KCP-Rising Allstar Challenge

[Dirtgrain]

Let's dumb it down a bit here for you.

[DetroitSho]

[quote="Manocad"]His Verlander argument certainly is wrong as well. Verlander has obviously shown since then that he believed he had the ability to blow hitters away with power pitches when he really didn't due to lost movement on his pitches. I don't think for one second that Verlander was thinking, "I don't care if the hitters blast my pitches; I'm going to hit 100 mph because that's what impresses." That's complete and utter crap. No pitcher that gets knocked around is considered impressive by players or fans regardless of his velocity. Verlander wasn't dogging it for what he felt were entertainment purposes; he made bad pitching decisions.

Now, to get back to the concept of why the NBA all star game is so bad and how it could be improved, the NBA all star game is most definitely a blatant lack of defensive effort and Harlem Globetrotterish offense based on, in simple terms, the players not giving a **** about the outcome. I don't know who they think they're entertaining but based on the plummet in ratings, it sure as hell isn't NBA fans.[/quotehttp://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/justin-verlander-all-star-game-national-league-beats-american-league-detroit-tigers-star-still-entertains-071012

Except it's EXACTLY what happened and I remember actually watching him say as much on live TV. But I forgot, I'm not a baseball fan. You can go have breakfast now.

[DetroitSho]

Damn link didn't post right

[thesack12]

I don't really think the pertinent issue here is whether or not awarding world series HFA to the winning league actually changed the product of the all star game. As has been pointed out already the MLB all star game has been enjoyable to actually tune in and watch for years. As Mano stated its really the only all star game of the major sports leagues that doesn't seem like a straight up gimmick for money grab purposes, that is masquerading as something "for the fans."

The issue to me is whether or not have HFA on the line made the MLB all star more interesting and intense from both a fan perspective and from MLB organizations (players, coaches, management, etc). Personally, I really don't see how an argument could be made that the rule change didn't accomplish increasing interest. It gives baseball fans another reason to watch, besides just wanting to see a collection of the better players in the league play a game. It gives fans a reason to invest in that game, as it actually has potential to effect the prospects of their favorite team. From an MLB perspective if those people involved have any shred of competitive nature in them and want to achieve the ultimate goal of winning a ring, they are definitely going to bring it on all star night. HFA is a very tangible perk, that is also pretty valuable.

Also, MLB is the only major sport where there are legitly different leagues with different rules competing for the same championship. Factoring that in, its difficult to equate records of american league to national league teams. Its just not a pure compare/contrast situation. So, I personally don't think that W/L records should determine HFA in baseball. As I see it, the best way to determine that is exactly what MLB did. Hold a direct competition of each league's best against each other.

To conclude, I understand why some people (especially baseball purists) don't like the stipulation. But baseball purists are an odd brand, they hate the DH in the american league and loathe inter-league play. But both of those things have obviously been universal successes and helped grow interest and exposure to the sport. This HFA all star game stipulation is probably not going to see that type of impact, but like the DH and inter-league play its here to stay.

[thesack12]

Back on topic:

Sure, it was an exhibition so not much stock should be put into it. But, KCP's horrid shooting night should be at least a little concerning. That game features minimal defense, and he still couldn't put the ball in the hole. Not even considering friday night, its obvious that he has struggled with his shot ever since he entered the league.

Shooting is a very translatable skill from college to the pros. For being billed as a shooter coming out of Georgia, he sure as hell hasn't shown that to be the case. And for a guard, dude is god-awful from the free throw line. To me, its starting to look like KCP being a shooter is a myth in much of the same fashion that Austin Daye was a shooter.

It can't really be considered a shooting slump, because he has never shown he can shoot at a high level on a consistent basis. Besides even if you want to label it a slump, its going 1.5+ seasons now. Thats one helluva slump.

[Manocad]

Damn link didn't post right

Let me educate you on how to properly post a link, image, whatever.

Notice how when you quote, underline or bold something, there's a [whatever] before the text and a [/whatever] after the text? It works the same way for links too. You need to make sure it appears that way before you submit the post.

Now that we've got that bit of rocket science cleared up, let me quote some text from the very link you provided.

“Obviously, I don’t want to give up runs.'

