Can we get someone better than Mike Wilner?

[Randle McMurphy]

Word salad. Those 'facts' aren't as much facts as they are a waste of everyone's time.

He's moved on from baiting to a different kind of red herring. I don't think anybody would deny that confidence is a major part of success in sports or anything else. But what that has to do with the fact that managers aren't worth very much, can't be largely differentiated from each other (despite baseless claims that a select few somehow have some kind of "master motivational" ability), and are appropriately valued as such by MLB teams, I'm not exactly sure.

[C Court]

Trilogy, good post. No doubt the individual nature of baseball makes it different than hockey or football.

But read a little about Joe Maddon and these often are mentioned as his motivating/management techniques.

Not every manager can be Maddon. But every manager must command the respect of his players. I don't see that with Gibbons. Who knows, a stronger Gibbons might have been able to control Lawrie and make him a better ball player.

Rewind to what started this debate was Tim Macalieff suggesting to Wilner that Gibby's lack of strong leadership may have cost the Jays some games in the standings. Based on my view of leadership in sports, I tended to agree.

And I disagreed with Wilner who felt the manager has little or no control over the final outcome of the season. If that's the case, then why bother with a manager? Make it a position like umpires who rotate on a game by game basis.

[C Court]

Word salad. Those 'facts' aren't as much facts as they are a waste of everyone's time.

He's moved on from baiting to a different kind of red herring. I don't think anybody would deny that confidence is a major part of success in sports or anything else. But what that has to do with the fact that managers aren't worth very much, can't be largely differentiated from each other (despite baseless claims that a select few somehow have some kind of "master motivational" ability), and are appropriately valued as such by MLB teams, I'm not exactly sure

Did you even hear the debate between Tim and Wilner?

Their conversation had nothing to do with managers not being worth much. That's the red herring. It didn't come up once in the discussion.

It was about the impact that a manager has on the outcome of the season. Tim specifically felt that Gibby's liaisez faire style lacked an important leadership component which cost the Jays games in the standings this year and last.

[s e n s i]

joe maddon is a terrible example to prove your point with the rays likely about to lose a dozen more games than they did last season with virtually the exact same roster

[Randle McMurphy]

Did you even hear the debate between Tim and Wilner?

No, I don't often spend my time listening to either Tim or Sid. They're good for the occasional laugh, but they know little about baseball and have a radio gimmick to maintain.

Their conversation had nothing to do with managers not being worth much. That's the red herring. It didn't come up once in the discussion.

It was about the impact that a manager has on the outcome of the season.

If they were talking about impact, it did. The impact of a manager on a baseball team and their value to that team is essentially the same thing.

Tim specifically felt that Gibby's liaisez faire style lacked an important leadership component which cost the Jays games in the standings this year and last.

I could just as easily say Gibbons' laissez faire attitude (if that's in fact what his managing style is) aided them immensely during their winning stretches. It would have just as much of a basis as what Tim said (which is, to say, none).

[Randle McMurphy]

joe maddon is a terrible example to prove your point with the rays likely about to lose a dozen more games than they did last season with virtually the exact same roster

Maybe he just forgot all his motivational techniques this year!

[Geddy]

There is a lot of understating and overstating the role of a manager on a baseball team going on in this thread. Some of you are making it sound as if the position isn't even needed. Yes, a baseball manager is less involved in an actual game than coaches in other sports, but there are things that go on behind the scenes that affect a players output on the field.

What I find funny is how on Jays blogs, boards etc the same people that bashed Cito are defending Gibbons from similar accusations.

[s e n s i]

and how does micallef (or anyone for that matter) know for sure that gibby's laissez-faire approach hasn't actually been a significant positive for the team and propelled them to 78 wins up to this point instead of say 70? we don't know but that question is just as (in)valid, isn't it?

isn't world series winning skipper terry francona a "leader of men"? a master motivator who maximizes the focus and effort level of his players so that they are mentally prepared to execute and play fundamentally sound baseball over 162 games? why then have the indians (who lead the league in errors) played the most fundamentally unsound defense of any team in baseball this year? even average defense would have sent them to the playoffs.

an infinite amount of questions can be asked about how a manager communicates with his players and the effect it has on a team's record and a grand total of zero can be answered definitively, which renders the entire argument worthless to the nth degree

[s e n s i]

Some of you are making it sound as if the position isn't even needed.

it's essential to have a manager i think. because you need someone who has rapport with his players, extensive knowledge of his players, his opponent, and the countless intricacies of baseball to make important in-game decisions on the fly. you don't need someone who is a supposed "leader of men" or "master motivator" or anything like that in baseball though.

