lateral Quicks** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:50 pm

Yes, as a DH he's fine; 1B, his fielding isn't good enough. They don't need another huge power bat. Cooper figures to have a decent OBP and hit his fair share of doubles. There's nothing wrong with that out of the 7-hole in the lineup.

Waylon Mercy · Post #12 » by **Waylon Mercy** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:54 pm

Randle McMurphy wrote:No, David Cooper has no business starting for a MLB team, let alone one that has aspirations of contending in the toughest division in baseball.

This

According to Vegas we're the 4th favorite to win the World Series now still have a lot skeptics
around baseball who don't think we're a playoff lock...

And people want to roll with David Cooper and are pointing to a minuscule sample size and
actually arguing about getting some one better unreal :nonono:

Deadpool_X · Post #13 » by **Deadpool_X** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:00 pm

Waylon Mercy wrote:
Randle McMurphy wrote:No, David Cooper has no business starting for a MLB team, let alone one that has aspirations of contending in the toughest division in baseball.

This

According to Vegas we're the 4th favorite to win the World Series now still have a lot skeptics
around baseball who don't think we're a playoff lock...

And people want to roll with David Cooper and are pointing to a minuscule sample size and
actually arguing about getting some one better unreal

This guy has proven he can hit at all levels. If we can get a great hitter, you obviously go out and do it. Im not saying not to, but I would much rather go out and get a stud 2nd baseman or another elite starter.

Randle McMurphy · Post #14 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:04 pm

Cweb wrote:Are you serious right now?

As serious as I have to be.

You do realise the guy won a batting title in the minors, and is one of the best pure hitters around right?

Wow, how special. A minor league batting title in the PCL. And "one of the best pure hitters around," you say? How could he fail?

The guy is young, hits gap to gap and easily will give you .300 avg.

There were only 25 qualified hitters in the majors that hit for a .300 AVG in 2012. Nobody on the current Jays roster even has a career .300 AVG (including the two former batting champs, Reyes and Cabrera, that the Jays just acquired). But yeah, David Cooper of all people, who struggled through the minors until he got to the PCL, is going to be the guy that gets it done. Future superstar in the making this guy...the next Prince Fielder.

What else can you ask for in a DH?? I just want guys in the bottom of the order that will get on base and not kill rallies.

Out of a DH on a contending team, you should want proven MLB production (which Cooper doesn't bring...he's not even a real prospect) and actual power (which Cooper doesn't have...he couldn't even hit home runs in freaking Vegas). I'd rather use the shell of Lyle Overbay than having David Cooper fill any kind of a significant role on the Jays in 2013.

Didn't we already go through this entire discussion last season? Enough of bringing up David Cooper's name as if he's somehow relevant to the organization at all, especially now when winning actually seems to be a priority.

Tyrone Slothrop · Post #15 » by **Tyrone Slothrop** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:04 pm

Cweb wrote:This guy has proven he can hit at all levels. If we can get a great hitter, you obviously go out and do it. Im not saying not to, but I would much rather go out and get a stud 2nd baseman or another elite starter.

He's proven he can hit in Las Vegas. So did Yan Gomes. He fared pretty well against righties in a small sample size in the big leagues, but there is no way he should be a full-time DH.

That being said, the Blue Jays' payroll is unlikely to get much higher, so the fantasy of a big-time slugger as the new DH are very unlikely. If the Jays can find a good right-handed bat to platoon at DH, Cooper wouldn't be the worst choice as a platoon. Lind would be a better choice, but AA may look to shed his salary in order to add another piece.

Lateral Quicks · Post #16 » by **Lateral Quicks** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:05 pm

Waylon Mercy wrote:
Randle McMurphy wrote:No, David Cooper has no business starting for a MLB team, let alone one that has aspirations of contending in the toughest division in baseball.

This

According to Vegas we're the 4th favorite to win the World Series now still have a lot skeptics
around baseball who don't think we're a playoff lock...

And people want to roll with David Cooper and are pointing to a minuscule sample size and
actually arguing about getting some one better unreal

The reality is that, this offseason aside, the Jays don't have infinite resources. Another lefty power bat isn't going to come cheap, whether that's in terms of tradeable assets or new dollars towards team salary. Many (not all obviously) of the same people calling for another lefty bat are also calling for them to go out and sign/trade for Greinke/King Felix/etc to bolster the rotation. It's totally unrealistic unless you expect Rogers to pony up significantly more than $120M.

As long as he doesn't have to field, David Cooper is a perfectly fine option to man DH in the bottom third of the order. The sample size I'm looking at is 2+ years of ~.950 OPS domination in Vegas, coupled with a career .750 OPS in the major leagues. He's 25 and entering the prime of his career. We don't need Bautista's up and down the lineup.

Tyrone Slothrop · Post #17 » by **Tyrone Slothrop** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:06 pm

Let's give Cooper a month in Buffalo to see if his "Minor league domination" continues in a place that isn't Las Vegas.

Deadpool_X · Post #18 » by **Deadpool_X** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:11 pm

Randle McMurphy wrote:
Cweb wrote:Are you serious right now?

As serious as I have to be.

You do realise the guy won a batting title in the minors, and is one of the best pure hitters around right?

Wow, how special. A minor league batting title in the PCL. And "one of the best pure hitters around," you say? How could he fail?

The guy is young, hits gap to gap and easily will give you .300 avg.

There were only 25 qualified hitters in the majors that hit for a .300 AVG in 2012. Nobody on the current Jays roster even has a career .300 AVG (including the two former batting champs, Reyes and Cabrera, that the Jays just acquired). But yeah, David Cooper of all people, who struggled through the minors until he got to the PCL, is going to be the guy that gets it done. Future superstar in the making this guy...the next Prince Fielder.

What else can you ask for in a DH?? I just want guys in the bottom of the order that will get on base and not kill rallies.

Out of a DH on a contending team, you should want proven MLB production (which Cooper doesn't bring...he's not even a real prospect) and actual power (which Cooper doesn't have...he couldn't even hit home runs in freaking Vegas).

Didn't we already go through this entire discussion last season? Enough of bringing up David Cooper's name as if he's somehow relevant to the organization at all, especially now when winning actually seems to be a priority.

wow, abrasive much? I think you are over reacting a bit. He hit while he was here before he hurt his back, and has showed good ability. Maybe you typed this before you saw my other post, but I do agree with you, we should target a better overall hitter. But I would much rather spend our money (if we can only choose one or two positions) on a full time, legit 2nd baseman or another starter.

Lateral Quicks · Post #19 » by **Lateral Quicks** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:14 pm

Tyrone Slothrop wrote:Let's give Cooper a month in Buffalo to see if his "Minor league domination" continues in a place that isn't Las Vegas.

I would point out that Cooper has comparable OPS numbers over 800 Vegas ABs to Travis Snider, whom 99% of folks on this board anointed the second coming and were devastated when he was traded. And so far in their respective major league careers, Cooper has a higher OPS (obviously in a smaller sample size). And unlike Travis, he doesn't strike out a tonne.

I don't understand the Cooper hate. Sure he can't run, he can't field, he can't hit for power, but there is enough evidence he can put up a decent OPS. Where is it written that DH's must hit 30+ HRs?

Randle McMurphy · Post #20 » by **Randle McMurphy** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:14 pm

Who is anybody here to say what resources the Jays have available at this point? Nobody had a clue they'd make the trade they did and take on that much salary. Nobody had a clue they'd sign Melky immediately after that. There's really no reason not to at least hope the Jays will get a superior option at DH than what they have. If they're going all-in, go all-in and don't half-ass this (and keep David Cooper and players of his ilk far away from any kind of responsibility).