Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide

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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#41 » by ItsThatEasy » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:30 pm

ProfessorJM wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:
ItsThatEasy wrote:I idea that his suicide was "the best thing to do" is sickening.

He has a daughter.

Even while serving a life sentence he could've been there emotionally for his daughter and used his own issues as an example of what NOT to do for her. Growing up fatherless is not ideal. There's plenty of people in prison who turned their life around and remain in contact with their children daily, able to guide them from afar.

It's selfish, plain and simple.


From prison? He'd have been a burden to her, not an asset.


I understand your perspective but who knows if Hernandez could have changed in prison and somehow been a positive influence going forward? Yeah, the realist in me says probably not but I am sure this happens with other criminals dealing with their children.


I'm typically a pessimist myself but I have friends and family whose parents are or were in jail, just the reality of where I grew up.

Those kids weren't naive to what their parents did but they still craved that parental love and as rational people were able to separate the criminal from the parent. Everybody needs to feel loved man, it's just that simple.
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#42 » by ALL HAIL » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:31 pm

The Moose wrote:
ALL HAIL wrote:
lambchop wrote:
Imo it's usually a rational decision based on the fact that you feel that your life is no longer worth living. However, more often that not it is a result of the fear of a certain feeling or situation that might not even have occurred yet. And your mind "tricks" you into believing that dying would be better than having to go through the emotional pain you can already see coming.

If people love you, it's selfish. Period.

Why hurt those who love you? Death and mourning is hard.


And you wouldn't consider it selfish to ask someone to keep living when their own existence is crushingly painful, just for your sake?

You're assuming that suicidal people communicate their plans. My experience tells me that most times they don't.

But to continue in your analogy, if someone I loved communicated with me the fact that they're in pain and want it to end, yes, it would be selfish on my part, after trying to get them help, to deny them an opportunity to be free from their pain.

But, like I said, most people, through my experience, usually commit suicide quietly, without uttering a word to loved ones, which only makes it harder on those that love them because they are strapped with the guilt of "I should've done more."
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#43 » by oaktownwarriors87 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:34 pm

He was emotionally unstable and had low self esteem. Throw money, power, and drugs into the mix and you have yourself a disaster.

R.I.P.
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#44 » by MotownMadness » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:34 pm

Turner4MVP wrote:
MotownMadness wrote:People trying to make excuses for this POS. He wanted to be a gang banger thug type and had no remorse for other people. I think a lot of his hate started when he lost his dad but regardless he's just wired to be violent as hell and I don't feel sorry for him at all. Even his wife helped him try and destroy the gun. Only one I feel bad for his little girl.


So you admit he was wired to be violet as hell. (Something he doesn't have control over.) Yet, you have no compassion for him. Sounds like you are not wired to be intellectually honest about the issue. I feel sympathy for you.

The following is true:

1. Aaron Hernandez is a bad person.
2. Aarron Hernandez didn't choose* to do what he did. (*Free will is an illusion)
3. I feel sympathy for Aaron Hernandez.


Your decision making is comprised of two things -- both the person has nothing to do with. The first is your genetic makeup. The second is who your parents, siblings and friends are. You are shaped by environmental factors and genetics that you have no control over.

Whatever it's is he's a friggin killer so you can feel sorry if you choose but I don't at all and I don't think that makes me a bad person. He serves no purpose to society besides destroying families including his own. If you want to feel sorry for that then go ahead but even he never felt any sort of remorse so I find that pathetic.
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#45 » by mtron929 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:36 pm

Turner4MVP wrote:
righterwriter wrote:He didn't willfully throw it all away. He was a mentally ill large man that could play football at a high level. Someone that is a sociopathic violent criminal usually isn't doing destructive things by choice but by compulsion. Just like a normal person doesn't make the choice to not kill that person for looking at them funny, Hernandez didn't really have the choice NOT to attack someone as that was the way he was wired.

It's absolutely not an excuse, as these people need to either be institutionalized and hopefully rehabilitated from a young age or simply put out the back and shot when all else fails so that innocent people don't have to suffer, but it should bear some greater understanding about psychological afflictions.


Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine REALGM to have the most nuanced, fair, and accurate take on Aarron Hernandez. You are 100% right and people need to do some reading on the illusion of free will. If you consistently make good choices you should be thanking the genetic/environmental lottery.

Think of this thought experiment -- taken from Sam Harris:

Who is the first retired NBA player that comes to your mind?












Did you say John Stockton? Probably not. But, you know who John Stockton is. Did you make the choice to say the player you first thought of? Or did it just automatically come to your attention?