Make no mistake: Verlander cared. His attitude was cavalier, not careless. This is the same guy who starts each game with the idea that he’s going to throw a no-hitter.

“That’s obviously not who he is,” White Sox slugger Adam Dunn said. “You throw that (start) out the window. He didn’t have his location. That was it. You won’t see that again as long as he pitches.”

There's more there but that's enough for me to make my point. That reads to me like a guy who cares about winning, wants to play well in the all star game while also being entertaining, but had a bad pitching performance. And I'll let you in on a little secret...

Spoiler:

Pssst...by definition you're not dogging it IF YOU'RE THROWING AS HARD AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN.

Now, let's AGAIN get back to that little matter of the NBA all star game which for some strange reason you seem to have abandoned discussing. Caring about winning and wanting to play well while still being entertaining doesn't represent the players in the NBA all star game. They're completely hot dogging it and if the alley oop attempt from half court sails over the backboard and hits a lady from Toledo in the face, big whoop. I say that you give them something to play for and the game will be better.

I ate your breakfast for you. It was delicious.

[Blkbrd671]

Back on topic:

Sure, it was an exhibition so not much stock should be put into it. But, KCP's horrid shooting night should be at least a little concerning. That game features minimal defense, and he still couldn't put the ball in the hole. Not even considering friday night, its obvious that he has struggled with his shot ever since he entered the league.

Shooting is a very translatable skill from college to the pros. For being billed as a shooter coming out of Georgia, he sure as hell hasn't shown that to be the case. And for a guard, dude is god-awful from the free throw line. To me, its starting to look like KCP being a shooter is a myth in much of the same fashion that Austin Daye was a shooter.

It can't really be considered a shooting slump, because he has never shown he can shoot at a high level on a consistent basis. Besides even if you want to label it a slump, its going 1.5+ seasons now. Thats one helluva slump.

1.5 seasons into KCP's career and your defining him as a player. I get the concern but if you think KCP hasn't had any amazing shooting nights you haven't been watching. Austin daye had maybe 1 game that made pants move, KCP has had multiple games.

His allstar performance was horrid, but i'm not putting much into a meaningless game. i was just suprised he had some pg skills

[thesack12]

Back on topic:

Sure, it was an exhibition so not much stock should be put into it. But, KCP's horrid shooting night should be at least a little concerning. That game features minimal defense, and he still couldn't put the ball in the hole. Not even considering friday night, its obvious that he has struggled with his shot ever since he entered the league.

Shooting is a very translatable skill from college to the pros. For being billed as a shooter coming out of Georgia, he sure as hell hasn't shown that to be the case. And for a guard, dude is god-awful from the free throw line. To me, its starting to look like KCP being a shooter is a myth in much of the same fashion that Austin Daye was a shooter.

It can't really be considered a shooting slump, because he has never shown he can shoot at a high level on a consistent basis. Besides even if you want to label it a slump, its going 1.5+ seasons now. Thats one helluva slump.

1.5 seasons into KCP's career and your defining him as a player. I get the concern but if you think KCP hasn't had any amazing shooting nights you haven't been watching. Austin daye had maybe 1 game that made pants move, KCP has had multiple games.

His allstar performance was horrid, but i'm not putting much into a meaningless game. i was just suprised he had some pg skills

If you insist on cherry picking individual games/performances you can make a case for just about anything you are trying to argue. But the fact of the matter is, KCP has proved that his shooting leaves a lot to be desired on a consistent basis. Can he change that, well sure. But he really hasn't shown anything thus far to lead you to believe that to be the case. He's played heavy minutes from jump, so he's had plenty of ample opportunity. So you can't say he hasn't been afforded opportunity or given a chance to develop a rhythm.

Saying the boy has shown he's not a shooter thus far, is not defining him as a player. He has other attributes to his game that make him a useful player. But if he never develops reliable shot, the caliber of player he is and his ceiling is pretty limited, especially for a SG.

Also if you aren't going to put stock into the negative (bad shooting) from Friday night, I don't see how you can put any into something positive (perceived playmaking.)

[mattao313]

Spoiler:

Back on topic:

Sure, it was an exhibition so not much stock should be put into it. But, KCP's horrid shooting night should be at least a little concerning. That game features minimal defense, and he still couldn't put the ball in the hole. Not even considering friday night, its obvious that he has struggled with his shot ever since he entered the league.

