ST: Red Sox @ Blue Jays - July 21-24

[whysoserious]

The tailspin started when Lawrie went down and the injuries coincided with a rough schedule, poor results are expected it has nothing to do with pressure and rising to the occasion, Baseball doesn't work that way

Why do some teams hang tough through injuries? Why do other teams survive rough parts of the schedule?

If this team was even able to survive by playing .500 over the last little while then we'd be in much better shape. The fact is injuries played a role, but this teams execution, mental toughness is sorely lacking.

Still, as I think you pointed out earlier, they are still 3 (now 4) games out of first in the division and that isn't a bad spot to be in. But getting certain guys back from injury doesn't solve our execution issues.

The biggest problem with this organization is player development. Forget high draft choices making the big leagues and what not, good organizations have quality players in their minor leagues that come up and back fill during injury periods. We're calling up guys that still can't execute. Over the past year and a half, we've had more stretches of poor play than good play. Other than one month and a 10 game win streak, when has this group actually played well?

Over the last 10 years, these are the guys off the top of my head that have come up through the Jays organization to actually play for any lenght of time - Janssen, Romero, Lind, JPA, McGowan, Morrow (including him since he was acquired very young). That's about it though I'm sure I'm forgetting some but that's not a good list of homegrown talent to build a franchise around.

AA did a good job getting the Bautista's and EE's of the world, even Lawrie but they haven't drafted well and developed those guys. Even some of the prospects we traded aren't developing within other organizations fully. Maybe we're just not that good at scouting?

Lots of issues with this organization.

[Fairview4Life]

The Jays have been drafting very young players since AA was made GM, and had very little in the pipeline prior to that. That is why all of the best prospects are in AA or lower (well, that and the fact they are **** baseball prospects). That and the Dickey trade (and maybe Henderson Alvarez with the Marlins too). At the same time, Stroman and Hutchison (although he was in the 09 draft) were developed and are helping the team now.

This mental fortitude garbage needs to be put to bed though. The Jays can't handle injuries because they tied up their money in a small number of high priced players and when those guys got hurt just as the schedule turned more difficult, they are not spending any more to replace them. They did not have a large number of prospects waiting in the wings because the cupboard was pretty bare when they switched to drafting predominantly boom/bust high school kids. Several of which actually look like pretty decent prospects. This isn't rocket science and doesn't require a psychology degree. AA took a shot with a weakish looking division last year. Playing it slower sure seems like better idea at the moment, but the Jays are actually in the hunt for the playoffs again, so **** that too.

Losing and rebuilding is very easy. At some point, you do actually need to try and win some games, or else you will start having bags of poop mysteriously show up in your mail. Bitching about how and when the Jays tried to start winning makes all kinds of sense. Bitching about the teams mental fortitude or not developing players (we can certainly talk about that in 3 more years) is nonsense.

[dagger]

Shi Davidi reporting via "industry sources" that Goins and Sanchez are being promoted today. Also Steve Delabar had a solid two inning outing in Buffalo, so maybe he's getting it together, finally.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/bl ... n-tuesday/

[whysoserious]

I'm not arguing for the sake of blowing it up or anything. But can we not acknowledge the horrible player development over the last 10 years, a lot prior to AA and some during his time.

That is why we're probably struggling the most through this injury stretch. There aren't a lot of quality homegrown talent from this organization over a 10 year period and there aren't even average players coming up just to even do the right things. Some of these guys can't even lay down a bunt?

There's a significant issue (and IMO it's probably the biggest) with the development all the way through our system, no?

[Fairview4Life]

I'm not arguing for the sake of blowing it up or anything. But can we not acknowledge the horrible player development over the last 10 years, a lot prior to AA and some during his time.

That is why we're probably struggling the most through this injury stretch. There aren't a lot of quality homegrown talent from this organization over a 10 year period and there aren't even average players coming up just to even do the right things. Some of these guys can't even lay down a bunt?

There's a significant issue (and IMO it's probably the biggest) with the development all the way through our system, no?

They 'system' was overhauled in 2010. The scouting department's budget and man power was dramatically increased, and the Jays started throwing money at IFA's and into the draft. Christ, the Jays were one of the teams that caused MLB to change the draft and compensation rules. So talking about the last 10 years is pretty much meaningless. The Jays pushed a bunch of higher level prospect chips into trades last year, also diminishing the players available to the club this year. For example, D'Arnaud (do the Jays get the development rights for him, or do the Phillies?) pretty much sucked in the majors earlier this year, but he'd be in the bigs right now if he was still with the Jays. Syndergaard might have been too. And Henderson Valley Eggs and his ground balls would be in the rotation for sure, giving us 3 homegrown pitchers. In the AL East no less. Instead we moved those guys for better players. So we don't get to crow about our prospect development, but we do get to watch a team in the hunt for a playoff spot this year.

In 3 years we will probably be able to better judge how the Jays drafting and development process has worked out, assuming we don't trade even more guys for currently better players.

