Ultimate Offseason...

[Sheeeeed]

So with regards to not liking randle because he is a small 4 who can rebound and face up only

How is he such a different prospect than griffin and why was one rated so higher than the other?

Also can randle get to griffin's level

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Randle is nowhere near as explosive of a athlete as Griffin.

Combine this fact with the short wingspan, and his below the rim game I don't like Randle as a top 10 pick.

[The Penguin]

I guess the more I see Stephenson the less I like him too... but whats everyone see in Hayward? He put up decent numbers on a bad team... and you know he barely shot 30% on his 3's... and is he even big enough to guard 3's?

Hayward has been oddly inconsistent. He's shot 47%, 34%, 41% and then 30% from three. I don't know how to explain that really. It adds up to a career 37% from 3 though. He is at least tall enough to guard 3's; he is 6'8" tall. Not a great defender by any means, but he isn't short.

There's lies, damn lies and statistics. Stats are a useful tool, but lacking an understanding of what factors could change stats makes them borderline useless. What changed between the first 3 years of Hayward's career vs last year? Did he suddenly forget how to shoot? Or did he go from playing with Al Jefferson demanding double teams, Millsap doing his thing and vets like Foye & Mo Williams to playing with Kanter/Favors/Burks/Burke?


One big difference between Hayward and Singler - Hayward averaged 5 assists per 36 minutes, Singler averaged 1. I think Hayward is much more useful as a playmaker and creator than Singler, to the point where comparison between the two basically stops at "they are both 6'8" white guys". He's a high BBIQ guy, which we need, and he can help space the floor. Saying "why would we pay him 9-10 mil when we can pay Singler $1 mil?" shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation to the point of ignorance.

[The Penguin]

I don't like Smart, but he's been discussed many times elsewhere, so I'll refrain from reiterating that argument.

But Austin hasn't been discussed much, so let me say that I think he'll be a bust. He's really weak, but he doesn't have a great frame to add more weight. I think he'll get pushed around in the pro's. He's also really slow though, so even if he does add strength, it'll only further slow him down. He's a terrible rebounder for a big man, and his steals numbers are bad too. He was billed as a shooter (with one glass eye), but he hasn't shot well from 3 or the free throw line. His scoring efficiency was terrible, easily the worst among centers in this draft, even if you just compare them on 2pt% and ignore all the 3's he took. His steals numbers are poor for a center too. The only thing that he does better than most of the centers in this draft is pass (not amazing) and block shots (a lot of them).

If you're looking for an actual stretch center, we should go with Alec Brown, who was very accurate from 3 (over 40% for the last two seasons on good volume), or that guy from Western Michigan, who we can pick up without a draft pick, because Austin does not fill that role well (28% and 30% from three). Or just stick with Jorts. If you want an extreme shot-blocker, we should go with Jordan Bachynski, or maybe Sim Bhullar, who both did it better, but can at least rebound the ball decently.

It's a 2nd round pick. It's got a 15-20% chance of turning into a useful player. I just picked a stretch big that draft express had around our 2nd round. Don't miss the forest from the trees.

[E-Z]

The OP is assuming players want to come to Detroit. That's the problem.

[wallace72]

Lance Stephenson, Josh Smith & Brandon Jennings

lol wow

The league would have to change rules just for our team to have 3 balls on court at all times.

There's literally not enough shot attempts and chemotherapy of the cancer that it'll bring to the locker room and the fans watching at home.

There is a posibility we see some fighting but not on court,
in the lockerroom.
At least we have players who show some "attitude".

[Clarity]

So with regards to not liking randle because he is a small 4 who can rebound and face up only

How is he such a different prospect than griffin and why was one rated so higher than the other?

Also can randle get to griffin's level

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Randle isnt in the same atmosphere as Griffin athletically but Randle's post game is probably better today than Blakes if were being honest.

[Clarity]

Ultimate off season (without moving up):

1)Dump Smennings, Jerebko opts out
2) Draft Smart & Isaiah Austin
3) Sign Gordon Hayward & DeJuan Blair


Smart/Siva/Bynum
KCP/Singler
Hayward/Datome/Mitchell
Monroe/Blair
Drummond/Harrellson/Austin


We do that and I'm thrilled

That would be outstanding, that team would be much better than it is currently.