Shooting is a very translatable skill from college to the pros. For being billed as a shooter coming out of Georgia, he sure as hell hasn't shown that to be the case. And for a guard, dude is god-awful from the free throw line. To me, its starting to look like KCP being a shooter is a myth in much of the same fashion that Austin Daye was a shooter.

It can't really be considered a shooting slump, because he has never shown he can shoot at a high level on a consistent basis. Besides even if you want to label it a slump, its going 1.5+ seasons now. Thats one helluva slump.

1.5 seasons into KCP's career and your defining him as a player. I get the concern but if you think KCP hasn't had any amazing shooting nights you haven't been watching. Austin daye had maybe 1 game that made pants move, KCP has had multiple games.

His allstar performance was horrid, but i'm not putting much into a meaningless game. i was just suprised he had some pg skills

If you insist on cherry picking individual games/performances you can make a case for just about anything you are trying to argue. But the fact of the matter is, KCP has proved that his shooting leaves a lot to be desired on a consistent basis. Can he change that, well sure. But he really hasn't shown anything thus far to lead you to believe that to be the case. He's played heavy minutes from jump, so he's had plenty of ample opportunity. So you can't say he hasn't been afforded opportunity or given a chance to develop a rhythm.

Saying the boy has shown he's not a shooter thus far, is not defining him as a player. He has other attributes to his game that make him a useful player. But if he never develops reliable shot, the caliber of player he is and his ceiling is pretty limited, especially for a SG.

Also if you aren't going to put stock into the negative (bad shooting) from Friday night, I don't see how you can put any into something positive (perceived playmaking.)

Well he did shoot 38% in November and 36% in December from 3 and just under 35% on the season. He takes 5 a game for a second year player ain't bad could improve of course but not out right horrible. I think he should drive more and try to cut out the mid range shots is my complaint.

[thesack12]

Well he did shoot 38% in November and 36% in December from 3 and just under 35% on the season. He takes 5 a game for a second year player ain't bad could improve of course but not out right horrible. I think he should drive more and try to cut out the mid range shots is my complaint.

In January he shot 32% from distance. Thats three straight months of declining performance. He has rebounded a bit in February, at 34%. It just shows that he can't consistently put the ball in the hole, and his best isn't too good. Mid 30's percentages, is ok but nothing to hang your hat on. Especially if he camps out beyond the arc. His shot from everywhere inside the arc is just bad.

Wanting to limit his mid range shot frequency only confirms his status as a shaky shooter. A SG without a mid range game, isn't too valuable. As for driving more, that sounds good but then we have to consider that would likely mean that he gets to the free throw line more often. Normally that would be a good thing, but in KCP's case, not so much. For a guard <70% from the stripe is borderline unacceptable.

Main point being, that he is not a consistent offensive threat at any capacity. He's not a playmaker, uber athletic, or a slasher so he won't ever become a threat if he doesn't develop a reliable shot. Up to this point, these eyes have seen nothing to suggest that he will develop into a consistently strong shooter.

[thesack12]

Well he did shoot 38% in November and 36% in December from 3 and just under 35% on the season. He takes 5 a game for a second year player ain't bad could improve of course but not out right horrible. I think he should drive more and try to cut out the mid range shots is my complaint.

In January he shot 32% from distance. Thats three straight months of declining performance. He has rebounded a bit in February, at 34%. It just shows that he can't consistently put the ball in the hole, and his best isn't too good. Mid 30's percentages, is ok but nothing to hang your hat on. Especially if he camps out beyond the arc. His shot from everywhere inside the arc is just bad.

Wanting to limit his mid range shot frequency only confirms his status as a shaky shooter. A SG without a mid range game, isn't too valuable unless he is elite in some other facet of the game. As for driving more, that sounds good but then we have to consider that would likely mean that he gets to the free throw line more often. Normally that would be a good thing, but in KCP's case, not so much. For a guard <70% from the stripe is borderline unacceptable.

Main point being, that he is not a consistent offensive threat at any capacity. He's not a playmaker, not uber athletic, nor a slasher so he won't ever become a threat if he doesn't develop a reliable shot. Up to this point, these eyes haven't seen much to suggest that he will develop into a consistently strong shooter.

