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The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

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The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#1 » by Santoki » Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:41 pm

Since every thread has basically turned into the same rehash of every conversation I figured I'd take the opportunity to start a thread where people are free to voice their displeasure about ownership and the yes-men they've hired to run our franchise straight back to mediocrity.

Topics you can discuss freely here:

- How Rogers should have opened up the purse strings and signed David Price

- How Rogers should have fired Shapiro and re-signed AA when the Jays made the ALCS

- How the Jays don't want to win signalled by their interests only being linked to minor league players

- How the money available to Shapiro this offseason has been mismanaged

- How the Jays record setting TV numbers should have meant a Dodgers-like payroll this season while the team's window is only 2016

And many more...

So the next time the Jays are linked to a story about X player (and inevitably they will be since it's December) feel free to post the link here and explain your feelings about it.

While made out of frustration at first with the topic of every thread moulding into one discussion, maybe this will actually serve as a way for people to legitimately gripe about anything they want. Enjoy.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#2 » by Xaos » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:05 pm

I still don't understand how you let an "Executive of the year" in Alex Anthopoulos walk away. I'm still pissed off at this, as I'm sure many other Blue Jay fans are.

A payroll of $140 million in 2016 is disappointing after making it to the ALCS the year prior, and seeing how 2016 is the last year to compete for a championship with the core of players we have. Not impressed at all by this. We should be in the top 5 in payroll every year. If Detroit and San Francisco can spend $170+ million we should be able to do so as well.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#3 » by Xaos » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:17 pm

On the topic of payroll, some of this has to be related to our **** Canadian dollar. $140 million in US is approx. $193 million in CDN.

If the CDN dollar was more on par with the US dollar (which it was.. not too long ago.) I don't believe we would be having this conversation.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#4 » by OakleyDokely » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:25 pm

It's been a disaster of an offseason.

*Unable to lock up the executive of the year.
*Rogers cheaping out after fans lined their pockets with 50K in the stands and millions watching on TV nightly.
*Shapiro and Atkins showing zero imagination this offseason and dumpster-diving for players.

All the goodwill created during the run was lost almost immediately. At least we will always have 2014.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#5 » by changes » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:26 pm

Pretty entertaining how this place has turned into a passive aggressive ego pumping gong show, as can be seen by this thread. Hilariously bad place to discuss baseball, good for laughs though.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#6 » by OakleyDokely » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:26 pm

Xaos wrote:On the topic of payroll, some of this has to be related to our **** Canadian dollar. $140 million in US is approx. $193 million in CDN.

If the CDN dollar was more on par with the US dollar (which it was not too long ago.) I don't believe we would be having this conversation.


A big corp like Rogers has a big American reserve. They will use this as an excuse, but the reason they don't spend is that they don't have to.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#7 » by Skin Blues » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:28 pm

Can this be stickied to the bottom of page 4? Thanks.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#8 » by Brew666 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:38 pm

Shapiro has a different approach than AA - instead of creating windows of opportunity, he's trying to create a sustainable team which I completely agree with.

I'm a big fan of Alex and think he has some great qualities but I don't completely agree with his approach. I never liked the idea of using high end prospects as trade bait. It's this method that creates windows versus sustainability because they're gutting our farm system every few years leaving the team with limited depth and creating a scenario where they're putting all their eggs in one basket.

Signing Dickey, Happ, Chavez, Estrada and Smoak isn't going to give you any rise but it makes sense because this team needed depth.

You need a good bench and having Smoak and Cola gives the mgr options. It also gives the GM assets to play with to fill holes as the season goes on in case something unforeseen happens. Signing big time free agents limits your flexibility and ability to make changes to the team.

This team is an offensive juggernaut and more or less needs to be kept in games, that's it. It doesn't need someone to pitcher 8 innings every 5th day. Chavez, Happ, Dickey and Estrada keep you in games. They give the team a chance to win every game/every series. Having a rotation of Price, Stro and AAAA players is creating a situation where the offense has to do produce to win as well as it's taxing on the bullpen.

W/ the payroll and the number of holes this team had, it makes sense short term and long term to go after the players they did and not a big ticket free agent and then sign bit parts.

Winning teams do it with depth and not a few superstars surrounded by replacement level players.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#9 » by OakleyDokely » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:50 pm

Brew666 wrote:Shapiro has a different approach than AA - instead of creating windows of opportunity, he's trying to create a sustainable team which I completely agree with.

I'm a big fan of Alex and think he has some great qualities but I don't completely agree with his approach. I never liked the idea of using high end prospects as trade bait. It's this method that creates windows versus sustainability because they're gutting our farm system every few years leaving the team with limited depth and creating a scenario where they're putting all their eggs in one basket.

Signing Dickey, Happ, Chavez, Estrada and Smoak isn't going to give you any rise but it makes sense because this team needed depth.