[Notanoob]

I guess the more I see Stephenson the less I like him too... but whats everyone see in Hayward? He put up decent numbers on a bad team... and you know he barely shot 30% on his 3's... and is he even big enough to guard 3's?

Hayward has been oddly inconsistent. He's shot 47%, 34%, 41% and then 30% from three. I don't know how to explain that really. It adds up to a career 37% from 3 though. He is at least tall enough to guard 3's; he is 6'8" tall. Not a great defender by any means, but he isn't short.

There's lies, damn lies and statistics. Stats are a useful tool, but lacking an understanding of what factors could change stats makes them borderline useless. What changed between the first 3 years of Hayward's career vs last year? Did he suddenly forget how to shoot? Or did he go from playing with Al Jefferson demanding double teams, Millsap doing his thing and vets like Foye & Mo Williams to playing with Kanter/Favors/Burks/Burke?


One big difference between Hayward and Singler - Hayward averaged 5 assists per 36 minutes, Singler averaged 1. I think Hayward is much more useful as a playmaker and creator than Singler, to the point where comparison between the two basically stops at "they are both 6'8" white guys". He's a high BBIQ guy, which we need, and he can help space the floor. Saying "why would we pay him 9-10 mil when we can pay Singler $1 mil?" shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation to the point of ignorance.

I know what happened this season- he was made the first option and couldn't handle it. I'm wondering what happened in year 2 though.

But yeah, Hayward is a rich man's Singler- faster, superior ball handler, much better passer. You'll note that I never said anything along the lines of "they're both 6'8" white guys" or "why pay him when we have Singler". That said, I am a bit concerned that we'd have to really overpay him to get the Jazz to not match. He's a complementary player, not a guy who you pay near-max money.

[Notanoob]

It's a 2nd round pick. It's got a 15-20% chance of turning into a useful player. I just picked a stretch big that draft express had around our 2nd round. Don't miss the forest from the trees.

I figured that was all the research that you did, so I figured that I'd let you know you could do better in the 2nd round. There are other stretch bigs in the late part of the draft (or potentially undrafted) who I think will be better than Austin. A 28% 3 point shooter doesn't really qualify as a stretch big.

[GreekAlex]

I guess the more I see Stephenson the less I like him too... but whats everyone see in Hayward? He put up decent numbers on a bad team... and you know he barely shot 30% on his 3's... and is he even big enough to guard 3's?

Hayward has been oddly inconsistent. He's shot 47%, 34%, 41% and then 30% from three. I don't know how to explain that really. It adds up to a career 37% from 3 though. He is at least tall enough to guard 3's; he is 6'8" tall. Not a great defender by any means, but he isn't short.

There's lies, damn lies and statistics. Stats are a useful tool, but lacking an understanding of what factors could change stats makes them borderline useless. What changed between the first 3 years of Hayward's career vs last year? Did he suddenly forget how to shoot? Or did he go from playing with Al Jefferson demanding double teams, Millsap doing his thing and vets like Foye & Mo Williams to playing with Kanter/Favors/Burks/Burke?


One big difference between Hayward and Singler - Hayward averaged 5 assists per 36 minutes, Singler averaged 1. I think Hayward is much more useful as a playmaker and creator than Singler, to the point where comparison between the two basically stops at "they are both 6'8" white guys". He's a high BBIQ guy, which we need, and he can help space the floor. Saying "why would we pay him 9-10 mil when we can pay Singler $1 mil?" shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation to the point of ignorance.

I agree with everything you said and it's clear Sigler isn't the player Hayward is, but my contention is that spending what it takes for Utah not to match is a poor allocation of funds for a complimentary player of his caliber.

If we're looking for a shooter/team player on a non-rookie contract I'd find someone along the lines of Marco Bellinelli that the Spurs are paying under 3M/season.

