R.A Dickey: enough is enough

The_Hater · Post #61 » by **The_Hater** » Mon May 30, 2016 4:25 pm

Dickey had a good month. Finished with a 3.20 ERA which considering the all inherited runs the bullpen keeps allowing is very good.

He'll always be frustrating as a knuckleballer but if this is your 5th starter then you don't really have a huge problem with SP.

C Court · Post #62 » by **C Court** » Mon May 30, 2016 11:28 pm

I still cringe every time I think that for a few mediocre years of RA, we gave up probably a decade of solid pitching from Thor (plus a decent catcher). Ugh.

rarefind · Post #63 » by **rarefind** » Tue May 31, 2016 3:06 am

Centre Court wrote:I still cringe every time I think that for a few mediocre years of RA, we gave up probably a decade of solid pitching from Thor (plus a decent catcher). Ugh.

I take solace by crediting the development of Syndergaard on the Mets. Pretending or thinking he wouldn't have developed in the same manner in the Jays system makes me feel better. To be fair the Mets develop pitchers incredibly well.

dante9988 · Post #64 » by **dante9988** » Tue May 31, 2016 4:12 pm

Dickey as a fifth starter is quite solid, the fact we have to play josh thole with him is what seems to be more of the issue.

The_Hater · Post #65 » by **The_Hater** » Tue May 31, 2016 9:11 pm

dante9988 wrote:Dickey as a fifth starter is quite solid, the fact we have to play josh thole with him is what seems to be more of the issue.

Martin isn't going to play every game anyways so someone needs to play every 5th day. Thole isn't as good with the bat as Navarro but he was the exception as a b/u catcher. Most b/u catchers are weak hitters just like Thole.

Mak · Post #66 » by **Mak** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:41 am

R.A. Dickeys WAR is 0.4 but Josh Thole - 0.7 , not a great combination

Fairview4Life · Post #67 » by **Fairview4Life** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:39 pm

Mak wrote:R.A. Dickeys WAR is 0.4 but Josh Thole - 0.7 , not a great combination

Fangraphs has him at -0.4, and most backup catchers are between -0.5 and +0.5. He has 68 plate appearances so far this year, which puts him something like 51st out of 81 catchers who have played in 2016. He is a backup catcher. They play about as much as Thole does, and produce similar numbers.

Mak · Post #68 » by **Mak** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:02 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
Mak wrote:R.A. Dickeys WAR is 0.4 but Josh Thole - 0.7 , not a great combination

Fangraphs has him at -0.4, and most backup catchers are between -0.5 and +0.5. He has 68 plate appearances so far this year, which puts him something like 51st out of 81 catchers who have played in 2016. He is a backup catcher. They play about as much as Thole does, and produce similar numbers.

Have you seen his numbers?

Fairview4Life · Post #69 » by **Fairview4Life** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:13 pm

Mak wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:
Mak wrote:R.A. Dickeys WAR is 0.4 but Josh Thole - 0.7 , not a great combination

Fangraphs has him at -0.4, and most backup catchers are between -0.5 and +0.5. He has 68 plate appearances so far this year, which puts him something like 51st out of 81 catchers who have played in 2016. He is a backup catcher. They play about as much as Thole does, and produce similar numbers.

Have you seen his numbers?

Yes, I just looked at them and told them to you. He is a backup catcher. He doesn't play very often, and when he does he plays like a backup catcher.

Mak · Post #70 » by **Mak** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:23 pm

You say that he plays like a back up catcher but I don't know if i believe you... this is beyond bad. Maybe back up catchers in AAA are this bad.

Fairview4Life · Post #71 » by **Fairview4Life** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:25 pm

Mak wrote:You say that he plays like a back up catcher but I don't know if i believe you... this is beyond bad. Maybe back up catchers in AAA are this bad.

Well, you used WAR, I went and looked up the WAR of other backup catchers in the league. Thole is on the lower end for guys with his # of plate appearances, but they are all bunched up between that -0.5 and +0.5 number, for the most part. And the majority are around 0 WAR. Fangraphs has all the numbers for you if you want to go look at them.

Mak · Post #72 » by **Mak** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:29 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
Mak wrote:You say that he plays like a back up catcher but I don't know if i believe you... this is beyond bad. Maybe back up catchers in AAA are this bad.

Well, you used WAR, I went and looked up the WAR of other backup catchers in the league. Thole is on the lower end for guys with his # of plate appearances, but they are all bunched up between that -0.5 and +0.5 number, for the most part. And the majority are around 0 WAR. Fangraphs has all the numbers for you if you want to go look at them.

False... i checked randomly 15-20 teams and have not seen one less than -0.2 and Tolhe is -0.4. He is terrible and our record with him in the line up backs it up.

I'm not sure whats going on here...are you trying to say Tolhe is an average back up when it is clear he is not?

Fairview4Life · Post #73 » by **Fairview4Life** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:41 pm

Mak wrote:
Fairview4Life wrote:
Mak wrote:You say that he plays like a back up catcher but I don't know if i believe you... this is beyond bad. Maybe back up catchers in AAA are this bad.