You need a good bench and having Smoak and Cola gives the mgr options. It also gives the GM assets to play with to fill holes as the season goes on in case something unforeseen happens. Signing big time free agents limits your flexibility and ability to make changes to the team.

This team is an offensive juggernaut and more or less needs to be kept in games, that's it. It doesn't need someone to pitcher 8 innings every 5th day. Chavez, Happ, Dickey and Estrada keep you in games. They give the team a chance to win every game/every series. Having a rotation of Price, Stro and AAAA players is creating a situation where the offense has to do produce to win as well as it's taxing on the bullpen.

W/ the payroll and the number of holes this team had, it makes sense short term and long term to go after the players they did and not a big ticket free agent and then sign bit parts.

Winning teams do it with depth and not a few superstars surrounded by replacement level players.


For me, there's nothing more overrated than a MLB prospect. The chances of these prospects becoming great players is low. They should be used to acquire proven controllable talent.

Anybody can draft enough players so that their club ranks high on these prospect lists. What's tough is to actually build a team that can seriously compete for a WS title. Say what you want about AA methods, but he put a team on the field that was really close.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#10 » by 0 - 100 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:28 pm

Won't be long until Shapiro is getting abused in the media and by the fans.

Fans aren't going to pack the house every night for a mediocre team which is where this team is headed back to imo.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#11 » by fmradioguy » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:56 pm

Brew666 wrote:Shapiro has a different approach than AA - instead of creating windows of opportunity, he's trying to create a sustainable team which I completely agree with.


Of course you do. Who wouldn't? But there are two myths that some fans have bought into.

The first myth is that AA wasn't about creating a sustainable team.

AA was VERY much about having a sustainable team. It's why, when he took over, he put so much emphasis on scouting in both manpower and monies. The first three years of his tenure as GM were about building up the farm system. Then after the Mets/Florida trades, he rebuilt it again. And if you recall, prior to the 2015 trade deadline, AA's modus operandi was always trading for players with control years. He said it time and again and proved it in his dealings.

That's what made this past trade deadline so unique, because it was the first time he strayed away from it. But there was an opportunity to get the playoff monkey off Toronto's back and he seized it. Would it have marked a change in AA's style going forward? I honestly don't think so. I think he took the chance and it worked. If he hadn't, the monkey would still be there.

The second myth Shapiro is perpetuating is that there is such a thing as "sustainable winning" (and by winning, I mean having a team that is capable of making the playoffs every year) as an organization dependent on youth and third tier free agents/ trade targets.

He's using depth and the farm system as an excuse for why he won't get into top tier free agents, sign star players like Donaldson to long-term contracts, or trade prospects for impact players to put the team over the hump. I get the need for depth. But budgeting to afford two average players at a position is not equitable to having one impact player at the same position.

Based on his history in Cleveland, and the statements and moves made under his watch so far this off-season, there's no reason to believe that his style will change now. You won't see Shapiro sign a top tier free agent, give up prospects for an true impact player unless he can somehow get a Josh Donaldson type with years of control (and even then, I don't think Shapiro would have made that deal if he had been in AA's shoes). If you're always trading for- and focused on- the future, it makes it really hard to win in the "now".

ok. Rant over.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#12 » by Brew666 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:56 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:For me, there's nothing more overrated than a MLB prospect. The chances of these prospects becoming great players is low. They should be used to acquire proven controllable talent.

Anybody can draft enough players so that their club ranks high on these prospect lists. What's tough is to actually build a team that can seriously compete for a WS title. Say what you want about AA methods, but he put a team on the field that was really close.


The issue I have with dealing prospects is not that I fear they'll become the next big thing but more about the ripple effect it creates that we're witnessing right now. It's not a sustainable plan long term because you're always going to be dealing a number of prospects that are higher on your depth chart (more common to deal AAA players v. A players) for one player and it creates holes that will need to be filled and it affects depth.

You're greatly decreasing the likeliness of having players on your roster that are grossly underpaid for their production which I think is important even for a team with a $140 million payroll. To afford a $25 million player you need guys on rookie deals.

Nothing is absolute and I'm not suggesting never deal prospects but a team's development system shouldn't be a trust fund because it's a losing game in the end. Prospects are valuable assets and should be used to acquire talent if needed, but I don't agree with building an entire team through that method especially with the size of their payroll.

If the team had a huge payroll, you can have a team of superstars surrounded by $5-6 million dollar players but you can't do that with the size of their payroll.

I don't want this team to be really close for a year or two, I want them to be really close every year and the only way I see them doing that with their current payroll is to build within.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#13 » by The_Hater » Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:09 pm

Xaos wrote:I still don't understand how you let an "Executive of the year" in Alex Anthopoulos walk away. I'm still pissed off at this, as I'm sure many other Blue Jay fans are.