Or if we're looking for a 3D guy I'd sign Trevor Ariza to a more reasonable deal before committing so much to Hayward to get Utah to not match. I believe Ariza could be had for 3 years 20-24M vs. Hayward at 4 years and 40+ M

[sc8581]

4yrs $52M probably gets Hayward, Monroe will be more like $60M and I believe Gordon fits better with Drummond and KCP as well. To me it's a no-brainer, if we can get Hayward for any amount we do it, he would bring so much more to this team than Moose.

Smart?
KCP
Hayward
Smith
Drummond

[Clarity]

4yrs $52M probably gets Hayward, Monroe will be more like $60M and I believe Gordon fits better with Drummond and KCP as well. To me it's a no-brainer, if we can get Hayward for any amount we do it, he would bring so much more to this team than Moose.

Smart?
KCP
Hayward
Smith
Drummond

No team with Josh Smith as the #1 option is ever going anywhere.

The locker room would have issues too, guys like KCP, Smart & Hayward have a much much different mind set than guys like Josh Smith.

Love Hayward though & he would have been a phenomenal fit with the Monroe/Drum core we ruined last Summer.

[Kstegall21]

• Trade PF/SF Josh Smith to LAL for Jordan Hill on a Sign-and-Trade.
• Trade PG Brandon Jennings to NYK for Iman Shumpert.
• Trade #8 overall pick to PHX for their #14 and #17 picks.
• Let Billips, Stuckey, Jerekbo, and Villanueva walk.
• Sign Lionel Hollins as Head Coach

Free Agents:
PF/C Jordan Hill
PF/C Greg Monroe
SF Luol Deng

Draft:
#14-Tyler Ennis PG Syracuse, a pass first PG that could develop into all-star in the future.
#17-TJ Warren SF N.C. State, a prolific scorer who could use a year in the D-League to fine-tune his jumper and defense.
#39-Jordan McRae SG Tennessee, can develop into a great rotational player in the future.

Roster:
PG- Tyler Ennis
Will Bynum
Peyton Siva

SG- Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
Iman Shumpert
Jordan McRae

SF- Luol Deng
Kyle Singler
Luigi Datome
TJ Warren

PF- Greg Monroe
Jordan Hill
Tony Mitchell

C- Andre Drummond
Josh Harellson

This team is very young but we will be a lot better off than we were this year. We will have better floor-spacing, better defense, and for the first time in awhile we will have veteran leaders on the court that will push our young guys to give their best effort every night. I think Jordan Hill will elevate both Monroe's and Drummond's play, and if Luol Deng can take TJ Warren under his wing and teach him how to become a great defender we could have a real star on our team in the future.

[joseph mamah]

I have a cap question for any capologists on the board and i figure ill ask it here since its an off-season thread.

If we use whatever cap-space that we have this off-season and then re-up Moose to take us to the cap limit would we still have the MLE to work with, or is the MLE only for teams that are already at or over the cap to begin with?

[Notanoob]

• Trade PF/SF Josh Smith to LAL for Jordan Hill on a Sign-and-Trade.

I don't think that the interest from the Lakers is legitimate.

• Trade PG Brandon Jennings to NYK for Iman Shumpert.

I don't think they go for it, especially if Melo walks. They'll probably just trade Chandler and rebuild.

• Trade #8 overall pick to PHX for their #14 and #17 picks.

They've got the 18th pick, not the 17th pick, but yes, let's do this.

• Let Billips, Stuckey, Jerekbo, and Villanueva walk.

I really hope JJ opts out.

• Sign Lionel Hollins as Head Coach

Eh, I'd rather grab someone else. We could do worse though.

Free Agents:
PF/C Jordan Hill
PF/C Greg Monroe
SF Luol Deng

Hill is a solid addition, and I want to keep Monroe, but no thanks to Deng. He did nothing to improve Cleveland, and he's aging and cannot shoot worth a lick.

Draft:
#14-Tyler Ennis PG Syracuse, a pass first PG that could develop into all-star in the future.