[Blkbrd671]

If you insist on cherry picking individual games/performances you can make a case for just about anything you are trying to argue. But the fact of the matter is, KCP has proved that his shooting leaves a lot to be desired on a consistent basis. Can he change that, well sure. But he really hasn't shown anything thus far to lead you to believe that to be the case. He's played heavy minutes from jump, so he's had plenty of ample opportunity. So you can't say he hasn't been afforded opportunity or given a chance to develop a rhythm.

When i look at the type of shots he takes, i have no problem. which is by far more important than simply looking at a stat. He shows a knack for hitting shots in space and is at least average behind the 3 point line only 1.5 season's into his career, which also includes him a rough beginning of the season. Your making him out to be a beyond horrible shooter which is barely the case. KCP's only fault is he didn't meet your expectations, in reality he has the trust of our coaches , and they have been encouraged by his play.

Also if you aren't going to put stock into the negative (bad shooting) from Friday night, I don't see how you can put any into something positive (perceived playmaking.)

Quite simply

i've seen KCP have horrid shooting nights

I haven't seen KCP run the point

[Blkbrd671]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF916Pyk4Bs[/youtube]

So we could have drafted this guy

[thesack12]

If you insist on cherry picking individual games/performances you can make a case for just about anything you are trying to argue. But the fact of the matter is, KCP has proved that his shooting leaves a lot to be desired on a consistent basis. Can he change that, well sure. But he really hasn't shown anything thus far to lead you to believe that to be the case. He's played heavy minutes from jump, so he's had plenty of ample opportunity. So you can't say he hasn't been afforded opportunity or given a chance to develop a rhythm.

When i look at the type of shots he takes, i have no problem. which is by far more important than simply looking at a stat. He shows a knack for hitting shots in space and is at least average behind the 3 point line only 1.5 season's into his career, which also includes him a rough beginning of the season. Your making him out to be a beyond horrible shooter which is barely the case. KCP's only fault is he didn't meet your expectations, in reality he has the trust of our coaches , and they have been encouraged by his play.

This is actually one of the more concerning things for me. If his poor shooting was primarily a product of bad shot selection, for young players that is something that can be coached and cleaned up pretty easily. But if you take mostly good shots, and they don't fall that speaks to a bigger issue. That issue simply being he can't put the ball in the hole.

If the best thing you can say about his shooting is he is average beyond the arc, then thats not exactly a glowing endorsement. A second year SG with < 40 FG %, < 35 3 pt %, < 70 FT % . Of those numbers FG% is exact same, 3 % is slightly up, and FT% is way down from his rookie season. So thus far he isn't exactly showing us that he has some great promising future.

That entire draft was abysmal, so I knew going in that the chances Detroit would come out of it with a key core player were pretty slim. So, I never had any type of lofty expectations. But when the wrap on him out of Georgia was that he was a shooter, it tends to led you to believe that he would perform better in that facet by now. As for the coach's view of him, I would be hesistant to say they are sold or even highly encouraged with KCP. After all this team isn't exactly oozing wing talent, and the main FA SVG brought in was at his same position. Said FA has been predictably underwhelming, but thats another topic for another thread.

[Blkbrd671]

This is actually one of the more concerning things for me. If his poor shooting was primarily a product of bad shot selection, for young players that is something that can be coached and cleaned up pretty easily. But if you take mostly good shots, and they don't fall that speaks to a bigger issue. That issue simply being he can't put the ball in the hole.

You can't coach decision making, you can put players in position so the decision is easier, but its takes many guys, BJ, Jr smith, etc. years before they understand what a good and bad shot is. Its not something that simply jsut comes. KCP has shown the ability right out of college to take good shots, which shows maturity. Whats more encouraging is he's shown the ability to make difficult shots.

1.5 season's into KCP's career, he's struggling to put the ball in the hole, which is on par with alot of other sophomores

[thesack12]

This is actually one of the more concerning things for me. If his poor shooting was primarily a product of bad shot selection, for young players that is something that can be coached and cleaned up pretty easily. But if you take mostly good shots, and they don't fall that speaks to a bigger issue. That issue simply being he can't put the ball in the hole.