A payroll of $140 million in 2016 is disappointing after making it to the ALCS the year prior, and seeing how 2016 is the last year to compete for a championship with the core of players we have. Not impressed at all by this. We should be in the top 5 in payroll every year. If Detroit and San Francisco can spend $170+ million we should be able to do so as well.


I think it's been well documented by now that they didn't want AA to leave, he choose not to return.

Your complaints with Rogers are almost universal though. I think $140 million was on the low end of what anyone was expecting after last season and it's disappointing to the fans. Unfortunately a lot of people are taking that specific issue and misplacing their anger with Shapiro and the rest of management. Those people don't control the budget anymore than AA/beston did during their years in charge.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#14 » by The_Hater » Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:13 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:
Brew666 wrote:Shapiro has a different approach than AA - instead of creating windows of opportunity, he's trying to create a sustainable team which I completely agree with.

I'm a big fan of Alex and think he has some great qualities but I don't completely agree with his approach. I never liked the idea of using high end prospects as trade bait. It's this method that creates windows versus sustainability because they're gutting our farm system every few years leaving the team with limited depth and creating a scenario where they're putting all their eggs in one basket.

Signing Dickey, Happ, Chavez, Estrada and Smoak isn't going to give you any rise but it makes sense because this team needed depth.

You need a good bench and having Smoak and Cola gives the mgr options. It also gives the GM assets to play with to fill holes as the season goes on in case something unforeseen happens. Signing big time free agents limits your flexibility and ability to make changes to the team.

This team is an offensive juggernaut and more or less needs to be kept in games, that's it. It doesn't need someone to pitcher 8 innings every 5th day. Chavez, Happ, Dickey and Estrada keep you in games. They give the team a chance to win every game/every series. Having a rotation of Price, Stro and AAAA players is creating a situation where the offense has to do produce to win as well as it's taxing on the bullpen.

W/ the payroll and the number of holes this team had, it makes sense short term and long term to go after the players they did and not a big ticket free agent and then sign bit parts.

Winning teams do it with depth and not a few superstars surrounded by replacement level players.


For me, there's nothing more overrated than a MLB prospect. The chances of these prospects becoming great players is low. They should be used to acquire proven controllable talent.

Anybody can draft enough players so that their club ranks high on these prospect lists. What's tough is to actually build a team that can seriously compete for a WS title. Say what you want about AA methods, but he put a team on the field that was really close.


Prospects are overrated until they turn into stars, just like the 2 players AA traded for Dickey have become.

But it's not the prospects by themselves that are important to team building, it's the cheap contracts they come attached too. You cannot build a roster based primarily on free agents and veterans because they all command much higher salaries. Even the Yankees have found that out with so many overpaid players clogging up their roster.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#15 » by dballislife » Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:22 pm

our franchise dont believe in signing free agents, that is just stupid...ya they make too much, they all do, and ya u dont wanna sign these big contracts...but u know what, sometimes u gotta do it, all teams do, the big ones do it every year...and we're a big and rich market team
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#16 » by fmradioguy » Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:26 pm

The_Hater wrote:Prospects are overrated until they turn into stars, just like the 2 players AA traded for Dickey have become.

But it's not the prospects by themselves that are important to team building, it's the cheap contracts they come attached too. You cannot build a roster based primarily on free agents and veterans because they all command much higher salaries. Even the Yankees have found that out with so many overpaid players clogging up their roster.


The problem is, most prospects don't. Even among the top 100 every year, the vast majority will bust or under-achieve in the majors, relative to their prospect hype. At least with a veteran, you know what you're getting. You can build around that.

I agree about the Yankees style. That isn't the way to go either. There has to be an understanding that you need to build a competitive farm system, but you also shouldn't be satisfied with mediocrity for the sake of "depth" at the sacrifice of competitiveness, nor should you always be hedging the majority of your bets on the "what ifs" that prospects bring. You have a mix of both. I'm simply among those that see Shapiro's organizational philosophies at the opposite end of the Yankees, and that's not good either.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#17 » by -MetA4- » Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:49 pm

fmradioguy wrote:The first three years of his tenure as GM were about building up the farm system. Then after the Mets/Florida trades, he rebuilt it again.


No, he didn't. Stop spreading this absurdly inaccurate LIE.

We didn't "rebuild" anything. Literally all of the major prospects that "rose up" after the Mets/Florida trades (except for Jeff Hoffman) were already in the system PRIOR to either of those two trades being made. Go look it up. Even Anthony Alford who just broke out this past year was drafted and signed prior to either of those two trades being made. Those players were all already in the system, they just ended up maturing into top prospects themselves, so how exactly did he "rebuild" the system? The most important takeaway is that almost all of those players were acquired during the same short time-frame wherein we were able to exploit MLB rules to acquire a chest full of super-talented prospects through draft-pick hoarding and penalty-free international spending. The problem is that those loop-holes have since been closed and further restocking of the system will be infinitely more difficult. Look no further than our most recent draft haul which looks painfully mediocre.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#18 » by Scorpion King » Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:50 pm

I know me and bunch of people will not be going to any Blue Jays till summer only if they are still in contention.

