Can we talk about Marcus Stroman?

[s e n s i]

The Red Sox were never offering at any of his breaking stuff, they just seemed to be loading up on his 4-seam fastball all day long.

i don't even think he's throwing a 4-seamer right now. seemed to be grooving 2-seam sinkers far too often yesterday and most of the season to be honest and they are getting plastered. he really does need to mix in some high 4-seam FBs to keep hitters honest.

[Skin Blues]

He threw his 4 seamer 15% of the time esterday, which is his second most frequent mark of the season. So far this year he's had a lot more success with his 2-seamer than with his 4-seamer.

[bluerap23]

OP may have a point.

[LLJ]

Seemed like a reasonable time to bump this thread.

6+ runs in 3 of his last 4 games. Is this just a blip in his development, or has the league figured him out? I can't remember who said it, but someone mentioned that he was tipping his pitches. I wouldn't doubt it. The Red Sox were never offering at any of his breaking stuff, they just seemed to be loading up on his 4-seam fastball all day long.

He hasn't had a real slump since 2014. He was due for one anyway.

That said, I always felt the media and fanbase were way too quick to overhype him last year. He wasn't even the best pitcher on the team in the playoffs.

[Raps_Swingman]

His FIP is right in line with the ZiPS/Steamer predictions of about 3.8.

The bloated ERA is attributed to some runners left on that our bullpen ushered home. He's in his first full season after major knee surgery, the slump was coming. That said, I don't think he's been that bad overall, just needs to find consistency with his pitches and a better mix.

[Raps_Swingman]

Also, I just love this article....maybe he should wear #54 again

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/marcus-stromans-absurd-set-of-pitch-comps/

[C Court]

Since Stroman signed, there were questions as to whether a short pitcher can be a consistent MLB starter. Typically, 5' 8" pitchers are rare in the majors and if they make it, they are pitching from the pen. There are very few MLB pitchers under 6' 0".

The basic theory is that with a lack of height and short arms, their release point is too low and flat. Their pitches are easier to hit once the batter becomes familiar with the delivery.

At 5' 8" tall, making him one of only six pitchers shorter than 5' 10" to make a start at the MLB level in the 21st century

5' 9" Tom Flash Gordon of the Royals may be the best indicator of where Stroman's career is headed. Gordon was lights out as a starter for two years and then the league caught up with him. So he transitioned into the pen and became a terrific closer.

[I_Like_Dirt]

5' 9" Tom Flash Gordon of the Royals may be the best indicator of where Stroman's career is headed. Gordon was lights out as a starter for two years and then the league caught up with him. So he transitioned into the pen and became a terrific closer.

I still think Stroman will be a good starter long term, but he may be more of a 2nd or 3rd starter than an ace, although even there those terms are largely meaningless as a group of 2nd starters would make for a top notch pitching staff. But just supposing you're suggestion comes to pass, it would be pretty amazing to see a scenario where, following last season, Osuna and Sanchez wound up being top 3 starters and Stroman wound up being a closer.

[Skin Blues]

It's so lazy to compare pitchers by their height. We're looking at a sample size of 1 and assuming it means something. Why not use the same argument for a 43 year old fat dude that weights 400 lbs? Bartolo is the only one ever and he's pretty good, so I guess by the same logic, that's an ideal body type for a pitcher.

[Kurtz]

It's so lazy to compare pitchers by their height. We're looking at a sample size of 1 and assuming it means something. Why not use the same argument for a 43 year old fat dude that weights 400 lbs? Bartolo is the only one ever and he's pretty good, so I guess by the same logic, that's an ideal body type for a pitcher.

I think you're looking at statistics the wrong way on this one. They're looking at a sample size of every starter who's ever pitched and finding that a miniscule percentage of them were Stroman's height. This doesn't mean Stroman being an ace long-term is impossible, but based on history, improbable.

Same with Bartolo. If out of the tens of thousands of pitchers who've played over the years only one was 400 pounds (don't think Bartolo is quite there yet) then that suggest that Colon is an anomaly.

[Skin Blues]

Right, but he's 5'8" and he's already been a fantastic starting pitcher. Bartolo Colon is 40+ years old and 400 lbs and has been a fantastic starting pitcher. It's just lazy to start comparing him to Flash Gordon. Yeah, he's an anomaly. but he's already here, and he's already done it.