Like hell he could become an All-Star. He has literally no scoring game. He's ground bound and has a poor first step. He can't get to the rim at all and his outside shot is not impressive (35% is below league average, and this is from the college line). He shot 28% on his floaters (which he shot regularly since he struggles to get past people) and only 50% at the rim, which is abysmal. In addition to his athletic deficiencies, he's coming from Syracuse, which basically ensures that he'll suck on defense, since that zone has produced nothing but awful defenders in the NBA. He's got a great A/TO ratio, but that's it, and that is no guarantee of NBA success. Jose Calderon is his best case scenario, but I think he's a career backup.

#17-TJ Warren SF N.C. State, a prolific scorer who could use a year in the D-League to fine-tune his jumper and defense.

His shot is awful-he shot 29% from 3 and 69% from the line. It needs more than 'fine-tuning'. He's the most unconventional scorer I've seen, getting a ton of floaters and such. He's terrible at drawing fouls for a guy who does all of his scoring inside the arc. I'm not sure how he's going to translate his scoring game into the NBA. Additionally, he's an abysmal passer; a .48 A/TO ratio is embarrassing for a guy who is supposed to be a wing, I don't care how bad his team was. Worse off, he's a tweener in the worst sense of the word. He's too short to have a prayer of guarding PFs with his awful wingspan and light weight, and he's far too slow to keep up with any SF in the NBA of consequence. That is, if he actually starts trying to play defense.

PPG is a stat that translates the worst among all of them from college to the pro's. If we're drafting a scorer, he has to bring a lot more to the table than Warren does. I don't want any part of him.

#39-Jordan McRae SG Tennessee, can develop into a great rotational player in the future.

He's got a decent chance of going undrafted, and he's fairly old, so not a whole lot of upside. His outside shot isn't impressive (34% and 35% from 3 the last two years, on high volume too), and he isn't a great ball handler or passer. Despite his exceptional length and good effort on defense, he has terrible steals numbers. I wouldn't mind picking him up really, but I think that there are potentially better players, or better upside players who we could get in the second round.

[Kstegall21]

You can say what you want about Tyler Ennis but he is, IMO of course, the best true point guard in this draft. He is the kind of point guard that you win championships with. People are falling in love with these score first point guards, and not any of them have won a championship yet. He takes care of the ball, and he puts his teammates in situations where he knows they can succeed. Those two things, along with being a leader, are the most important things a point guard should be able to do. I also think you're wrong about TJ Warren. This kid is going to be special in the future. I think his shooting numbers had a lot to do with him feeling the need to jack up a lot of contested shots because of his team not being very good. His free throw percentage, which you can't blame on his teammates, needs to drastically improve though. When watching his film he seems to have good shooting mechanics so I'm pretty sure if he puts his mind to it he can become a more than capable shooter from the outside. I know Luol Deng isn't a home run type pick up, but he is a great team player and he also brings veteran leadership that this team desperately needs.

[MotownMadness]

You can say what you want about Tyler Ennis but he is, IMO of course, the best true point guard in this draft. He is the kind of point guard that you win championships with. People are falling in love with these score first point guards, and not any of them have won a championship yet. He takes care of the ball, and he puts his teammates in situations where he knows they can succeed. Those two things, along with being a leader, are the most important things a point guard should be able to do. I also think you're wrong about TJ Warren. This kid is going to be special in the future. I think his shooting numbers had a lot to do with him feeling the need to jack up a lot of contested shots because of his team not being very good. His free throw percentage, which you can't blame on his teammates, needs to drastically improve though. When watching his film he seems to have good shooting mechanics so I'm pretty sure if he puts his mind to it he can become a more than capable shooter from the outside. I know Luol Deng isn't a home run type pick up, but he is a great team player and he also brings veteran leadership that this team desperately needs.

I think Ennis could be nothing more than average in the NBA. Reminds me of a Kendall Marshall type. And Warren can score inside but his jump shot is pretty ugly.

[DCintheD]

Ultimate Offseason...

- trade Smith for anything (expirings, shorter deals, whatever it takes to get him off this team without giving up an asset, its very possible)

- draft Vonleh. I see this guy as a potential steal at 8. A perfect compliment to Drummond when once he develops.