As echoed before all the good will generated in 2015 is gone. I still dont understand why Rogers hired Shapiro ? He has been with Indians for more than 20 years and still has not built a winner. i.e. world champs.

They should have poached someone from St Louis Cardinals or San Franciso Giants front office.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#19 » by Brew666 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:07 pm

fmradioguy wrote:The first myth is that AA wasn't about creating a sustainable team.

AA was VERY much about having a sustainable team. It's why, when he took over, he put so much emphasis on scouting in both manpower and monies. The first three years of his tenure as GM were about building up the farm system. Then after the Mets/Florida trades, he rebuilt it again. And if you recall, prior to the 2015 trade deadline, AA's modus operandi was always trading for players with control years. He said it time and again and proved it in his dealings.

That's what made this past trade deadline so unique, because it was the first time he strayed away from it. But there was an opportunity to get the playoff monkey off Toronto's back and he seized it. Would it have marked a change in AA's style going forward? I honestly don't think so. I think he took the chance and it worked. If he hadn't, the monkey would still be there.


That's fair and maybe I'm shouldn't say AA was building a team with merely a window but I disagree with the window approach which is what people seem to be arguing. People want them to go after high end free agents to win today and the cost of being competitive in the future when they're not worth their contracts. I think that only works if you have a huge payroll and it's not sustainable long term with the Jay's payroll.

fmradioguy wrote:
The second myth Shapiro is perpetuating is that there is such a thing as "sustainable winning" (and by winning, I mean having a team that is capable of making the playoffs every year) as an organization dependent on youth and third tier free agents/ trade targets.

He's using depth and the farm system as an excuse for why he won't get into top tier free agents, sign star players like Donaldson to long-term contracts, or trade prospects for impact players to put the team over the hump. I get the need for depth. But budgeting to afford two average players at a position is not equitable to having one impact player at the same position.

Based on his history in Cleveland, and the statements and moves made under his watch so far this off-season, there's no reason to believe that his style will change now. You won't see Shapiro sign a top tier free agent, give up prospects for an true impact player unless he can somehow get a Josh Donaldson type with years of control (and even then, I don't think Shapiro would have made that deal if he had been in AA's shoes). If you're always trading for- and focused on- the future, it makes it really hard to win in the "now".

ok. Rant over.


I don't think it's a myth building a sustainable winner based on youth and third tier free agents / trade targets, it's how most winners are built imo. The Rays, A's, Royals, Cards, Giants - none of them were built through top tier free agency signings or dealing their prospect pool. All of those clubs draft and develop well and rarely sign players that they think won't be worth their contract in the long term (Pujols and Sandoval). I don't think it's an excuse but the reality of the situation of having a payroll around what the Jays do.

I agree impact players generally have greater value than 2 avg. players but in the case of the Blue Jays, adding 2 SP's over 1 SP makes more sense. The combination of the Blue Jays offense (pitching only needs to keep them in games) and that a SP only pitches every 5th game, I think they're more likely to win more games with this approach.

I also wouldn't look so closely to what he has done in Cleveland, completely different scenario. You wouldn't look at Friedman's track record to predict what he would do in LA and I think you can say the same in this case although going from the Rays to the Dodgers is more extreme. Friedman moved to a massive market with more or less an infinite payroll with the goal of winning the world series. Shapiro is coming to larger market with an increased payroll with the expectation of winning as well. Just b/c he didn't sign a top tier FA when the team has a number of holes doesn't suggest he's going to let players walk if he can sign them to a fair contract.
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Re: The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread 

Post#20 » by jaymeister15 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:23 pm

Scorpion King wrote:I know me and bunch of people will not be going to any Blue Jays till summer only if they are still in contention.

As echoed before all the good will generated in 2015 is gone. I still dont understand why Rogers hired Shapiro ? He has been with Indians for more than 20 years and still has not built a winner. i.e. world champs.

They should have poached someone from St Louis Cardinals or San Franciso Giants front office.


He did build 4 90+ win teams over his tenure as GM there (since 2001--14 years), something the Blue Jays only did once (last year) over that time span.

I was skeptical on the hiring, but the amount of backlash and misinformation has been ridiculous. I feel like I'm defending the guy by simply correcting "facts" people have been spouting and saying it's probably not a good idea to make up your mind on a guy who has been on the job for a month.

If you're not going to buy tickets to go see the best offense in baseball, fine with me, makes it easier to get tickets for the rest of us.

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