This is one of the concerns people like Schad had for the Marlins and Dickey moves last year though. The gamble left the Jays fairly unable to fill injuries internally, since most of the remaining prospects were in the lower minors, since they were all around 12 years old at the time. This was a known thing, and unfortunately, luck has not worked in the Jays favour. Guys with some injury history (and some without any) have gotten hurt.

[Back2back2back]

The tailspin started when Lawrie went down and the injuries coincided with a rough schedule, poor results are expected it has nothing to do with pressure and rising to the occasion, Baseball doesn't work that way

Why do some teams hang tough through injuries? Why do other teams survive rough parts of the schedule?

If this team was even able to survive by playing .500 over the last little while then we'd be in much better shape. The fact is injuries played a role, but this teams execution, mental toughness is sorely lacking.

Still, as I think you pointed out earlier, they are still 3 (now 4) games out of first in the division and that isn't a bad spot to be in. But getting certain guys back from injury doesn't solve our execution issues.

The biggest problem with this organization is player development. Forget high draft choices making the big leagues and what not, good organizations have quality players in their minor leagues that come up and back fill during injury periods. We're calling up guys that still can't execute. Over the past year and a half, we've had more stretches of poor play than good play. Other than one month and a 10 game win streak, when has this group actually played well?

Over the last 10 years, these are the guys off the top of my head that have come up through the Jays organization to actually play for any lenght of time - Janssen, Romero, Lind, JPA, McGowan, Morrow (including him since he was acquired very young). That's about it though I'm sure I'm forgetting some but that's not a good list of homegrown talent to build a franchise around.

AA did a good job getting the Bautista's and EE's of the world, even Lawrie but they haven't drafted well and developed those guys. Even some of the prospects we traded aren't developing within other organizations fully. Maybe we're just not that good at scouting?

Lots of issues with this organization.

Well said. I agree on all points.

[Back2back2back]

The Jays have been drafting very young players since AA was made GM, and had very little in the pipeline prior to that. That is why all of the best prospects are in AA or lower (well, that and the fact they are **** baseball prospects). That and the Dickey trade (and maybe Henderson Alvarez with the Marlins too). At the same time, Stroman and Hutchison (although he was in the 09 draft) were developed and are helping the team now.

This mental fortitude garbage needs to be put to bed though. The Jays can't handle injuries because they tied up their money in a small number of high priced players and when those guys got hurt just as the schedule turned more difficult, they are not spending any more to replace them. They did not have a large number of prospects waiting in the wings because the cupboard was pretty bare when they switched to drafting predominantly boom/bust high school kids. Several of which actually look like pretty decent prospects. This isn't rocket science and doesn't require a psychology degree. AA took a shot with a weakish looking division last year. Playing it slower sure seems like better idea at the moment, but the Jays are actually in the hunt for the playoffs again, so **** that too.

Losing and rebuilding is very easy. At some point, you do actually need to try and win some games, or else you will start having bags of poop mysteriously show up in your mail. Bitching about how and when the Jays tried to start winning makes all kinds of sense. Bitching about the teams mental fortitude or not developing players (we can certainly talk about that in 3 more years) is nonsense.

It maybe nonsense to you Fairview4Life, but not to others. What's wrong with questioning the mental fortitude of this team, and not being able to develop players??

With this organization's track record of trading prospects for Major league ready players, you won't have to wait for 3 years anyways.

Lets face it. This team isn't going anywhere unless there is change from the top of this organization.

[Fairview4Life]

It maybe nonsense to you Fairview4Life, but not to others. What's wrong with questioning the mental fortitude of this team, and not being able to develop players??

The Jays have been drafting very young players since AA was made GM, and had very little in the pipeline prior to that. That is why all of the best prospects are in AA or lower (well, that and the fact they are **** baseball prospects). That and the Dickey trade (and maybe Henderson Alvarez with the Marlins too). At the same time, Stroman and Hutchison (although he was in the 09 draft) were developed and are helping the team now.

This mental fortitude garbage needs to be put to bed though. The Jays can't handle injuries because they tied up their money in a small number of high priced players and when those guys got hurt just as the schedule turned more difficult, they are not spending any more to replace them. They did not have a large number of prospects waiting in the wings because the cupboard was pretty bare when they switched to drafting predominantly boom/bust high school kids. Several of which actually look like pretty decent prospects. This isn't rocket science and doesn't require a psychology degree. AA took a shot with a weakish looking division last year. Playing it slower sure seems like better idea at the moment, but the Jays are actually in the hunt for the playoffs again, so **** that too.

Losing and rebuilding is very easy. At some point, you do actually need to try and win some games, or else you will start having bags of poop mysteriously show up in your mail. Bitching about how and when the Jays tried to start winning makes all kinds of sense. Bitching about the teams mental fortitude or not developing players (we can certainly talk about that in 3 more years) is nonsense.