You can't coach decision making, you can put players in position so the decision is easier, but its takes many guys, BJ, Jr smith, etc. years before they understand what a good and bad shot is. Its not something that simply jsut comes. KCP has shown the ability right out of college to take good shots, which shows maturity. Whats more encouraging is he's shown the ability to make difficult shots.

1.5 season's into KCP's career, he's struggling to put the ball in the hole, which is on par with alot of other sophomores

Sure you can coach up decision making such as shot selection with young players. All you have to do is bench them anytime they start getting gun type tendencies. Sooner or later they will get the message, and if they don't then you probably don't want that type of guy on your team anyways. As for a guy like Jennings you can live with bad shot selection to a certain extent, because he is an excellent slasher and solid playmaker. KCP doesn't bring a whole lot to the table on the offensive end if his shot isn't falling.

But all that is beside the point, because like you said shot selection isn't KCP's biggest issue anyways.

As for the second part, I couldn't agree more. As I stated that '13 draft was terrible. There won't be too many quality players emerging as core players on good teams from that draft. I'm not interested in waiting for that "breakout season" in the same fashion that so many did with Rodney Stuckey every year for about 5 consecutive seasons. I'm not saying throw KCP on the scrapheap, just saying that he probably isn't a core caliber player.

[Blkbrd671]

Sure you can coach up decision making such as shot selection with young players. All you have to do is bench anytime they start getting gun type tendencies. Sooner or later they will get the message, and if they don't then you probably don't want that type of guy on your team anyways. As for a guy like Jennings you can live with bad shot selection to a certain extent, because he is an excellent slasher and solid playmaker. KCP doesn't bring a whole lot to the table on the offensive end if his shot isn't falling.

that's not coaching that's creating a incentive that can really effect the player either way.

But all that is beside the point, because like you said shot selection isn't KCP's biggest issue anyways.

Not really , your indicating that good shot selection isn't something of value, and i totally disagree, and there are clear examples where a player with poor shot selection is concerning.

As for the second part, I couldn't agree more. As I stated that '13 draft was terrible. There won't be too many quality players emerging as core players on good teams from that draft. I'm not interested in waiting for that "breakout season" in the same fashion that so many did with Rodney Stuckey every year for about 5 consecutive seasons. I'm not saying throw KCP on the scrapheap, just saying that he probably isn't a core caliber player.

I am not arguing that it wasn't a terrible draft, but regardless of if it was a good or poor draft, you can't define players as "quality" core players on a good team, 1.5 seasons into their career. You make it seem that in a good draft we'd have 15 superstars by their sophmore season, which is completely false. If you want to take a stance as to who these players are and forever will be , then that's fine, but by taking that stance so early in development, your setting yourself up for a 4 course meal of CROW.

We won't know until 1-2 years from now if KCP will become what our FO envisions, but the fact that our FO is encouraged by his development and has mentioned him as part of our core, would indicate he is a core caliber player

[joedumars1]

I 100% believe KCP will have a very long career. Not sure if he will be that starting SG or the SG coming off the bench, but I see him having a very long career

[thesack12]

Sure you can coach up decision making such as shot selection with young players. All you have to do is bench anytime they start getting gun type tendencies. Sooner or later they will get the message, and if they don't then you probably don't want that type of guy on your team anyways. As for a guy like Jennings you can live with bad shot selection to a certain extent, because he is an excellent slasher and solid playmaker. KCP doesn't bring a whole lot to the table on the offensive end if his shot isn't falling.

that's not coaching that's creating a incentive that can really effect the player either way.

But all that is beside the point, because like you said shot selection isn't KCP's biggest issue anyways.

Not really , your indicating that good shot selection isn't something of value, and i totally disagree, and there are clear examples where a player with poor shot selection is concerning.

As for the second part, I couldn't agree more. As I stated that '13 draft was terrible. There won't be too many quality players emerging as core players on good teams from that draft. I'm not interested in waiting for that "breakout season" in the same fashion that so many did with Rodney Stuckey every year for about 5 consecutive seasons. I'm not saying throw KCP on the scrapheap, just saying that he probably isn't a core caliber player.

