RealGM

I'm not arguing Cooper is ideal, but rather fits this model. We need a bat for 6th spot and below. I see no problem with giving Cooper that spot. I believe he can be worth about 1-2 fWAR as a full season DH, as last year without his fielding he was almost on pace for a 1 fWAR season as DH/1B.

25 games in the field made him lose 3.1 runs... also his baserunning won't be as bad this time around, as he made some stupid decisions which he never made in AAA. I think he could do more for us at DH this year than Lind did in his last 2.

Ty for typing that out Randle. I really did not feel like putting the time into typing out a long response to so many bad and irrelevant points.

Hendrix wrote:Ty for typing that out Randle. I really did not feel like putting the time into typing out a long response to so many bad and irrelevant points.

Bashing other peoples opinions, that's cool. Why don't we ban everybody who goes against conventional perceived logic so everybody just has a circle jerk all day every day.

Argue the point or don't, I really don't care. Don't call it irrelevant because you obviously care somewhat.

flatjacket1 wrote:

Hendrix wrote:Ty for typing that out Randle. I really did not feel like putting the time into typing out a long response to so many bad and irrelevant points.

Bashing other peoples opinions, that's cool. Why don't we ban everybody who goes against conventional perceived logic so everybody just has a circle jerk all day every day.

Argue the point or don't, I really don't care. Don't call it irrelevant because you obviously care somewhat.

Umm... I was talking about his response to 'lateral quicks'. And, 'lateral quicks' response was a response to me that contanined a while bunch of points that were irrelevant to the topic at hand, and had nothing to do with anything I've said in this thread. I've already spent a ton of time 'arguing points' in this thread.

And, randomly bringing up your projections of Coopers HR total vs. Melky's, or talking about Fielding when we're discussing DH, are irrelevant points.

Hendrix wrote:Ty for typing that out Randle. I really did not feel like putting the time into typing out a long response to so many bad and irrelevant points.

Great argument Hendrix. Thank you for coming down from your high horse to participate. No doubt you have a front office job what with your otherwordly baseball acumen.

Wow... these Raptor board posters...

Lateral Quicks wrote:Great argument Hendrix. Thank you for coming down from your high horse to participate. No doubt you have a front office job what with your otherwordly baseball acumen.

Wow... these Raptor board posters...

I've made quite few posts in this thread, and about 90% of your response to my post had nothing to do with anything I've said in this thread. You addressed a bunch of points, that I never made, like his fielding while playing DH. My argument against him had very little to do with what you posted. If you would like to respond to one of my arguments, then I have no problem rebutting. But, I have no interest in countering against things I've never said or irrelevant projections of HR totals.

Lateral Quicks wrote:

Hendrix wrote:Ty for typing that out Randle. I really did not feel like putting the time into typing out a long response to so many bad and irrelevant points.

Great argument Hendrix. Thank you for coming down from your high horse to participate. No doubt you have a front office job what with your otherwordly baseball acumen.

Wow... these Raptor board posters...

something tells me, considering you joined in 02, that you were also one of "these raptor board posters"

The hate Cooper gets is ridiculous. Just because he has no chin doesn't mean he is a complete scrub. I'm not saying he is a great solution at DH but he gets paid 400k vs Lind's 5 Mill for similar production OPS of 700+. I'd gladly take him over Lind anyday of the week. A guy in the bottom of the lineup who won't be a rally killer (Cough Lind) making 400k could be useful. I just want to get rid of Lind at this point. The guy had 2 and a half years of sucking with no work ethic (has said to never workout)

I don't know why so much time is invested in arguing about David **** Cooper.

You don't think that after all these moves and all this money that Rogers has taken on, they won't pony up 5 million (at most) for a platoon partner for Lind? Lind/Gomes is a MUCH better option than Cooper full time.

Garmfay wrote:The hate Cooper gets is ridiculous. Just because he has no chin doesn't mean he is a complete scrub. I'm not saying he is a great solution at DH but he gets paid 400k vs Lind's 5 Mill for similar production OPS of 700+. I'd gladly take him over Lind anyday of the week. A guy in the bottom of the lineup who won't be a rally killer (Cough Lind) making 400k could be useful. I just want to get rid of Lind at this point. The guy had 2 and a half years of sucking with no work ethic (has said to never workout)

Okay, seriously, why do Cooper's supporters keep pointing out that he is cheaper than Lind? It's a really silly point, because the Jays are paying Lind either way.

And don't tell me you think someone will trade for Lind without the Jays eating that money. If he is really worse than David Cooper, why would someone want him exactly? If someone wanted him for free he would be gone by now.

The only potential savings actually available here would be from keeping Cooper down in AAA, because then you only pay him the minor league rate.

Modern_epic wrote:

Garmfay wrote:The hate Cooper gets is ridiculous. Just because he has no chin doesn't mean he is a complete scrub. I'm not saying he is a great solution at DH but he gets paid 400k vs Lind's 5 Mill for similar production OPS of 700+. I'd gladly take him over Lind anyday of the week. A guy in the bottom of the lineup who won't be a rally killer (Cough Lind) making 400k could be useful. I just want to get rid of Lind at this point. The guy had 2 and a half years of sucking with no work ethic (has said to never workout)

Okay, seriously, why do Cooper's supporters keep pointing out that he is cheaper than Lind? It's a really silly point, because the Jays are paying Lind either way.