In general, I don't find the typical free will argument to be too interesting. The only interesting thing is the consequence of not believing in free will. And to that end, it seems like in general, people who do not believe in free will tend to be more compassionate about bad actors in society (e.g. Aaron Hernandez, Hitler). After all, if these people never really had any control over their lives, then how can we hate or blame them for anything? But on the same token, I've heard Sam Harris state that he thinks feeling gratitude is consistent even without free will. And I don't get how this follows. I feel like if "control" is an issue, then you should feel the same whether the bad actor is doing bad things or a good actor is good things.
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#46 » by DK-All Day » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:45 pm

His talent went into the wrong hands.

This entire situation is a tragedy.
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#47 » by bmurph128 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:48 pm

ALL HAIL wrote:
The Moose wrote:
ALL HAIL wrote:If people love you, it's selfish. Period.

Why hurt those who love you? Death and mourning is hard.


And you wouldn't consider it selfish to ask someone to keep living when their own existence is crushingly painful, just for your sake?

You're assuming that suicidal people communicate their plans. My experience tells me that most times they don't.

But to continue in your analogy, if someone I loved communicated with me the fact that they're in pain and want it to end, yes, it would be selfish on my part, after trying to get them help, to deny them an opportunity to be free from their pain.

But, like I said, most people, through my experience, usually commit suicide quietly, without uttering a word to loved ones, which only makes it harder on those that love them because they are strapped with the guilt of "I should've done more."



That could be construed as selfish, but life isn't that simple. It's not "selfish if you do, selfish if I ask you not to" - there's a host of factors at play here.

On a human level, if someone came up to you and told you they were contemplating suicide, why would you advise them not to do it? Not for your benefit. Suicide is an extreme overreaction to how our thought processes work - have you ever been running late for something important?

Have a little after-action meeting with yourself afterward - it's interesting to delve into your own mind and see how it works. From a young age, we have extreme overreactions to what we perceive to be negative experiences: "I can't do that, my parents would KILL me"; "If I'm late for work, my boss will KILL me"; "If I don't make that sale, I'm DEAD".

Being late for something REALLY important is where it gets interesting - say, a big meeting at work - you speed like crazy to try to make it on time. Afterward if you analyze your thoughts, you realize that you essentially added risk to your well being for fear of something that, in relation to your life, is worthless. Another way to think about it is you're betting your life savings to win $100.

People that kill themselves take this kind of thought (that exists in all of us) to an extreme. I do agree that it's selfish, and I don't think asking someone to not kill themselves could ever be construed as selfish - because what you're trying to do is show them that their life is worth more than being late for work.

People serving a life sentence in prison is a little different - we weren't in his head so we don't know. He could have thought this a selfless act (daughter won't be ridiculed so much at school; tax payers; daughter having to visit prison to see him) - or he could have been thinking that it really sucked in prison and he didn't want to do it anymore. Either way, asking someone to stay alive is not selfish because people exaggerate their circumstances.
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#48 » by fleet » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:50 pm

Doesn't bother me. He was an animal. Good riddance
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#49 » by bmurph128 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:52 pm

mtron929 wrote:
Turner4MVP wrote:
righterwriter wrote:He didn't willfully throw it all away. He was a mentally ill large man that could play football at a high level. Someone that is a sociopathic violent criminal usually isn't doing destructive things by choice but by compulsion. Just like a normal person doesn't make the choice to not kill that person for looking at them funny, Hernandez didn't really have the choice NOT to attack someone as that was the way he was wired.

It's absolutely not an excuse, as these people need to either be institutionalized and hopefully rehabilitated from a young age or simply put out the back and shot when all else fails so that innocent people don't have to suffer, but it should bear some greater understanding about psychological afflictions.


Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine REALGM to have the most nuanced, fair, and accurate take on Aarron Hernandez. You are 100% right and people need to do some reading on the illusion of free will. If you consistently make good choices you should be thanking the genetic/environmental lottery.

Think of this thought experiment -- taken from Sam Harris:

Who is the first retired NBA player that comes to your mind?












Did you say John Stockton? Probably not. But, you know who John Stockton is. Did you make the choice to say the player you first thought of? Or did it just automatically come to your attention?


In general, I don't find the typical free will argument to be too interesting. The only interesting thing is the consequence of not believing in free will. And to that end, it seems like in general, people who do not believe in free will tend to be more compassionate about bad actors in society (e.g. Aaron Hernandez, Hitler). After all, if these people never really had any control over their lives, then how can we hate or blame them for anything? But on the same token, I've heard Sam Harris state that he thinks feeling gratitude is consistent even without free will. And I don't get how this follows. I feel like if "control" is an issue, then you should feel the same whether the bad actor is doing bad things or a good actor is good things.



My number one principal in life is personal accountability. I don't buy that we don't have free will.