[Randle McMurphy]

There is a lot of understating and overstating the role of a manager on a baseball team going on in this thread. Some of you are making it sound as if the position isn't even needed. Yes, a baseball manager is less involved in an actual game than coaches in other sports, but there are things that go on behind the scenes that affect a players output on the field.

What I find funny is how on Jays blogs, boards etc the same people that bashed Cito are defending Gibbons from similar accusations.

I personally didn't like Cito as a manager because he was tactically awful. It was like watching a worse version of the last month of Gibbons. Had nothing to do with anything else (stuff that isn't possible to speak with any kind of accuracy about).

[Fairview4Life]

From the Joe Maddon leader of men files: the Jays have committed a whopping 3 more errors than the Rays this year, and have exactly the same fielding percentage.

[C Court]

joe maddon is a terrible example to prove your point with the rays likely about to lose a dozen more games than they did last season with virtually the exact same roster

Except your overlooking the trade of David Price and significant injuries to their starting staff, which in turn put pressure on their bullpen:

Injuries have decimated the rotation and created a trickle-down effect that’s burdened the bullpen.

It started when the team placed promising young right-hander Jeremy Hellickson on the disabled list to open the season, then continued when the Rays lost talented left-hander Matt Moore to Tommy John surgery just a few weeks later. Five days after Moore hit the shelf, the Rays lost Alex Cobb to an oblique strain.

Just like that, a team that was supposed to be built around strong starting pitching had lost three-fifths of its projected rotation.

The results haven’t been pretty, as Rays starters have thrown five innings or fewer in 20 of the team’s 40 games, the worst mark in the American League. Unsurprisingly, that failure to go deep into games has taken its toll on the bullpen, as Rays relievers had thrown more innings than any other AL team entering Tuesday’s game. That kind of overuse tends to spark lousy performances, and it has: Tampa Bay has the worst junior circuit numbers on a park-adjusted basis.

You're also ignoring that the Rays are #24 in MLB salary at $81 million and the Jays are #8 at $124 million. Yet Jed Clampett has led the Blue Jays to only 3 more wins than the Rays.

So based on a decimated staff, the trade of their ace and frugal payroll - I'd say Maddon has done a pretty good job despite adversity.

[C Court]

There is a lot of understating and overstating the role of a manager on a baseball team going on in this thread. Some of you are making it sound as if the position isn't even needed. Yes, a baseball manager is less involved in an actual game than coaches in other sports, but there are things that go on behind the scenes that affect a players output on the field.

What I find funny is how on Jays blogs, boards etc the same people that bashed Cito are defending Gibbons from similar accusations.

Good points. Problem is that 'group think' when it comes to discussions like this are so predictable.

You're right, the same people who relentlessly bashed Cito are defending Gibby. Fact is the Jays have woefully under performed and some of that has to fall on the manager.

One of Tim's points was that maybe with a stronger manager the Jays might be in the Wild Card as opposed to 5 games back.

Wilner said simply "it's all on the players", to which I disagree.

[C Court]

and how does micallef (or anyone for that matter) know for sure that gibby's laissez-faire approach hasn't actually been a significant positive for the team and propelled them to 78 wins up to this point instead of say 70? we don't know but that question is just as (in)valid, isn't it?

an infinite amount of questions can be asked about how a manager communicates with his players and the effect it has on a team's record and a grand total of zero can be answered definitively, which renders the entire argument worthless to the nth degree

And how do you (or anyone for that matter) know for sure that Navarro is the laziest player in baseball as you claimed yesterday? Maybe he has physical limitations which negatively impact his performance? Possibly at his age the Jays need him to conserve energy based on his unprecedented workload behind the plate. You don't know. You're not in the locker room.