- re-sign Monroe. Give the the Monroe/Drummond front court a real chance but groom Vonleh to eventually take over Monroe's spot. Monroe/Drummond/Vonleh rotation has sick potential.

- offer Ariza a competitive deal. He can shoot the 3 and play defense on the wing. two things we're desperate for. Does he leave a good thing in Washington for us? probly not, but a good offer can get him to consider. something like 4 years/30M might do it and is worth it for us.

- trust KCP to continue to develop his game and hope he holds down the SG role.

- sign a shooter like Anthony Morrow.

- sign a backup point guard to challenge Jennings everyday. someone like Ray McCallum or even a vet like Sessions. I'd keep Jennings for now and hope the next coach builds a system that he conforms to, if not his contract expires soon enough.

- hopefully Hollins is the next coaching hire. He's helped build what Memphis is today. He is the most logical choice out there of those with head coaching experience. If not him, then someone better.

Jennings, (McCallum/Sessions), Bynum, Siva
KCP, (Morrow)
Ariza, Singler
Monroe, Vonleh, Mitchell
Drummond

[Pharaoh]

Said it before & will say it again:

It all begins off the floor. Hire a GM that isn't out of touch, hire a legit coach for the first time in 5 years and then look at the roster.

For all the junk Smith & Jennings cop on here it can't be forgotten that they made the playoffs with their previous teams and neither of those teams were "stacked" (we can argue how good the Hawks were some other time)

Drummond 32/Monroe 16
Monroe 16/Smith 32
????? 30/Singler 18
KCP 30/????? 18
Jennings 32/???? 16

Jorts, Mitchell, Jerebko, Siva & Bynum round out the roster so who fills in the ????? is vital

#8 fills one void
A quality free agent fills another

How we fill the 3rd void is what I'm struggling with. We could sign and trade Stuckey to a team that simply doesn't have the MLE available to them (tax payers) but that requires eating salary, which impacts our $$$ to sign a quality free agent to fill the other void.

We could trade Jerebko...

Or Bynum...

The new GM will have options that don't begin with trading Smith and end with trading Jennings though



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[Notanoob]

You can say what you want about Tyler Ennis but he is, IMO of course, the best true point guard in this draft. He is the kind of point guard that you win championships with. People are falling in love with these score first point guards, and not any of them have won a championship yet. He takes care of the ball, and he puts his teammates in situations where he knows they can succeed. Those two things, along with being a leader, are the most important things a point guard should be able to do.

He's really the only true PG in this draft class, everyone else is a scoring guard or combo guard IMO, but I don't like his defense (zone+poor athleticism), and he doesn't do enough outside of pass. He isn't Jason Kidd or even Ricky Rubio, so he needs to be some sort of threat to score, but he isn't. He's just too one-dimensional right now.

I also think you're wrong about TJ Warren. This kid is going to be special in the future. I think his shooting numbers had a lot to do with him feeling the need to jack up a lot of contested shots because of his team not being very good. His free throw percentage, which you can't blame on his teammates, needs to drastically improve though. When watching his film he seems to have good shooting mechanics so I'm pretty sure if he puts his mind to it he can become a more than capable shooter from the outside.

We can agree to disagree. They guy shot really poorly from the line his freshman year too, I'm not going to hold out hope that he becomes a shooter. I see him as a tweener who can't guard anyone.

I know Luol Deng isn't a home run type pick up, but he is a great team player and he also brings veteran leadership that this team desperately needs.

I was happy to add him, but the way that he simple did nothing for Cleveland turned me off, especially since the Bulls didn't seem to miss a beat without him. It seemed like he wasn't an impact player.

- sign a backup point guard to challenge Jennings everyday. someone like Ray McCallum or even a vet like Sessions. I'd keep Jennings for now and hope the next coach builds a system that he conforms to, if not his contract expires soon enough.

I wish Ray was a free agent, I'd love to bring him home. He can really play. I'm sure I'm just being a homer but I think that he could be our starting point guard of the future, especially if he can nail down his outside shot. Oh well.