[Back2back2back]

Shi Davidi reporting via "industry sources" that Goins and Sanchez are being promoted today. Also Steve Delabar had a solid two inning outing in Buffalo, so maybe he's getting it together, finally.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/bl ... n-tuesday/

This serves no purpose other than the fact AA can't swing a deal and this team can't add to the payroll.

I just hope to God they don't screw this kid Sanchez by bringing him up this early.

[Lateral Quicks]

"Wanting it" has very little to do with performance, but to say mental state/toughness in general has nothing to do with the performance of a human being regardless of what they're doing is absurd and empirically false.

It's not like we have to go far back to see an example of this in baseball with the Red Sox sudden turnaround. Under Valentine it was a terrible work environment and the results showed.

[RapsFanInVA]

"Wanting it" has very little to do with performance, but to say mental state/toughness in general has nothing to do with the performance of a human being regardless of what they're doing is absurd and empirically false.

It's not like we have to go far back to see an example of this in baseball with the Red Sox sudden turnaround. Under Valentine it was a terrible work environment and the results showed.

So replacing him with John Farrell created a thriving work environment, propelling the Red Sox to the World Series. Gee, why didn't that happen when Farrell was with us?

[Lateral Quicks]

"Wanting it" has very little to do with performance, but to say mental state/toughness in general has nothing to do with the performance of a human being regardless of what they're doing is absurd and empirically false.

It's not like we have to go far back to see an example of this in baseball with the Red Sox sudden turnaround. Under Valentine it was a terrible work environment and the results showed.

So replacing him with John Farrell created a thriving work environment, propelling the Red Sox to the World Series. Gee, why didn't that happen when Farrell was with us?

Precisely. Why did so many players perform so horribly under Valentine, only to be light-years better - in many cases posting personal bests - the very next year under Farrell? Are you we going to chock that up entirely due to simple variation from year to year, or do we think work environment played a role? I'm going to go with what the players actually said about it, which is that they hated playing for Valentine and that's why their results suffered so miserably.

It didn't happen when Farrell managed us because the Red Sox had a better team to begin with.

[Fairview4Life]

So I guess Farrell's magic isn't working this year. That's too bad for the Red Sox.

[Raps_Swingman]

That game was a steamy pile of hot garbage. The nice thing is though that was the best Red Sox pitcher we face all series, I hate Lackey though. Such a diva.

Go take the next 3 and move on. We can't get swept or lose 3 of 4. This team is too fragile right now.

[Schad]

Precisely. Why did so many players perform so horribly under Valentine, only to be light-years better - in many cases posting personal bests - the very next year under Farrell? Are you we going to chock that up entirely due to simple variation from year to year, or do we think work environment played a role? I'm going to go with what the players actually said about it, which is that they hated playing for Valentine and that's why their results suffered so miserably.

And yet a great many of those players have seen their results fall off considerably this season, almost as if 2013 was something of a perfect storm of players having peak performances at the same time rather than Farrell turning them into motivated Winners.

[Back2back2back]

I think everything needs to go well for a team to win a championship in this league. From the manager to the players, to staying healthy and having players/coaches who can motivate and have a plan of attack, and who are unselfish.

Losing Elsbury to the Yankees didn't help Boston either. They also lost Victorino to injury.

Boston has won 5 in a row and are 8-2 in their last 10 games. 3.5 game behind our beloved Blue Jays. They must be doing something right.

[Schad]

I think everything needs to go well for a team to win a championship in this league. From the manager to the players, to staying healthy and having players/coaches who can motivate and have a plan of attack, and who are unselfish.

Losing Elsbury to the Yankees didn't help Boston either. They also lost Victorino to injury.

Boston has won 5 in a row and are 8-2 in their last 10 games. 3.5 game behind our beloved Blue Jays. They must be doing something right.

You're citing favourably the fact that such a collection of winners is only 3.5 games behind the spineless-can't-win-anything-ever Jays. They've won 5 in a row; they also lost ten in a row at one point. It's almost as if baseball players are an inconsistent breed.

As for losing Ellsbury/Victorino's injury: no ****. That's rather much the point that people are making, that Winneryness is driven by talent/player results, rather than the other way around.

[s e n s i]

Why do some teams hang tough through injuries? Why do other teams survive rough parts of the schedule?

like who? and besides, hang tough? 3-4 games back of the division or WC spot with ten weeks to play doesn't qualify as hanging in tough after brutally enduring the toughest part of the schedule with our 4, 5 and 6 hitters on the DL? sounds like your expectations of our supposedly "mentally fragile" replacement-level players are just too high

[Back2back2back]

Winneryness?

Is that even a word?

and what's with the vulgar and profane use of language and response towards a member here? and you call yourself a forum moderator?

[tecumseh18]

Winneryness?

Is that even a word?

and what's with the vulgar and profane use of language and response towards a member here? and you call yourself a forum moderator?

Hmm, clueless self-righteousness? It's like the latest incarnation of Contender has a twin.

You're quite correct - "winneryness" is not a word. But it should be.