And on a personal level, I don't believe that the environment is the end all be all for how we turn out - reason is simple: people have been in worse situations than Hernandez but chose to be good people.

Stepping back and looking at societal issues as a whole, there are several things that we can do to help people like Hernandez - and I would say the number one would be finding a way to ensure we have better parenting across the country.
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#50 » by Turner4MVP » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:53 pm

mtron929 wrote:
In general, I don't find the typical free will argument to be too interesting. The only interesting thing is the consequence of not believing in free will. And to that end, it seems like in general, people who do not believe in free will tend to be more compassionate about bad actors in society (e.g. Aaron Hernandez, Hitler). After all, if these people never really had any control over their lives, then how can we hate or blame them for anything? But on the same token, I've heard Sam Harris state that he thinks feeling gratitude is consistent even without free will. And I don't get how this follows. I feel like if "control" is an issue, then you should feel the same whether the bad actor is doing bad things or a good actor is good things.


You pose a very interesting question: would it be a net negative or positive for society if everyone thought free will was an illusion. I think if we were more compassionate to sociopaths, psychopaths and people with serious mental health issues then they would have fewer barriers to entry to get help.

There are roadblocks in getting help because of the stigma attached to mental health problems. It's not like the idea of free will prevents people from going on killing sprees. People who do that have mental health issues and they are not rooted in reality. A change of public perception will not change their behavior. But, it might help them get treatment/help before they decide to do it.

I actually think gratitude is amplified without free will -- you have a feeling of, holy ****, how lucky am I that I get to surround myself by such interesting people. Sure, they won the genetic/environmental lottery but I feel grateful that they are now in my life. Not to mention who you surround yourself shapes your own behavior -- so, it would make sense to be grateful that positive influences are now in your life.

I don't view every single person as the same. I feel badly for someone who lost the genetic lottery (in terms of being a bad person) but that doesn't mean I want to surround myself with them. But, it does mean I feel sympathy for them and hope they get help.
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#51 » by mtron929 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:53 pm

MotownMadness wrote:
Turner4MVP wrote:
MotownMadness wrote:People trying to make excuses for this POS. He wanted to be a gang banger thug type and had no remorse for other people. I think a lot of his hate started when he lost his dad but regardless he's just wired to be violent as hell and I don't feel sorry for him at all. Even his wife helped him try and destroy the gun. Only one I feel bad for his little girl.


So you admit he was wired to be violet as hell. (Something he doesn't have control over.) Yet, you have no compassion for him. Sounds like you are not wired to be intellectually honest about the issue. I feel sympathy for you.

The following is true:

1. Aaron Hernandez is a bad person.
2. Aarron Hernandez didn't choose* to do what he did. (*Free will is an illusion)
3. I feel sympathy for Aaron Hernandez.


Your decision making is comprised of two things -- both the person has nothing to do with. The first is your genetic makeup. The second is who your parents, siblings and friends are. You are shaped by environmental factors and genetics that you have no control over.

Whatever it's is he's a friggin killer so you can feel sorry if you choose but I don't at all and I don't think that makes me a bad person. He serves no purpose to society besides destroying families including his own. If you want to feel sorry for that then go ahead but even he never felt any sort of remorse so I find that pathetic.


Well, you can view this from a more global perspective. There are over 5 billion people living on Earth. It would be great if no one was a psychotic killer. But that is a naive idealistic picture. With so many people, certain percentage of people are going to be killers due to the way that they are wired and the way that they were brought up. So while one can get incensed by individual cases, you cannot ask yourself 'what is wrong with these people'? With so many people living in the world, some people are bound to be screw ups. It would be even more weird if no one out of 5 billion people were psychotic killers right?
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#52 » by CountOnAlex » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:59 pm

ALL HAIL wrote:
lambchop wrote:
ALL HAIL wrote:If there are people on this earth who love you, suicide is the ultimate act of selfishness.

I'm not surprised by this at all, because Hernandez seemed to only always think of himself anyway.

He was a punk bitch for taking innocent peoples' lives, and, now, IMO, he's outdone himself, too weak to bear the mental weight of his wife and daughter struggling on the outside, too weak to look at himself in the mirror and see a man who needs repentance.

"Thug" culture is a disease. The idolatry of ignorance isn't, and has never been, "fly".


Imo it's usually a rational decision based on the fact that you feel that your life is no longer worth living. However, more often that not it is a result of the fear of a certain feeling or situation that might not even have occurred yet. And your mind "tricks" you into believing that dying would be better than having to go through the emotional pain you can already see coming.

If people love you, it's selfish. Period.