[RalphWiggum]

He is 5'8" and his pitches naturally as a result come in with less change of height than taller pitches have. His margin for error is much less than most pitchers. His misses are more hittable than a 6'5" pitcher and that's never going to change.

[Skin Blues]

His margin for error is much less than most pitchers. His misses are more hittable than a 6'5" pitcher and that's never going to change.

So now we're just making stuff up and claiming it as fact??

[RalphWiggum]

His margin for error is much less than most pitchers. His misses are more hittable than a 6'5" pitcher and that's never going to change.

So now we're just making stuff up and claiming it as fact??

Yes, I'm just making it up that fastballs naturally have more up to down movement when thrown by taller pitchers and generally are harder to hit. It's not a coincidence that very few pitchers are shorter than 6 feet. That doesn't mean Stro isn't just in a short funk and won't regain his form but I 100% stand by the statement that his margin for error on fastballs in not what it would be if he were taller. His mistakes are easier to hit because they are slightly more flat than a taller pitcher. That's not an insult it's physics.

[Skin Blues]

His margin for error is much less than most pitchers. His misses are more hittable than a 6'5" pitcher and that's never going to change.

So now we're just making stuff up and claiming it as fact??

Yes, I'm just making it up that fastballs naturally have more up to down movement when thrown by taller pitchers and generally are harder to hit.

Well, yeah, you are making that up. Why would a higher plane be harder to hit?? Seems to me it would align more with the batter's swing plane, which is always a little bit of an uppercut.

It's not a coincidence that very few pitchers are shorter than 6 feet.

Right, it's not a coincidence. Taller = longer arms = more velocity. Most short pitchers simply can't throw hard enough.

I 100% stand by the statement that his margin for error on fastballs in not what it would be if he were taller. His mistakes are easier to hit because they are slightly more flat than a taller pitcher. That's not an insult it's physics.

You still haven't explained why a lower angle is easier to hit. It doesn't match the swing plane. You can't just say something and then have it be true, you need evidence. Yes, it's rare for a short pitcher to be this successful, but that doesn't give carte blanche to just invent reasons to justify it.

[RalphWiggum]

So now we're just making stuff up and claiming it as fact??

Yes, I'm just making it up that fastballs naturally have more up to down movement when thrown by taller pitchers and generally are harder to hit.

Well, yeah, you are making that up. Why would a higher plane be harder to hit?? Seems to me it would align more with the batter's swing plane, which is always a little bit of an uppercut.

It's not a coincidence that very few pitchers are shorter than 6 feet.

Right, it's not a coincidence. Taller = longer arms = more velocity. Most short pitchers simply can't throw hard enough.

I 100% stand by the statement that his margin for error on fastballs in not what it would be if he were taller. His mistakes are easier to hit because they are slightly more flat than a taller pitcher. That's not an insult it's physics.

You still haven't explained why a lower angle is easier to hit. It doesn't match the swing plane. You can't just say something and then have it be true, you need evidence. Yes, it's rare for a short pitcher to be this successful, but that doesn't give carte blanche to just invent reasons to justify it.

I'm not going to dispute simple physics. A ball that ends at the bottom of the knees thrown by a taller pitcher had to come in at a steeper angle to get there. You're entitled to your opinion but that doesn't change facts and science.

[Skin Blues]

I'm not going to dispute simple physics. A ball that ends at the bottom of the knees thrown by a taller pitcher had to come in at a steeper angle to get there. You're entitled to your opinion but that doesn't change facts and science.

I didn't dispute that it comes in at a steeper angle, I disputed whether his mistakes were harder to hit.

Here's an article from SABR regarding short pitchers. Whole lotta facts and statistics in there, you might be interested in it.

[dballislife]

hes gonna look better as the number 3 under sanchez and osuna for many many years

[C Court]

He is 5'8" and his pitches naturally as a result come in with less change of height than taller pitches have. His margin for error is much less than most pitchers. His misses are more hittable than a 6'5" pitcher and that's never going to change.

There have been very few 5'8" starting pitchers in the MLB over the past 20 to 30 years. Research into "short pitchers" identifies pitchers under 6'0". When you look a little deeper, most of those short pitchers are 5'11", like Colon.

Maybe there is nothing to the theory, but so far Stroman is not disproving it. A streak of a month or two of decent MLB starts is far from conclusive evidence that a 5'8" pitcher named Stroman is a legit MLB starter.

[C Court]

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