An infinite amount of questions can be asked about a player's perceived effort or lack thereof and a grand total of zero can be answered definitely, which renders the entire argument worthless to the nth degree.

Except that doesn't stop you from bashing Navarro. So why is the debate invalid when talking about Gibby, but its okay for you to wildly speculate about Navarro?

[s e n s i]

joe maddon is a terrible example to prove your point with the rays likely about to lose a dozen more games than they did last season with virtually the exact same roster

Except your overlooking the trade of David Price and significant injuries to their starting staff, which in turn put pressure on their bullpen:

does this explain how several position players (longoria, loney, myers, escobar) have underachieved offensively?

and the rays pitching has actually been better this year than it was last year, even without the extra 10 starts from david price, matt moore out for the season, and fernando rodney gone

2014: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?p ... &players=0

2013: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?p ... &players=0

[s e n s i]

Except that doesn't stop you from bashing Navarro. So why is the debate invalid when talking about Gibby, but its okay for you to wildly speculate about Navarro?

because navarro is actually a player that we can observe and analyze accordingly when factoring in the numerous stats we have available to validate what we see when we actually watch the games. we unfortunately can't do that when talking about a manager and his effectiveness or lack thereof in communicating with his players.

[Randle McMurphy]

One of Tim's points was that maybe with a stronger manager the Jays might be in the Wild Card as opposed to 5 games back.

It could just as easily have been said that the Jays would be even further away with a different manager and it would have just as much of a basis in fact. You and him are making assumptions and forming opinions based on absolutely nothing.

[Schad]

You are confusing poorly controlled emotions with motivation. They are completely different.

Or you are using 'motivation' as some sort of catch-all for 'whatever ephemeral thing I think causes baseball players to succeed'. Motivation is a word that has a meaning, and that meaning doesn't square with the characteristics you're ascribing to 'good managers'.

I work for a small company. Said company is run by a guy who has a really poor grasp of business, but (thanks to numerous seminars he has attended) a wonderful grasp of the nomenclature favoured by MBA types. He keeps returning from these seminars with new and fresh ideas for how to motivate the sales staff (I'm not sales, if you're curious) and turn around the declining revenues. None of it works. Why? Because the problem isn't a lack of motivation...it's the fact that he keeps buying large quantities of product that no one wants ("I got a great deal on it!"), rather than buying things that people might actually have use for. Eventually, he'll probably end up being forced into selling the business to someone who does buy product that people want, at which the sales staff will suddenly seem far more motivated.

That's the Blue Jays. There are no magic words that will sell off-brand junk, and there are no magic words to turn Kevin Pillar into a competent hitter.

[Mehar]

I just arrived home from an European vacation a couple of days back (good way to forget about another disappointing Blue Jays year). I left just before the Jays seasons ended. Anyways, glad to see a Baltimore-KC ALDS. Makes things a little refreshing. Hopefully the Orioles can go to the World Series- so instead of a "Blue Jay" we can have an "Oriole" in the World Series. That way- at least we can have a "Bird" being representing the AL in the World Series, since the Jays fell flat again.

However- i am just curious if anyone can tell me what Mike Wilner is saying about the Orioles in the World Series? All year long- this guy berated people on twitter and on the radio, who thought the Orioles were a legit team. All Summer-Mike Shillner kept on saying that the Orioles will eventually come crashing down to earth, they are not really that great, and the Jays when healthy, can catch them (LOL). Of course being a homer and apologist he is, being on the Rogers payroll, i am assuming he is using the "injuries" to Lind, EE and Lawrie as the reason why this solid Blue Jays team fell flat again. I am still assuming he is painting a rosy picture for next year, and that Cabrera leaving is not all that bad. I am just curious if he still thinks the Orioles, spending about 30 M less than the Jays on payroll are still a fluke, like he did in 2012?

[DavidT]

"At this stage, with another unsuccessful season starting to grind to its inevitable conclusion, Wilner reminds me of the Monty Python dead parrot skit."

So true one of the many obnoxious things about Wilner is his skewing of stats to try to blur what we are watching with our own eyes.