I am not arguing that it wasn't a terrible draft, but regardless of if it was a good or poor draft, you can't define players as "quality" core players on a good team, 1.5 seasons into their career. You make it seem that in a good draft we'd have 15 superstars by their sophmore season, which is completely false. If you want to take a stance as to who these players are and forever will be , then that's fine, but by taking that stance so early in development, your setting yourself up for a 4 course meal of CROW.

We won't know until 1-2 years from now if KCP will become what our FO envisions, but the fact that our FO is encouraged by his development and has mentioned him as part of our core, would indicate he is a core caliber player

1) Controlling a player's minutes due to any number of factors, is absolutely a part of coaching. There is no legit argument to be made on the contrary.

2) As I have already stated, when evaluating a player's shooting prowess its more concerning that he is not knocking down "good shots" than it would be if he was jacking up and missing a number of bad shots. If we were debating Bball IQ, then that would be a different story.

3) If a player's future is core caliber for a good team, that player not only shows that ability and promise early on but he also shows tangible growth. KCP is a player that has always been in the rotation since arriving in Detroit. So again, you can't mitigate his underwhelming performance on lack of opportunity. KCP has not shown tangible growth (namely in his shooting.) Again, I reiterate we aren't talking about a guy who has played limited minutes thus far. There is such a thing as holding onto and waiting on someone too long. I personally haven't seen much to suggest that his ceiling is too high.If you have, thats fine.

And as for what the FO has said about him, what are they going to say? We don't value him, and he's not considered part of our future? C'mon man!!!

[joedumars1]

Sure you can coach up decision making such as shot selection with young players. All you have to do is bench anytime they start getting gun type tendencies. Sooner or later they will get the message, and if they don't then you probably don't want that type of guy on your team anyways. As for a guy like Jennings you can live with bad shot selection to a certain extent, because he is an excellent slasher and solid playmaker. KCP doesn't bring a whole lot to the table on the offensive end if his shot isn't falling.

that's not coaching that's creating a incentive that can really effect the player either way.

But all that is beside the point, because like you said shot selection isn't KCP's biggest issue anyways.

Not really , your indicating that good shot selection isn't something of value, and i totally disagree, and there are clear examples where a player with poor shot selection is concerning.

As for the second part, I couldn't agree more. As I stated that '13 draft was terrible. There won't be too many quality players emerging as core players on good teams from that draft. I'm not interested in waiting for that "breakout season" in the same fashion that so many did with Rodney Stuckey every year for about 5 consecutive seasons. I'm not saying throw KCP on the scrapheap, just saying that he probably isn't a core caliber player.

I am not arguing that it wasn't a terrible draft, but regardless of if it was a good or poor draft, you can't define players as "quality" core players on a good team, 1.5 seasons into their career. You make it seem that in a good draft we'd have 15 superstars by their sophmore season, which is completely false. If you want to take a stance as to who these players are and forever will be , then that's fine, but by taking that stance so early in development, your setting yourself up for a 4 course meal of CROW.

We won't know until 1-2 years from now if KCP will become what our FO envisions, but the fact that our FO is encouraged by his development and has mentioned him as part of our core, would indicate he is a core caliber player

1) Controlling a player's minutes due to any number of factors, is absolutely a part of coaching. There is no legit argument to be made on the contrary.

2) As I have already stated, when evaluating a player's shooting prowess its more concerning that he is not knocking down "good shots" than it would be if he was jacking up and missing a number of bad shots. If we were debating Bball IQ, then that would be a different story.

3) If a player's future is core caliber for a good team, that player not only shows that ability and promise early on but he also shows tangible growth. KCP is a player that has always been in the rotation since arriving in Detroit. So again, you can't mitigate his underwhelming performance on lack of opportunity. KCP has not shown tangible growth (namely in his shooting.) Again, I reiterate we aren't talking about a guy who has played limited minutes thus far. There is such a thing as holding onto and waiting on someone too long. I personally haven't seen much to suggest that his ceiling is too high.If you have, thats fine.

And as for what the FO has said about him, what are they going to say? We don't value him, and he's not considered part of our future? C'mon man!!!

I'm almost positive his minutes were all over the place most of last year.

Do you not see him being able to develop into a Avery Bradley type for a contender? I'm not sure if that would be for us, but I could easily see him being that. His going to have a successful career, solely based off his effort and Defense, that he is still improving on. I'd hope his shot get's better, I think it will.