Why hurt those who love you? Death and mourning is hard.


it's not that black and white man.

some would consider you being the selfish one because you don't want to go through the mourning process after a death. but do you really know and understand what is going on in this persons mind? they're obviously feeling some sort of way that is unexplainable to anyone. it's an ongoing battle inside of them and eventually they say enough is enough.

i worked a long time in a hospital around mental health patients. it's sad and hope one day we can solve all mental health illness quick.
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#53 » by Turner4MVP » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:00 pm

We evolved from monkeys. We had to kill people to survive. And, you guys are surprised that our genetics might not lead to a utopia of everyone singing kumbaya while holding hands? There will always be genetic defects -- but, we can help those people if we show more compassion -- which will then in turn prevent tragedies from happening which kill innocent, good people. Showing compassion for people like Aaron Hernandez doesn't have to be altruistic.
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#54 » by MartinToVaught » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:01 pm

Is there any proof at all that Hernandez was mentally ill, or is this just another example of sports fans making excuses for athletes that they'd never make for anyone else?

And even if he was mentally ill, it's no excuse for what he did. Playing the mental illness card to excuse violent criminals' actions only furthers the stigmas that neuro-atypical people have to live with in society.
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#55 » by TurboTitan » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:04 pm

This is sad, he deserved to suffer a painful death
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#56 » by Turner4MVP » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:06 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:Is there any proof at all that Hernandez was mentally ill, or is this just another example of sports fans making excuses for athletes that they'd never make for anyone else?

And even if he was mentally ill, it's no excuse for what he did. Playing the mental illness card to excuse violent criminals' actions only furthers the stigmas that neuro-atypical people have to live with in society.


You got me. I am making excuses for someone killing 4+ people because I watch football. I think it's pretty obvious Aarron Hernandez had mental health issues.
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#57 » by shawn_hemp » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:08 pm

he killed it for me in fantasy that one year. I want to say it was his 2nd to last season in the NFL

no pun intended with the "killed it" expression, just realized how that sounds
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#58 » by binjumper » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:09 pm

Turner4MVP wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:Is there any proof at all that Hernandez was mentally ill, or is this just another example of sports fans making excuses for athletes that they'd never make for anyone else?

And even if he was mentally ill, it's no excuse for what he did. Playing the mental illness card to excuse violent criminals' actions only furthers the stigmas that neuro-atypical people have to live with in society.


You got me. I am making excuses for someone killing 4+ people because I watch football. I think it's pretty obvious Aarron Hernandez had mental health issues.


Dude had gang ties and that's not a mental health issue. People like to label mental health on anyone who doesn't seem normal. Some people are just like that and they are well aware. The guy killed people who got him mad at a bar.
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#59 » by ALL HAIL » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:10 pm

CountOnAlex wrote:
ALL HAIL wrote:
lambchop wrote:
Imo it's usually a rational decision based on the fact that you feel that your life is no longer worth living. However, more often that not it is a result of the fear of a certain feeling or situation that might not even have occurred yet. And your mind "tricks" you into believing that dying would be better than having to go through the emotional pain you can already see coming.

If people love you, it's selfish. Period.

Why hurt those who love you? Death and mourning is hard.


it's not that black and white man.

some would consider you being the selfish one because you don't want to go through the mourning process after a death. but do you really know and understand what is going on in this persons mind? they're obviously feeling some sort of way that is unexplainable to anyone. it's an ongoing battle inside of them and eventually they say enough is enough.

i worked a long time in a hospital around mental health patients. it's sad and hope one day we can solve all mental health illness quick.

I feel you man, but it is that simple if you actually care about those you love.

Any suicidal thought I may have ever had was quickly quelled at the thought of the pain it would cause my family.

I care for them too much to cause them unnecessary pain.

But people who commit suicide are too self absorbed to consider others.

Suicide, in mostly all cases, means you're weak and selfish. I'm sorry.
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Re: OT: Former Pat's Tight End Hernandez Commits Suicide 

Post#60 » by Turner4MVP » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:12 pm

binjumper wrote:
Turner4MVP wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:Is there any proof at all that Hernandez was mentally ill, or is this just another example of sports fans making excuses for athletes that they'd never make for anyone else?

And even if he was mentally ill, it's no excuse for what he did. Playing the mental illness card to excuse violent criminals' actions only furthers the stigmas that neuro-atypical people have to live with in society.


You got me. I am making excuses for someone killing 4+ people because I watch football. I think it's pretty obvious Aarron Hernandez had mental health issues.


The guy killed people who got him mad at a bar.


Does that sound like a mentally stable person?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/former-patriots-adviser-admits-team-knew-aaron-hernandez-had-issues/

According to a Wall Street Journal story from 2013, shortly before the 2010 draft, a scouting service prepared a psychological profile available to every team that described Hernandez as "living on the edge of acceptable behavior,"
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