Well, you used WAR, I went and looked up the WAR of other backup catchers in the league. Thole is on the lower end for guys with his # of plate appearances, but they are all bunched up between that -0.5 and +0.5 number, for the most part. And the majority are around 0 WAR. Fangraphs has all the numbers for you if you want to go look at them.

False... i checked randomly 15-20 teams and have not seen one less than -0.2 and Tolhe is -0.4. He is terrible and our record with him in the line up backs it up.

I'm not sure whats going on here...are you trying to say Tolhe is an average back up when it is clear he is not?

I am saying the difference between -0.4 and 0 WAR, where most of the leagues backups sit, is a fairly dumb thing for you to be whining about. He's competing with guys like Steve Clevinger, Ryan Hanigan, Caleb Joseph, Jose Lobaton and Dustin Garneau and a bunch of other names no one cares about. Those are the types of guys who would be replacing Thole. Worrying about not finding plate appearances for Chris Gimenez shouldn't be on your big list of problems to address. Oh no, we let Juan Centino slip away! Juan Centino!

Especially now that Dickey is performing.

Mak · Post #74 » by **Mak** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:45 pm

Problem is Dickey has to perform way better to overcome having just 8 major league hitters in the line up. Thats all.

Fairview4Life · Post #75 » by **Fairview4Life** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:59 pm

Mak wrote:Problem is Dickey has to perform way better to overcome having just 8 major league hitters in the line up. Thats all.

That's baseball. The hitters have to overcome Marcus Stroman.

Mak · Post #76 » by **Mak** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:09 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:
Mak wrote:Problem is Dickey has to perform way better to overcome having just 8 major league hitters in the line up. Thats all.

That's baseball. The hitters have to overcome Marcus Stroman.

That's baseball? We have to accept poor performances just like that? I don't understand this logic. We cant say that combination of Dickey/Tolhe sucks and costing us games because that's baseball? Just let it all roll ...god's will, no need to do anything at all because that's just baseball.

I_Like_Dirt · Post #77 » by **I_Like_Dirt** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:41 pm

Mak wrote:That's baseball? We have to accept poor performances just like that? I don't understand this logic. We cant say that combination of Dickey/Tolhe sucks and costing us games because that's baseball? Just let it all roll ...god's will, no need to do anything at all because that's just baseball.

His point is that Dickey/Thole isn't costing the Jays any more games than Dickey/Clevinger, or Dickey/Lobaton, or Dickey/Garneau. Wait, do you think the Jays would be winning way more games with those combos? Or maybe you think that the Jays can just have allstars at every position and backing up every position too? You seem to want to replace Thole with something more than a backup catcher, and I wholeheartedly concur. Now the Jays just need to go to their starting catcher who can hit tree and pick one of those, because that's far more important to them than the pen or the bats in the starting lineup. The problem is that if the Jays had one of those, they really should replace Russell Martin first. Martin has been absolutely brutal this year. His WAR is -0.1, barely better than Thole's and right in the mix of production for backup catchers.

Mak · Post #78 » by **Mak** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:53 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
Mak wrote:That's baseball? We have to accept poor performances just like that? I don't understand this logic. We cant say that combination of Dickey/Tolhe sucks and costing us games because that's baseball? Just let it all roll ...god's will, no need to do anything at all because that's just baseball.

His point is that Dickey/Thole isn't costing the Jays any more games than Dickey/Clevinger, or Dickey/Lobaton, or Dickey/Garneau. Wait, do you think the Jays would be winning way more games with those combos? Or maybe you think that the Jays can just have allstars at every position and backing up every position too? You seem to want to replace Thole with something more than a backup catcher, and I wholeheartedly concur. Now the Jays just need to go to their starting catcher who can hit tree and pick one of those, because that's far more important to them than the pen or the bats in the starting lineup. The problem is that if the Jays had one of those, they really should replace Russell Martin first. Martin has been absolutely brutal this year. His WAR is -0.1, barely better than Thole's and right in the mix of production for backup catchers.

I'm not sure how good they are at catching knuckle ball but in a vacuum yes Jays would be winning more games with those combos over big enough sample size. I don't want to replace Thole, I'm just pointing out that just looking at Dickey statistics is not a full representation of his value to this team when he comes attached to Thole's hip. That's all.

Fairview4Life · Post #79 » by **Fairview4Life** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:50 pm

Over a big enough sample size isn't going to happen unless Martin gets hurt. That's the point. He is a backup with a backup level of plate appearances. His appearances are just easier to schedule than Ryan Hanigan's or whoever.

Raps_Swingman · Post #80 » by **Raps_Swingman** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:39 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:Over a big enough sample size isn't going to happen unless Martin gets hurt. That's the point. He is a backup with a backup level of plate appearances. His appearances are just easier to schedule than Ryan Hanigan's or whoever.

We should change the title of this thread to RA Dickey's mitt...

In fairness, Thole is doing a thankless job, but he is brutal at the plate, but he only plays every 5 days. So really his effect over a season is confided to roughly 33 games.

I'd love to see Jimenez up here and we're lucky he didn't get picked up when he was DFA'd. But I think unless Martin needs significant time off Thole will be here as long as Dickey is, they just don't want Martin catching the knuckle chuck.