And don't tell me you think someone will trade for Lind without the Jays eating that money. If he is really worse than David Cooper, why would someone want him exactly? If someone wanted him for free he would be gone by now.

The only potential savings actually available here would be from keeping Cooper down in AAA, because then you only pay him the minor league rate.

Thats the **** point. At some point you just have to cut bait with the guy. You don't keep him in because he gets paid. Cooper is better for the team than Lind.

Modern_epic wrote:

Garmfay wrote:The hate Cooper gets is ridiculous. Just because he has no chin doesn't mean he is a complete scrub. I'm not saying he is a great solution at DH but he gets paid 400k vs Lind's 5 Mill for similar production OPS of 700+. I'd gladly take him over Lind anyday of the week. A guy in the bottom of the lineup who won't be a rally killer (Cough Lind) making 400k could be useful. I just want to get rid of Lind at this point. The guy had 2 and a half years of sucking with no work ethic (has said to never workout)

Okay, seriously, why do Cooper's supporters keep pointing out that he is cheaper than Lind? It's a really silly point, because the Jays are paying Lind either way.

And don't tell me you think someone will trade for Lind without the Jays eating that money. If he is really worse than David Cooper, why would someone want him exactly? If someone wanted him for free he would be gone by now.

The only potential savings actually available here would be from keeping Cooper down in AAA, because then you only pay him the minor league rate.

Because painting this as an either/or dilemma between these two poor options (which it absolutely isn't) is the only way this thread's existence can actually be justified.

We add Jose Reyes, Mark Buehrle, Josh Johnson, and Melky Cabrera...yet here we are discussing Adam Lind vs. David Cooper.

I'd like to sign Berkman. He would be the perfect DH for us. A switch hitter with power and who can take walks. He can also give you a good amount of games at LF/RF and 1B.

Damn, just remembered both Lind and Hill turned to complete **** after we hired Murphy. Maybe Lind can bounce back like Hill did. Just makes no sense how a guy can drop off that far.

Garmfay wrote:

Modern_epic wrote:

Garmfay wrote:The hate Cooper gets is ridiculous. Just because he has no chin doesn't mean he is a complete scrub. I'm not saying he is a great solution at DH but he gets paid 400k vs Lind's 5 Mill for similar production OPS of 700+. I'd gladly take him over Lind anyday of the week. A guy in the bottom of the lineup who won't be a rally killer (Cough Lind) making 400k could be useful. I just want to get rid of Lind at this point. The guy had 2 and a half years of sucking with no work ethic (has said to never workout)

Okay, seriously, why do Cooper's supporters keep pointing out that he is cheaper than Lind? It's a really silly point, because the Jays are paying Lind either way.

And don't tell me you think someone will trade for Lind without the Jays eating that money. If he is really worse than David Cooper, why would someone want him exactly? If someone wanted him for free he would be gone by now.

The only potential savings actually available here would be from keeping Cooper down in AAA, because then you only pay him the minor league rate.

Thats the **** point. At some point you just have to cut bait with the guy. You don't keep him in because he gets paid. Cooper is better for the team than Lind.

Garmfay wrote:Thats the **** point. At some point you just have to cut bait with the guy. You don't keep him in because he gets paid. Cooper is better for the team than Lind.

Debateable. 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other. Some people prefer Lind because he's mashed at the MLB level, others people prefer Cooper because he mashed in AAA and is more of an unknown right now. (Closer to the point, because he's not Adam Lind).

At the end of the day, they're pretty much the same player. Both would likely put up a 750-800 ops against RHP in a strict platoon. Both of them have almost zero defensive value. Both of them should stay far away from any LHP and both would be considered substandard DH's for any club, not just one that wants to contend.

Hopefully we add somebody else and this debate becomes a moot point in the coming months.

I didn't read this whole thread, so I'm not sure what the general consesus on Coop is, but here's what I think.

As far as picking from Coop vs Lind, I'd rather not. Lind has been hot garbage as of the late few years, and although he showed glimpses of being a decent hitter after his return from AAA he's still going to struggle mightily against lefties. David Cooper doesn't really have a long enough track record in the MLB. He played 45 games last year, and wasn't overly impressive. His minor league track record shows he can hit, but it's the PCL. Everyone can.

Both are terrible runners with Cooper probably being even slower, I'm pretty sure I can field better at 1b then the both of them combined. You have to go with Lind I think because he actually posted a 3.5+ WAR season which is not easy to do, unless you can get something better that is.

45ish games is just too little for me to read into Coopers stats. I'll let the coaches decide, because I'm sure AA/murphy have a good idea on Cooper and if he's a MLB player or not

MikeM wrote:Damn, just remembered both Lind and Hill turned to complete **** after we hired Murphy.

If I remember correctly, Murphy was promoted to hitting coach right before Lind and Hill started sucking, but he was still around before then -- I think he held the first base coaching job, but was basically a second hitting coach. So I think maybe Tenace leaving hurt more than Murphy being there.

a) glad to see some crazy threads can exist here, not just on the raps board lol
b) there are months and months til the season begins... let's be patient before we assume it's one/either of these guys for that slot
c) i like the idea of Berkman myself... great bat to fill out our roster... and I think we could get him enough fielding time to keep him from whining about DH'ing lol